Dune vs. Warhammer 40k

Duncan Idaho uses personal shields as a tactic to fight the Honored Matres in Chapterhouse, but, other than that, shields weren't used since Leto II banned them to stop just that type of occurrence.

Think of the result brought on by the interaction of a heighliner size shield and a laser. Plus it would be indeterminate where the explosion would occur... very dangerous indeed.

 

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They are scared of Warp energy, and no other. Warp energy is their biggest enemy. Proof Dune psychics would work like that?

Burden of proof that they can do it to all planets.

Oh really? Do they have any ships in the teratons to exatons range in Dune? Because that's what it would take to compare.

Okay, Great Unclean Ones are here. Can't stop them, now can you?

Old Ones? You mean those less advanced than the Necrons?

Ask anyone, they will state that Inertialess Drives are instantaneous.

No, they are going this fast in the Eisenhorn series.

Wouldn't work on Space Marines or any other Imperium super soldier. They might even be subjugated to server Slaanesh.

What? I have no idea what that means.

Too bad, they would have problems trying to use it at all.

Creating Warp Storms over a planet would most likely destroy it.

Oh really? Liber Chaotica, the book that has the most about the Chaos Gods, states that Tzeentch created the universe and all within as a game for he and his brothers to play. While its true that there was a time the CG’s didn’t exist, once they came into being they had always been there. Slannesh is a case in point, he’s always existed, but it was the Eldar’s hedonism that spawned him. So, Leto II would obey them or die.

Tzeentch created the universe as a game, so Leto II is probably going to get massacred.

More like he'll come back as powerful as ever.

Necron souls have been eaten by C'Tan already. There is no way to save them.

 

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Again, you make a statement without citation. I cited a source that says psychic energy.

That wouldn't be feasible, but key planets can be hidden.

Petatons are in that range. The weapons originated from the thinking machines (according to Brian Herbert's two book finale). With the thinking machines penchant for mass production, it would be simple for them to launch enough to the exatons.

Still neutralized through their ability to modify their own body chemistry.

Yet the Necrontyr needed the C'tan to combat them... hmm... tech isn't always the most important thing, as I have said before.

Ok, after reading up on it I realize one flaw; inertialess drives make it so a Necron ship can accelerate to infinite velocities. Crossing the galaxy in an instant. Crossing the universe in an instant. Crossing universes in... oh... that's a barrier only Dune's foldspace engines can cross (Hunters of Dune)). I don't think the Necrons can even get to the Dune universe. The Warp, on the other hand, is an alternate universe full of psychic energy; it would be reasonable to conclude that only Warp-faring races could cross the universal barrier.

I was asking about the Eldar rate of movement, as you compared their speed with Space Marines.

Explain why not.

Miles Teg

Explain.

Letting the Warp do it is much different than channeling the psychic energy by themselves in order to do it. However, your example is a nice work around.

1. Of course they have a mythology, the Eldar Gods have one too; the mythos is a construct that may or may not have factual foundations. The Lexicanum states:

2. Leto II isn't just one man. He contains the consciousnesses of all of his ancestors back to the beginning of humankind:

Again, that's mythology. As the Chaos Gods are given power by emotions or ideas, the multitude of consciousnesses within Leto II would be too valuable to them to outright destroy and perhaps it would be their downfall. In the least, Leto II has the capability to handle the energies of the Warp without the repercussions to which psykers fall prey.

(Sorry about the following... originally, it was an actual response, but it turned into an epic crossover idea.)

With his prescience, he knew what to do about this conflict back when he began the Golden Path. He had yet to fulfill his prophesied four deaths; the last one remained, the death of reason. Before the Chaos Gods understand his true intent, he imprints his consciousness on the Warp by physically entering it, then using it to smite the C'tan, and then collapsing it in on itself so that humanity and the rest of the races can no longer manifest a collective well of psychic energy. His own collective consciousness would be annihilated in the collapse (never to be brought back in a ghola), thus fulfilling the final death of the God Emperor.

The psychic back-lash would have varying degrees of effect on psychic users who were drawing upon the Warp at the time; the Emperor of Mankind receives the greatest blow and Terra itself, as well as the system, is drawn into the Warp's collapse. Within the Warp, the Emperor gathers all the power he can and freezes the collapse with the help of the Chaos Gods while Daemons scream throughout the universe and within the Warp as they are consumed to assist their creators.

It is then that Leto's consciousness and his own finally make contact. Two human Gods at the end of the universe. Yet, Kralizec was never so narrow as to pertain to a single universe. This would determine the fate of humanity throughout the multiverses.

The Emperor curses Leto for the doom he has brought upon humanity, "You have destroyed us! Humanity holds no hope for survival without a guiding hand to steer them!"

