Mods that care... speek up.!!!

Discussion in 'SF Open Government' started by cluelusshusbund, Jun 8, 2010.

?

What is you'r view of the pont system.???

  1. No changes needed.!!!

    5 vote(s)
    50.0%
  2. Changes needed.!!!

    5 vote(s)
    50.0%
  1. mordea Registered Senior Member

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    418
    Wait, where *is* the moderator input? Should we be inclined to believe that the moderators *don't* care?
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2010
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  3. Bells Staff Member

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    That's not what I said or how I meant it and you know it.

    If sciforums was going to claim the role of a more intelligent community, then there should be no insults at all. There would be no breach of the forum rules....

    Of course.

    But my statement still stands and my reasons still stand. I'm not going to apologise for how I moderate to you.

    Disrespectful to who? The member who's threatened to kill the children of another member or moderator? How about the one who stalked another member across this forum and in real life? I think saying 'enjoy your holiday' in such circumstances is being nice and respectful. Not being nice would be to tell them exactly what kind of people they were when giving the ban.

    You mean open discussion only if we say what you want us to say?

    I'll say this. Respect goes both ways clueless.
     
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  5. cluelusshusbund + Public Dilemma + Valued Senior Member

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    Originally Posted by clueless
    I say the odds are slim to none that it difusses a tense situaton when a mod gives a partin-shot of a smart-azz remark to the person ther bannin.!!! ”

    We obvously disagree on whether insultin the person bein baned is benificial to the beterment of Scifourms.!!!

    I didnt say you said it... its a statment i made... ie... i dont thank its benificial to the beterment of Sciforums for a mod to pass out bans which include insultin remarks... you ether agree wit that or you dont.???

    For Sciforums to be taken serously when clamin a gole of bein a mor intelegent comunity... all bans shud be done wit-out insult... even perma-bans.!!!

    So is it or is it not... the gole of Scifourms managment to work toward a mor intelegent comunity.???
    --------------

    Other qualificatons bein equal... a mod who can muster "that kind of nice" is a beter mod whos makin Scifourms mor respectable.!!!

    So you admit that Sciforums woud be mor respectable if mods didnt insult posters when they ban 'em... but you refuse to comit to that mor respectable behavior.!!!
    ----------------

    “ Im of a mind... that in general... disrespect begets disrespect... an mods bein disrespectful to posters is not the way to go if the gole of Sciforums is to becom a mor intelegent comunity.!!! ”

    I dont see "somptin goin rong" as acceptable justificaton for Mods to perform ther duties disrespectfully.!!!

    Dolin out som "childish-punishment" by addin insult to the ban is obvously satisfyin to you'r immediate emotional needs in the situaton you described above... but i suspect a person woud be beter off in the long run by atemptin to develop a mor mature atitude in the way they handle such situatons... ie... behave professionaly an dont add insults to the ban.!!!
     
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  7. Repo Man Valued Senior Member

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    Moderators have an unpaid, voluntary position. The standards they are held to have to reflect this. They will occasionally play favorites, and have lapses in judgment. I'm not excusing bad behavior, but they are human, and aren't to be held to the standards we would expect of a judge, or a police officer.

    There are those who pine for the "good old days", but I don't miss being flamed by a moderator - who was free to do as she liked without any consequence. She's long gone, and so is that style of moderation; I think the forum is better now.
     
  8. mordea Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    418
    Bells, you're a moderator again? That's good news. It's nice to see that your time as one of us plebs gave you a different perspective which might help you govern with a little more wisdom.

    Since you're the only moderator who is willing to interact with us:

    That sounds very good to me. I would be quite happy to be held up to, protected by, and punished under the rules of a forum when I sign up.

    That's an extreme circumstance. However, taunting someone who is mentally deranged or who has been worked into a frenzy is obviously counter-productive, so why do it? Why made a bad situation worse? To make yourself feel better? For some vindictive satisfaction?

    This sort of thinking suggests that such people are not considered a real threat. Likewise, the way in which past 'trolls' (eg. Reiku) have been treated in the past suggests that trolls are not considered to be liabilities to the forum.

    Precisely! Clueless and myself have stated this many times, from the perspective of a member. If the moderators wish for an environment of respect, then they must lead the way.

