Another round in Oregon?

Discussion in 'World Events' started by Tiassa, Aug 4, 2000.

  1. Bowser Namaste Valued Senior Member

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    Tiassa,

    Just so you know that I don't travel with bliders, I'm going to share a URL with you...against my better judgement:
    http://www.youthresource.com/gallery/

    I promise you, my children will have very happy and stable lives, more so than those which you will find in this gallery. Enjoy the benefits of homosexuality <img src = "http://www.exosci.com/ubb/icons/icon12.gif">

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  3. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    Wow ... kids who are coherent enough to express themselves clearly. All things considered, maybe that is a benefit of homosexuality.

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    At any rate, I'll look deeper through the gallery when I'm not at work; but my initial survey showed me exactly what I expected to find: human beings. And yes, I do think there's some brilliant expression taking place; much of it far, far greater than the heterosexual teen-majority has led me to expect.

    As far as those who could only express themselves by killing themselves ... well, there ya go. Next time you or your kids are beaten up by a bunch of gay people for the mere crime of heterosexuality ... well, then I'll listen while you complain.

    Just restating a question. It's more conceptual than anything else. But I dare you to look a raped child in the eye and say, "Smile! At least it wasn't homosexual!"


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  5. Bowser Namaste Valued Senior Member

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    "Wow ... kids who are coherent enough to express themselves clearly. All things considered, maybe that is a benefit of homosexuality."

    Yes, I was impressed with the artistic nature of the various efforts. They were very good.

    "As far as those who could only express themselves by killing themselves ... well, there ya go."

    Yes, that is a shame, if only someone was there to encourage their homosexuality. That really would have set things right. I say that the problem is deeper, and requires more than a reversal of our social values. Suicide is a sign of MENTAL ILLNESS. Does suicide sound like a stable condition to you? A sexual drive is a pathetic excuse for committing suicide. Because society doesn't agree with your preferrence, you're going to hold your life hostage? Stupid. And the proposed remedy is even more in deficit.

    "Next time you or your kids are beaten up by a bunch of gay people for the mere crime of heterosexuality ... well, then I'll listen while you complain."

    Won't ever happen. Thank you just the same.

    "But I dare you to look a raped child in the eye and say, "Smile! At least it wasn't homosexual!"

    I would prefer to kill the turd who committed the act. How's that for random violence, Tiassa?

    Here we go again...ranting.

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  7. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    Bowser--

    Your apparent lack of faith in human emotion is disturbing.

    Boldface section: I resurrect the idea of, "If I beat you up because I think you're hitting on my girlfriend ...." Or, "If I beat you up because I catch you stealing the stereo out of my car ...."

    Now, if I beat you up simply because you're gay ...? The nearest thing to a proper justification I can manage would be that I, as a heterosexual, am beating up the homosexual based on my assumption of this homosexual's motives; that is, I am beating him up because I have decided what he is thinking and feeling, and choose to be threatened by it.

    Now, at this point, what is the school's part in this? (Assuming that the act took place on school grounds.) "Well, Billy, violence is wrong, but you have to look at yourself, carrying on in such an unwholesome, socially irresponsible, detrimental, sinful manner."

    My own father and I still associate, but just barely. About the single most unreasonable thing he ever said to me came after a friend succumbed to the suicidal urge in the midst of methamphetamine addiciton. When he told me that she had it coming to her, simply because she was 14 and on drugs ... well, I'm 27 now and neither one of us are over it.

    I would assert that we lose focus when we justify violence against individuals and declare their emotions to be based entirely on their sex drives. No, I don't think we lose focus, actually. I think we smash reality altogether.

    When your family decides you're not worth their time and thus kicks you out of the home because of your sexuality, the emotional impact one might feel is apparently based solely on their sex drive? Hell, I must be stupid; I had figured it was pretty much the standard human reaction to being betrayed by the people who claim to love you.

    That's the problem with Moralism. It accepts greater immorality in its quest to achieve a specific moral purpose. Your rhetoric only works toward justifying the stupid people who think someone's sexuality is justification for physical violence.

    So I might agree with you that yes, had we someone there to encourage that homosexuality ... more specifically, had we someone there to affirm the difficult notion that what other people are doing to you is wrong. But they're gay, right, and not entitled to human dignity?

    I've never heard anything to counteract my notion that homophobes are fighting anything more than a phantom army of marionette fudgepackers trying to steal the children for their own revue of "The Pied Piper". I've never heard anything to counteract my notion that homophobes are fighting anything but their own imaginations.