So much was now lost, everything the Emperor had worked for was for naught. He could lash out at this human God of another universe, but at the cost of the Warp and them with it. It seemed as if Leto was mocking him with silence.

"We can still avert this disaster if you help restore the Warp," pleads the Emperor. "There is still hope, together we can bring order to Chaos! We are the Gods of humanity, without us they will fall into an abyss that will destroy them."

Leto remained silent amidst the whirlwind of energy.

"Do you understand the humanity I've left behind? The sentimentality I've destroyed within? The cruelty I have inflicted? All for the purpose of forging an enduring human legacy that is now left to whither and perish because of you," laments the Emperor. His disposition suddenly shifts to regret as he continues, "I have razed the soul of humanity so that the shell of our race can find its immortality. Perhaps, my actions have made us no different than the Necrontyr..."

"I have done much of the same in my lifetime, my friend," Leto's voice breaking through the Emperor's self-reflection. "I did it knowing this day would come. By possessing humanity, you contain it within that boundary; the fate of it rests solely upon one source, and if that source falters then all of humanity falters. Our roles were never to be the Gods of humanity. No, we are a lesson, a cruel lesson imprinted upon humanity. Never again should their fate be held by a single source and all the vulnerability inherent to it. You have performed your role and prepared them for what is next. Here is my gift to you, see what I foresaw so many years ago."

Leto embraced the Emperor's consciousness and their minds linked. At last, the Emperor saw the Golden Path in its terrible glory. The Warp quivered as he began to understand.

"Let go, my friend, and regain your humanity as I have done," Leto called to him.

The Emperor let go and the Warp collapsed.

Without the Emperor, the Imperium collapses and causes humanity to fall into a cruel and chaotic period of anarchy. With the infusion of foldspace ships, the humans of the Warhammer universe explode upon the multiverse in their own Scattering.

Where the Terran system once was, a star blooms into being from nothingness shortly after the Warp's collapse. It shines with a fiery golden intensity and a small no-ship emerges from its core. The ship's foldspace engines activate and it is never seen in this universe again. In the aftermath of the Warhammer Scattering, the star would gain the name "Womb of the StarChild," and it is said that the star will shine as long as humanity endures. The star would continue to burn with its golden light long after darkness consumes this universe.


(Dune wins through idealogical conquest

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Following the nature of the Warp and Chaos, he would be given power by the only reasonable source: the religion that surrounds him. Oh wait, the Bene Gesserits would be manipulating that to no end, especially if they gain his DNA to make a ghola.

If that were true, then the living metal would have nothing to move it. Plus, the Lexicanum says differently:

I'd think it would be possible to restore their memory... or at least give them a false memory. Ghola awakening techniques might be utilized for the former.

 

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No, that's the power of Necron weaponry, at least. Teratons-exatons means they are at least teratons to exatons.

Space Marines who can consume poisons and shrug off diseases were plagued by the Unclean One's diseases, they probably can create any disease they desire.

Necrontyr + C'Tan = Necrons.

That's always an unfair assumption. They most certainly must cross it for there to be a fight.

Oh yes, in "Wolf at the Door", a Dark Eldar Archon proves to be moving like a blur when the Space Marines try to hit him. In Eisenhorn, one Haemoncolous(sp?) kills many Inquisitors before being hit.

Space Marines have shown no sexual desires, and even if they could show some, their zealous worship to the Emperor is far more important to them.

Using the Warp is not easy, because it backfires on you.

They're the ones who created the Warp Storm in the first place. Doing that is pretty impressive. In Eisenhorn again, many many many.... many Alpha Plus Psykers combined are capable of closing the Eye of Terror which is some thousand light years in diameter.

Mythology, sure, but the Warp is timeless, so that could work, like in "Bender's Big Score".

In comparison to every emotion and souls of every living creature in the universe? That seems pretty weak in comparison, no offense.

Tzeentch is pretty much omniscient or something like it. He is the intelligent god. I might not have the proof, but his minions have shown the ability to see across the galaxy. Plus, how is Leto II going to kill every life form in the universe?

Incorrect, the Necrodermis page states that the metal has a C'Tan inside it.

I think not, I mean, C'Tan DO eat souls.

 

Thinking Machine weaponry has proven to be in the petatons.

teraton<petaton<exaton

what's in the middle, there? Dune can deliver, my friend.

Space Marines likely have an aggressive immune system similar to Species 8472. Reverend Mothers have conscious control over their biochemistry which allows them to adjust and neutralize toxins.

Granted.

I don't think it is unfair at all. The less Deus Ex Machina applied to allow for the vs to happen, the better. So, what is there in either setting that allows them to bridge universes? Dune has foldspace engines, 40k has the Warp. That seems fair to me.