    Unfortunately, it seems that when a moderator offers up an opinion, there is a sting and slap for those who disagree. When it comes to enforcing the rules, the 'black sheep' are targeted while privileged members get off scott free. And then, to rub salt in the wounds, the enforcing moderator will make some sort of smart ass remark publically and/or privately. Impartiality indeed! Little wonder that posters go off the deep end, when they are treated like shit while being powerless to do anything about it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2010
  9. cluelusshusbund + Public Dilemma + Valued Senior Member

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    Yes i agree... an thers a old sayin... "you get what you pay for"... but the issue here is... are ther reasonable measures which can be taken to make Sciforums a mor intelegent comunity as James R has espressed a desire for???... an i voat "yes".!!!
     
  10. Repo Man Valued Senior Member

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    4,955
    I sometimes wonder why you've adopted this persona, but that's not relevant here. Sure, onwards and upwards - but an occasional parting shot by a moderator doesn't seem like a major issue to me. Especially when you consider some of the more unpleasant people they have to deal with from time to time.
     
  11. Gustav Banned Banned

    Messages:
    12,575

    i do not know what to say
    you lack focus and act like a noob



    no you cannot give advice
    very few people know the dynamics of sci better than i and you are not one of them

    furthermore, "seem" is the operative word
    for instance, i read sam's stuff. i clicked on the neanderthal thread and viola, christmas all over again

    but... i understand the mod agenda. it currently serves you lot to think that i come to sfog to hound the mods of no reason at all. it is easy enough to then ignore any valid issues raised

    thats really stupid trollish behavior but entirely expected of all your vicious and feeble minds

    so ahh, what in particular goes in the "background" at this time? i reported the "monkey noises" post as a troll. tell me what is being done. is string being warned? banned? congratulated for trolling the hated sam's thread?

    probably absolutely nothing right?

    /snicker


    heh
    why do i "pick" on idiots like string and dwhatever? they are the ones that had infracted me without just and reasonable cause. they come to me. it is their aggression that kept me blathering and wasting my time in sfog futily pursuing justice



    of course. you are stupid as they come, aint ya? thats what you want to convince me of, right?



    when a ban is publicly announced....

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    ......why on earth should i then take it private? even it isnt, why should i?
    are your sensibilities offended when your stinking laundry is aired out for all to see?
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2010
  12. Gustav Banned Banned

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    12,575
    eyeball this, dumbfucksci

    this is fairplay
    something you lot know nothing about,......


    Whats Good for the Goose...


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    ..is Good for the Gander



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    /cackle
     
  13. Bells Staff Member

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    24,270
    I give as I get.

    This thread, from its OP, was not intended on a you vs me slugging it out. It was an attempt at humour. Something you obviously are no longer able to recognise. Which is unfortunate.

    And how is that going for you so far?

    I'm sorry, I shall bow to you as the higher authority about the 'dynamics of sciforums'.

    For someone who claims to understand the dynamics of sci better than than anyone else, even those who have been here longer than you have, you sure aren't seeing that sci has changed and the dynamics have changed. Open your eyes, smell the roses.. You're not in Kansas anymore Dorothy.

    Ah. I see.

    Wait..

    There's an agenda?

    Tiassa! You and me have to talk!

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    Ah.. "you lot".. Much like "you people".. So denigrating and so demeaning.

    Contrary to what you may believe, you aren't on top of the "agenda", whatever that happens to be.

    Your reasons are valid. So tell me, why do you insult and abuse those who could actually ask about it?

    Again, refer to above.

    No idea. I've been too busy answering your posts to actually see. I haven't read anything in there today. And I am not privy to what warnings or discussions are held via PM's if any are given or if anything goes on. I don't see it's about Sam, from reading it. Why do you introduce that into the picture? Have you PM'ed the mod to ask what has been done about it? Then again, my mind might be too vicious or feeble to see or do anything.

    Last I checked, the discussions were centering around world domination.

    So it's not personal?

    I tend to respond to people in the manner in which they address me. Thus far, I have been polite to you and offered you advice that you would do well to take. Your reasons are valid, as are you questions. But your method of delivery is meant to insult and demean others.

    You know?..

    /Snicker..

    Get it now?

    You can't bring about change by insulting, abusing and demeaning people. Which is kind of what this thread is about. Unfortunately you seem to have missed that little boulder that has been lobbed.

    There are different approaches you could make that are public. But you won't do that. Not spectacular enough.

    You want to insult me? Knock yourself out. I really don't care. You're not the centre of "sci". And while you may think you understand the dynamics more than most people, you obviously do not. If you did, we would not be having this conversation and I would not be begging you to change your method of delivery.

    We're all still plebs.

    And this wisdom? Heh..

    As for perspective. It is interesting to me that I am immediately now the "you people". Forum dynamics.. have to love it.

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    Would you?