    So it seems to me that this is about cruelty: You don't like gay people, and would like to vote them out of your society. This may be America, but let me know when you're done raping Miss Liberty ... oh, but she won't mind, will she? At least it's heterosexual.

    Moralism--especially Mabon's version of it--is nothing more than hatred disguised in Christ's beard. Mabon does his faith a disservice, he does his community a disservice, and he does Liberty a disservice. Literally, the only hope y'all have of winning is to disenfranchise homosexuality so strongly that the homosexuals literally cannot survive. Oh, equal rights! Help me, help me! The goddamn buggers want to be equal, what ever shall we righteous people do?

    Hint: get used to it. Human dignity does not bow to narrow religious standards. Anyone who asks it to may well be demonstrating Liberty by taping your mouth shut.

    Not random at all, actually. Now, does it make a difference if it was heterosexual or homosexual? Your long-standing implication in this thread is that it would be morally worse if it was a homosexual rape than if it was aa heterosexual rape. Rape is rape. Maybe you like to be a discriminating observer, but what the hell is the difference?

    thanx,
    Tiassa

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  8. Flash Registered Senior Member

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    Tiassa,
    Hey, there old friend

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    I have not said much recently in this thread...for many reasons LOL However, I wanted to tell you that your posts are refreshing! I wished more people in the world shared the same spirit of views that you have. Not just regarding homosexuality, but, rather acceptance of people... in general.

    Take care!!!!!!

    Flash
     
  9. Bowser Namaste Valued Senior Member

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    "Your apparent lack of faith in human emotion is disturbing."

    Oh, love for thy brother. And the best way to express that is through anal sex?

    "Now, if I beat you up simply because you're gay ...? The nearest thing to a proper justification I can manage would be that I, as a heterosexual, am beating up the homosexual based on my assumption of this homosexual's motives; that is, I am beating him up because I have decided what he is thinking and feeling, and choose to be threatened by it."

    There may be some truth to that. I would feel threatened if a child molester moved next door to my house. Hint: Most people do feel uneasy when confronted by sexual perversion. Let's think about that for a moment. It's not as if homosexuality is a common sport with all of us. Are you really surprised by this normal human reaction to homosexuality...revulsion? I mean, would you feel comfortable sitting next to a child molester? Also, if we are going to place grace on homosexuality simply because it's their way (queer), then why not give those thugs some credit for their normal compulsions. Hey, hate is as stong an emotion as love. They both involve passion, don't they. It could just be that homosexuality creates fear in these heterosexual youngsters. And since we are being so very concerned about the few students who are homosexual, let's take the time to think of those students who are not queer. Maybe they don't like queers. Maybe those homosexual students cause anxiety. I understand that it would be easier if they all just conformed to your way of thinking, but that just doesn't sound fair to me.

    "Now, at this point, what is the school's part in this? (Assuming that the act took place on school grounds.) "Well, Billy, violence is wrong, but you have to look at yourself, carrying on in such an unwholesome, socially irresponsible, detrimental, sinful manner."

    Hey, Billy felt threatened by that queer kid. He had to take a swing in defense of his identity. Let's give that kid Billy some sympathy, he's been traumatized by a big bad fag.

    "My own father and I still associate, but just barely. About the single most unreasonable thing he ever said to me came after a friend succumbed to the suicidal urge in the midst of methamphetamine addiciton. When he told me that she had it coming to her, simply because she was 14 and on drugs ... well, I'm 27 now and neither one of us are over it."

    That's too bad, Tiassa. I suppose he should have accepted drug addiction as a good thing. Maybe even thought of it as natural and normal. Do you think that would have helped?

    "I would assert that we lose focus when we justify violence against individuals and declare their emotions to be based entirely on their sex drives. No, I don't think we lose focus, actually. I think we smash reality altogether."

    Unfortunately, the form of love that we are speaking of, to my understanding, involves sexual contact. It does contradict reality for many of us when applied in such an unfamiliar way. You do have a very valid point about reacting violently to homosexuality. I suppose that if you're going to walk around with your dick hanging out of your fly, someone will take notice, even more so when you're pointing at it.

    "When your family decides you're not worth their time and thus kicks you out of the home because of your sexuality, the emotional impact one might feel is apparently based solely on their sex drive? Hell, I must be stupid; I had figured it was pretty much the standard human reaction to being betrayed by the people who claim to love you."

    Hmm, if the world and your family revolved around your sexuality, you might have a right to feel betrayed. Where's your shame in dictating the conditions of love for those around you?

    "That's the problem with Moralism. It accepts greater immorality in its quest to achieve a specific moral purpose. Your rhetoric only works toward justifying the stupid people who think someone's sexuality is justification for physical violence."