Eldar are on par with Honored Matres then. Miles Teg is faster.

The idea behind sexual bonding is that it digs into the animal nature of a man and subjugates that. Generally, the unconscious has far more to say than the conscious. Although, you may be correct. So, how does humanity repopulate?

Prescience is a beautiful thing.

Interesting.

Didn't watch it so I don't know your reference.

 

Source? I mean, Dune fans have admitted Dune is behind in terms of firepower.

Yes, but the Great Unclean Ones can infect an entire to do their bidding, like zombies, with the ability to still use weapons. The disease was killing them before the Greater Daemon was released, but when he was, the dead and dying started to attack the Space Marines. It implies Unclean Ones use diseases that aren't natural, but supernatural.

It is, you're leaving out an entire force. There should be a portal to each universe to be fair.

What are all of his feats then?

The Space Marines have thinking machines used on them so they learn everything about the Imperium, and they are also forced to kill all other wishes rather than serving the Imperium. Ragnar, while doing one of those weird simulations had to fight sexual pleasure with a Slaanesh figure. Slaanesh is the god of pleasure so the figure would be sexually pleasing. As for repopulating, the Imperium has sexual intercourse, as they always had.

Well, it's a weird thing. Let me make an example:
Tattoo is discovered on a guy > later we see someone from the future attach it to the original person who had it > a clone dies, and they take off the tattoo > the guy from the future goes back to the past and puts it on the guy who originally had it. So, it makes no sense.

C'Tan virtually control the Necron technology, if the Necrons did rebel, they would lose all their technology and die or become the Necrontyr again.

 

Oh, admittedly, with out thinking machine weaponry Dune wouldn't have anything beyond stoneburners and holtzman shields used as weapons. My sources are combined from Heretics, where there are weapons that melted the crust of Arrakis at the end of it, and that the Honored Matres got the obliterators from the thinking machines as learned in Hunters of Dune and Sandworms of Dune.

A Bene Gesserit Reverend Mother is called a witch for a reason.

The fair thing is to let each universe use what it has without external influences. It just happens that both of these universes have the ability to jump to different universes with out us forcing the crossover by a non-setting explanation. If you can find an explanation for the Necrons jumping universes that retains the integrity of the 40k setting, then I think they should be able to do it.

Miles Teg

Interesting. I wonder if they would be able to resist the bonding techniques, because they operate on the animal side of a human psyche. I think that they would work with a captured Space Marine but they wouldn't be able to seduce him before capture.

I thought that the Warp's temporal nature just operated differently, not necessarily non-temporal. I could be wrong.

But the Necrons wouldn't be enslaved or worried about again. There would just be the C'tan to deal with.

 

Interesting, how commonplace are they? As well as how they do act as weapons, because the Imperium could probably have standard ship-to-ship weaponry surpassing if it isn't in the double digit petatons and firing per second.

In comparison to a Greater Daemon that doesn't sound like a threat. Ragnar admits that the sorcerer from the previous novel is more than 1,000 times weaker than the Greater Daemon who is a threat to the entire Imperiujm and galaxy in Ragnar's opinion.

Alright, here's how it might happen. The Emperor lets go off his control over the Void Dragon, allowing millions of Necrons and dozens of ships release themselves. This Void Dragon waits for an attack on the 40k universe, and when there is one in progress, it immediately goes there and turns the Dune technology to the Warhammer 40,000 side, forcing it to jump out of no-space. When it's vulnerable, Necron Warriors teleport into the assaulting ships and kill all personal, and now, with this tactic, Necrons, along with Warhammer 40,000 have no-ship technology and space folding FTL.

I read it up and found this.

But Dark Eldar don't show this weakness, they are only beaten when in one position while killing an enemy.

Slaanesh tries to convert things to worship it by sexual techniques. Are you sure bonding techniques will work any better?

Unwanted time travel in the Warp is possible, that's as far as what it can do.

Their armor will be on them so they will still obey the C'Tan because of the Void Dragon.

 

Well?

 

Sorry, I had to deal with finals...

Not very common in the the books; however, the reason they aren't used is because the Thinking Machines would rather use biological weapons and preserve industry. With the industrial capability of the machines it wouldn't be that much of a problem to make them commonplace.

Plus, I don't think it would come down to brute force vs brute force. There are more factors to take into account, such as strategy and tactics, psychology, politics, ecological influences, etc.

I'm sure the demons have other means at their disposal; however, biological attacks are just not going to work on the Bene Gesserits and that is what I'm arguing. Plus, the unclean ones are demons that actually have somewhat of a personality:

Under what basis would you predict these series of events? Would the Emperor do this? I am inclined to support that which stays true to the characters therein.

Yes, but he can be remade as gholas, and possibly recreate the conditions to spark his abilities in others.