    Would everyone? Lets say that moderators are 'punished' the same way as everyone else is.. aside from the spanking we get in private.. would you still be happy if you were moderated? I wouldn't be. I was pissed off as hell when I was moderated and given warnings, because I felt it was unjustified. So does everyone who gets a warning or is moderated. No matter how equally the rules are administered, people will still be pissed off.

    I could mention names..

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    We all push buttons, members and moderators alike, because we want that bite back. But there have been instances where people have stalked others, threatened others without any provocation. That said, we shouldn't push buttons. But in some most situations, you're in the middle of a discussion about something you care about. If someone says something disgusting, you will hit back. We all would and do. So unless we are to change the way in which all members posts.. The people who are banned are not goaded into it by moderators, but are usually goaded to it by other members and countless warnings and PM's don't diffuse the situation. Ideally all involved should be banned.

    I only slap if someone goes too far, regardless of the side they happen to be on. I would imagine and hope that the other moderators are the same.

    We do participate in debates. For us to remain completely impartial, we should not participate in anything and be like robots. We can't remain impartial about what is discussed. What we should remain impartial about is how we administer the rules. And I hope that we do. But when we are moderated, we don't see it that way. I know I didn't when I was. I felt a sense of unfairness and bias against me. So it's easier said then done, really.
     
  14. Gustav Banned Banned

    Messages:
    12,575
    my bad, bells
    i do love you, you know

    /smile

    anyways, i'll drop this crap
    its boring and old
    lemme not rain on this clueless fella's parade
     
  15. mordea Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    418
    I strongly disagree. As Stryder made clear, there is a status quo. Some posters have more influence and 'power' here than others. Some posters are above others. And those on the top make an effort to maintain that status quo. How do you think that makes the regular posters feel? I'll tell you how I feel. I no longer care about sciforums. I no longer care about a place where my worth as a person, and my contributions, are devalued. And I'm tired of having the same old arguments over the same old issues.

    Reminds me of an experiment they once did. It involved prisoners and guards...

    But seriously, who is responsible for perpetuating the forum dynamics? When the moderating process has no transparency, and moderators refuse to participate in these sort of threads to discuss the concern of members, then I'd say that that moderating team as a whole is partly to blame for the great divide.

    And ya know, I sort of get the feeling that so few moderators have contributed to this thread precisely because they are afraid of saying something which may be perceived as going against the mod-squad. And that just confirms in the minds of the skeptics that the moderation has an us vs. them mentality. Us nobles have to stick together to protect ourselves against them peasants!

    I'd certainly be happier to be moderated fairly and politely, than unfairly and impolitely.

    That's not necessarily true. And even if it were, your outrage would likely be far less than had you been moderated unfairly, while being belittled.

    Probably, but not nearly to the same degree. Furthermore, actual trolls would receive far less support from the membership when they attempt to cause trouble, as their arguments of 'unfair treatment' seem far less credible.

    Ergo. Going to great effort to treat a complaining member with respect and fairness disarms them far better than just sticking them in the ban cycle while rubbing their face in it.

    Are you not the one who once cited the phrase 'We reap what we sow'? If moderators do indeed press buttons, why do they act with feigned indignation when someone reacts?

    OK.

    If you want to defuse the situation and avoid future problems, then yeah.

    That sounds like a weak rationalisation. It is not intellectual, constructive, or respectful to respond to an obnoxious idea with an attack on the individual or the group that they belong to. Attack the argument, not the man. By driving away those with an opinion that is not the norm, you are simply left with boring veterans preaching to the choir, and beating up on the few whipping boys that are allowed to remain.

    1. Not true. Even if it were not, people on an 'intellectual forum' should exert a little more self control. They should all be held accountable to the rules.

    2. My problem isn't so much with the fact that people press buttons and retaliate, so much that some people are given far more leeway than others by the moderators.

    Which you can. However, measures need not be punitive. If moderators lead the way by acting as role models, then those around them will seek to emulate them.

    LOL, bullshit.

    Or at least subject to the same punishment.

    I don't think moderators should remain 'impartial' concerning their views on discussion issues. But there *are* measures that they can take to avoid being viewed as biased when they moderate.

    Yes.

    Measures can be taken to reduce the sense of unfairness.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2010
  16. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    39,397
    Sounds like you should just leave, mordea. It's obviously all too much for poor little you. And, let's face it, you've been permabanned once before. You were allowed to return in the hope that you learned something in the meantime, got a little older and just a bit more mature. Yet here you are, saying you only come here to troll, that you don't care about sciforums, that you don't like the place, that you think the entire administrative/moderator team is shit, etc. etc. whine whine cry baby.

    Obviously, this is not the place for you. Goodbye and good luck.
     
  17. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    Messages:
    39,397
    Yes, everything SAM writes is gold for Gustav.

    Not for no reason. You do it because it's what turns you on.

    I reviewed your complaint and decided that no action was warranted. string's post was was an obvious attempt at humour. Maybe you don't like his style of humour. Maybe you didn't get the joke. Clearly you thought the post was inappropriate. As such, it was your right to report it. Your report was considered and dealt with, as all reports are. Move on.

    If you feel you have been treated unfairly by a moderator, please contact an administrator by PM and your complaint will be reviewed.

    These continual insults do not help your case and are, in point of fact, a breach of the site rules. As you know.
     
  18. mordea Registered Senior Member

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    418
    No idea what you're talking about.

    Yep. Bye.

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  19. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    cluelusshusbund:

    Respect is a two-way street, clueluss. Also, you can't legislate respect. Respect is earned, often gradually.

    Now, if you're talking about politeness, that's a separate matter. Good manners don't depend on the other guy - they depend only on you.

    I'm not sure quite what you mean by this.

    As a starting point, every new poster here has a blank slate and is treated with an open mind by the moderation team. All views, I hope, are given a fair hearing, with the exception of ones that are in breach of site posting policies (e.g. pornographic posts, hate speech etc.) Respect, as I said above, is a different matter. We get our fair share of nuts here, who post all kinds of nonsense. It often becomes immediately obvious that these people do not know what they are talking about, or that what they are saying is plainly wrong, or that they are unwilling to take correction from those more knowledgeable than themselves. Now, even those people are tolerated here - up to the point where it becomes clear that they are not interested in real discussion, but only in pushing a particular wagon, not listening to any other views or really interacting. At some point, some posters become trolls. You cannot ask that trolls be respected. Sure, you might appreciate a "skillful" troll who is good at what he does, but that's not real "respect" unless you're a troll yourself.

    The troll is just one example where respect can be lost. Occasionally, long-term posters lose the respect of moderators and other members, for other reasons. Perhaps they become one-track ideologues. Perhaps they stop posting any useful content, instead engaging only in forum politics and sniping at others. Perhaps they just flip out and start acting weird, for reasons that have nothing to do with the forum but more to do with "real life" events.

    I'm rambling a bit here. The point is, again, that there's nothing in the forum rules that mandates that moderators, or general members, must respect anybody. Why not? Because respect is a personal thing. I can't tell you to respect somebody else and expect that you will do it. If you don't have respect, you don't have respect. What I can legitimately tell you is not to insult those you don't respect - and that's what is in the forum rules. Lack of respect is often arguable in posts; insults are often blatant.

    Perhaps so, but as long as that doesn't affect his moderation it is a personal matter.

    Good advice. Perhaps you ought to tell mordea (for example).

    What kind of direction do you have in mind?

    The ban is what diffuses the situation. It can often prevent an argument between posters escalating and escalating, and taking over the forum.

    Nobody likes being banned. It is rare, in my experience, that banned posters return to the forum having given really serious thought to why they were banned, though it has happened occasionally. Mostly, banned posters get angry and go on to bear grudges. They prefer to blame the evil moderators for their banning rather than taking responsibility for their own actions.

    Compared to many internet forums, sciforums is remarkably forgiving when it comes to bans. You can be banned 5 or six times here before attracting a permanent ban. Many forums will permanently ban people at the drop of a hat. We believe in second chances ... and third chances ... and often more. Mostly, our goodwill goes unrewarded, as moderators have to spend more time dealing with repeat troublemakers, but occasionally we see somebody turn over a new leaf and make a fresh start.

    I don't remember expressing a desire for a more intelligent community. I'm not sure I even want that, necessarily. This isn't a forum exclusively for professional scientists, for example, and was never intended to be that (though, of course, we do have a number of professional scientists here).

    What I do aim for is a level of reasoned and reasonable discussion, guided by some basic principles of netiquet, intellectual honesty and fair treatment.
     
  20. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    Messages:
    39,397
    Yeah yeah. Whatever.

    Cya!
     
  21. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    37,884
    This and that

    In truth, I'm trying desperately to stay out of this one, as I've been away for two weeks, did not witness the advent of this particular dispute, and am just now starting to catch up on all that I've missed.

    But I will take a moment to chortle publicly at the notion of a moderator agenda.

    (chortle!)

    Or perhaps not. One might assert individual egocentrism as an agenda, as some disputes in recent years might suggest, but even in that notion, we're hardly unified.

    Or, to be more direct ....