It would only be a matter of time before that weakness is exposed and capitalized on. Until then, some gholas will be killed; oh well, they'll just make more.

The bonding techniques of the Bene Gesserit can be resisted, I'm not sure if the Honored Matres specialization of it would be. However, Since the canon of WH says they are immune to correlate techniques, then the marines would probably be immune but that doesn't mean the rest of WH humanity is.

So, its temporal nature is in flux? That would make sense, as what I have read about it describes the Warp as chaotic.

Has it been explored in WH whether it is possible? Perhaps it would just require the C'tan to be weakened in order for the wills of the souls to be revived. This is just conjecture and I wonder if there is or will be any exploration into that in the WH novels.

 

Abilities of either universe aside, you must remember that the motives and psychology of those within each universe have a part to play in this conflict. These motivations must be accounted for and weighed into the matter. What alliances would be made and who would end up possessing the real power? This would not be a conflict of raw power against raw power, but rather who would have more influence and who would retain more of their identity after the collision of universes.

The abilities are merely tools for each universe to achieve its ends; my contention is that the abilities of the Dune universe allow for more influence than the WH40k universe. Ricrery, your approach is like someone playing Risk while the better approach would be akin to someone playing Diplomacy.

 

I've only read the first Dune book, ages ago, wasn't it set in the year 19K?, 40K is 21K years ahead so... I'd guess the 40K universe would have a distinct advantage. While you've all gone on about Leto II and gods and stuff, I think a 40K Space Marine sounds a lot tougher than Dune Freeman (who duffed up the Sardaukar)

 

I will never understand why anyone would ever factor in the amount of time passed in fictional universes. Time is almost entirely arbitrary and set by the author, which I must remind you is not a time traveler. The rate of technological advancement has no concrete formula equating the time of a civilization to its level of technology. Hell, technology can't even be quantified into tier levels. If we were to isolate two civilizations from each other, I doubt the two will advance the same technological areas at the same time.

Whether it's been 19,000 years or 40,000 years, it is irrelevant. They are fictional. If we did go 19k or 40k years in the future, I can sure as hell bet you it won't look anything like the Imperium of either Dune or Warhammer. Now, please tell me how you ever came up with the conclusion that a civilization who fictionally lives longer than another universe who probably doesn't even follow the same timescale would win merely because they lived longer.

 

Different fictional universe, different backgrounds, rates of advance, technologies.
Like Renrue said, there's no point comparing time elapsed, it's only what is available (or known to be available) from the books, films etc. that count.

If we took "time elapsed" into account then Star Wars wouldn't stand a chance against Napoleon's army since Napoleon is only ~150 years ago, and SW is a "long, long time ago".

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I was recconing on them both following the same time scale, and both fictional universes actually have the same starting point, as I understand, the starting point for both is the present day Earth as both stories are of the human race from Earth in the far distant future. Taking that into account 21K yrs is a very long time to generally get better equipped (including the space dark ages in
40K.)

I'm not just thinking along the terms of elapsed time Dune and 40K have the same starting point (or at least thats the impression I got from reading a few of the books) think its fairly safe to assume that the Star Wars universe existed not even in the same universe as Napoleon but in some distant long ago and far far away multiverse, and is highly more technologically advanced than Napoleons army, a single AT-AT and crew would win that one.

 

Again, these timelines are entirely fictional. People assumed we would have flying cars by now, whereas another theorist would say we'll only have flying cars by 2100. Heck, there may be another that says we'll have them only a thousand years from now.

GamesWorkshop and Frank Herbert are just two science fiction writers. Their stories have no basis in true human history. You act as if Warhammer 40k in the year 19k had the same technology as Dune, and when Dune reaches the year 40k they'll mirror exactly how the Imperium of Man played out in technology. This is stupid.

It's made up. No one knows what will happen 19k or 40k years in the future. We can only compare the merits of the technology they are purported to have. By your logic, they both should have Replicators and holodecks from Star Trek, because the Federation is much further back in the time stream. Again, fictional. Compare the merits that are purported in their universes, not by something as meaningless as a made up arbitrary timestamp.

 

Well yes, but they posit completely different rationales from then on (if one dare use the word "rationale" with regard to GW products).

Um, at the start of the very first film it states (all together now...) "A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away".
In other words it's our universe.

Well one science fiction writer and one group of "plagiarists".

 

I disagree far far away, could mean the star wars galaxy is in another universe some where across the multiverses it just depends on the scale your thinking in.

I agree good point you've got me there. Oh well I guess I'll have to read the other Dune books before I post in the thread again. Cheers.

 

Then it would have said "in another universe" as opposed to another galaxy (i.e. not our galaxy), wouldn't it?

 

In another Universe doesn't sound as good, but I conceed you are probably right.