    • • •​

    By my experience, I would suggest that the reason certain of my colleagues have any appearance of such an agenda is actually the lack of an agenda. Our expectations are so vaguely defined that even we have a hard time agreeing on what the "agenda", such as it is, actually means.

    That is, to consider the events of December and January as an example, it would be easier to believe that the issues leading up to that cyclopean disaster somehow reflected an agenda if there was some consistent standard and method to the apparent madness. Indeed, I teased one of the authorities that nobody was about to take similar action against him for "lying" about me.

    To the one, I think it would be disastrous to set as general policy such exacting standards as were invoked against a longstanding member to effect a thirty-day suspension. To the other, though, the idea that it should even be remotely necessary to entertain the question speaks volumes in itself.

    To wit: While walking through The City last week, I happened to move slightly to one side as I went about my wandering in order to allow the clop-clopping high heels approaching my back to pass on one side. The woman actually said, "Thank you," as she passed; as an American, this was very much foreign to my experience. Rather than suggesting that this outcome was the result of English meekness, quiet desperation, or mewling fear, I would posit that it is something of a matter of practice. Certain efforts of courtesy simply aren't so great, and after all the centuries of development and outright transformation British society has gone through, I should not be surprised that they've figured out a number of these small details.

    To the other, Sciforums is much more familiar to my American sensibilities, in which many of the smallest efforts of courtesy are so offensive to one's outlook that it is worth a much greater effort to make a certain point, offend another, and thus feel some measure of vengeance and vindication. Indeed, I had something of a row with the U.S. Border Patrol yesterday, while entering Canada ... from England. Go figure. But what amuses me most about that was the idea that had I not become accustomed during my two weeks away to a comfortable gentility seemingly characteristic of the English, and not at all absent in London—despite the chaos of, say, Leicester Square on a Saturday night after a World Cup match—I might have actually done something to warrant being surrounded by three armed thugs trying to protect their comrade from a simple question.

    Ah, home! America, America, God shed His grace on thee! Perhaps that God is Yahweh Sabaoth. Yet, this sort of senseless sensibility is pretty much standard fare at Sciforums. I only wish they hadn't waited until after the nine hour flight across the Atlantic to remind me of why I should have simply stayed abroad; I might well have sought some means by which to grant them that desire.

    That the Border Patrol might remind me of some of my colleagues is unfortunate. But I would suggest for Americans such conduct is an extension of our culture; for some English, it is a necessary outlet according to Freudian or MacLeanian neurotic conflicts; I can't speculate about the Australians at the moment, as the output is mixed to the point of contrasting, and I haven't just experienced the society firsthand. Who else? At any rate, it's not so much that the others don't matter, but that at some point it's just easier to recommend the toasted goat cheese with sesame seed, served over radicchio and red kale with a raspberry and mustard dressing, accompanied by a pint of real ale from York Brewery. 'Tis a good way to make one's frustrations wither, I tells ya.

    I'll stop now. I mean, what was it I said, that I was trying to stay out of this? Damn. Blew that pretty quick.

    Sorry. I now return this thread to its regulary-scheduled acrimony.
     
  22. Gustav Banned Banned

    Messages:
    12,575
    string addresses me...


    i address string


    he gets a free pass and i........


    ...get another infraction. screw you, string. you are the scum of the earth. you abuse your mod privileges with impunity, dont you?


    indeed. nothing but empty fucking words if you dont rein in your goons, james.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2010
  23. Gustav Banned Banned

    Messages:
    12,575

    yeah that was good one
    still tho when one reads shit like ....


    ..that, i can easily make that extrapolation. for instance the spate of bogus infractions are part of that "agenda". from my pov, that is a logically permissible stance. it is certainly not in the realm of impossibility


    wrong, i come to sfog to dispute issues (infractions)
    go back and read


    read again..


    ..and see how nuanced rhetoric utterly escapes your attention. it is unfortunate this largesse does not extend to a post i made

    review this. how many time do i have to ask you? my response does not qualitatively differ from string. both were the first response to an op. both made an attempt at humor.

    let me explain...


    trippy protest too much

    his rhetoric (tt and op) allows that inference
    so i insinuate he is responsible for the bomb scares
    now do i really think that? of course not
    it was a goddamn joke!
    unfortunately, i have a vicious and deranged mod, string, after me. i mean....look at the goddamn insults! look at the naked hostility!

    /chuckle


    never again
    i been ignored too many times
    sfog is the only resort


    it was not an insult. read it carefully.

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    i only allege that bells is feigning ignorance. that too is probably not the case. she simply is not interested enough to find out
     

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