    Well, we shouldn't speak our minds then. Might I add that your rhetoric only works towards justification of sexual perversion, and it supports the stupid people who think the male and female differences are of no purpose.

    "So I might agree with you that yes, had we someone there to encourage that homosexuality ... more specifically, had we someone there to affirm the difficult notion that what other people are doing to you is wrong. But they're gay, right, and not entitled to human dignity?"

    Yeppers, there must be some dignity lost when one gent is blowing another gent, but that's just me. What about two teen boys holding hands and kissing in the hallway at school. Me and my girlfriends would pet during break. Do we want to deny that same pleasure to young homosexuals, but that might cause a reaction from the other students. We better change their thinking.

    "I've never heard anything to counteract my notion that homophobes are fighting anything more than a phantom army of marionette fudgepackers trying to steal the children for their own revue of "The Pied Piper". I've never heard anything to counteract my notion that homophobes are fighting anything but their own imaginations."

    Maybe we are affraid of the homosexual imagination, and we don't want it involved with our children. If that confuses your sense of morality, I point at the homosexual community for a better explanation.

    "So it seems to me that this is about cruelty: You don't like gay people, and would like to vote them out of your society. This may be America, but let me know when you're done raping Miss Liberty ... oh, but she won't mind, will she? At least it's heterosexual."

    I wish it was that simple. The length of this thread is proof that it is not so simple, more so when you are trying to make homosexuals into the guiltless victims of their own indiscretion. It's a much more complex issue then it's worth. In short, you are right, but you are wrong. Most of us don't like it; but we don't want to limit the decisions of others. Unfortunately, this has become a public issue--forced into the light by activist...not just the OCA.

    "Moralism--especially Mabon's version of it--is nothing more than hatred disguised in Christ's beard. Mabon does his faith a disservice, he does his community a disservice, and he does Liberty a disservice. Literally, the only hope y'all have of winning is to disenfranchise homosexuality so strongly that the homosexuals literally cannot survive. Oh, equal rights! Help me, help me! The goddamn buggers want to be equal, what ever shall we righteous people do?"

    There's some truth to that. You tell me; where will people place more concern: The security of their children or the dignity of homosexuals? Where does our love begin and end with this issue? <img src = "http://www.exosci.com/ubb/icons/icon10.gif">

    "Hint: get used to it. Human dignity does not bow to narrow religious standards."

    But it bows for a queer penis!? Is that what you are telling me?

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    I would prefer to kill the turd who committed the act. How's that for random violence, Tiassa?
    <hr>

    "Now, does it make a difference if it was heterosexual or homosexual?"

    Either or...I don't think I would give it much thought other than my own resolve. Child rape is some pretty gross shit. But you have brought a new thought to mind. Is there a diferrence between messing with a kid's body and messing with a kid's mind (in sexual terms, that is)? When you're exposing a kid to homosexual ideas, are you not raping children of their innocence? Do you see harm in that savage act, Tiassa?



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  10. Bowser Namaste Valued Senior Member

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    "I have not said much recently in this thread...for many reasons LOL"

    Chicken! <img src = "http://www.exosci.com/ubb/icons/icon10.gif">

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  11. Bowser Namaste Valued Senior Member

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    <center>
    <hr>
    <img src = "http://www.geocities.com/bowsertwo/Kiddo.JPG")<hr>

    When you're exposing a kid to homosexual ideas, are you not raping children of their innocence? Do you see harm in that savage act, Tiassa?
    </center>


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  12. Flash Registered Senior Member

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    No, believe me..it has nothing to do with me being chicken.

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  13. Flash Registered Senior Member

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    Bowser,
    You have got to be kidding with the picture ?? Let me ask you this...exactly what do you think the homosexuals are wanting to do to your children??????

    I mean hey, because one is a homosexual AUTOMATICALLY makes them a child molester???
    Where exactly did you learn this, Bowser? The school of ignorant homophobics?

    All because one chooses a different gender than you think they should...makes them evil, violent, and a rapist? Pleaseeee

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    Do you really believe that a homosexual is not capable of being loving, caring, honest, or stable?

    Anyway...was simply curious....
     
  14. Cable Man Registered Senior Member

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    Tiassa-
    Why can't we all just get along? Isn't that the biggest pile of do-do we could get into. I applaud "Mabon". It was a bad idea for the Government to create public schools in the first place and this is where we have come. Because there are people like you and people like me public schools must tone down those things which MAKE LIFE. Ideally, sex should be left out of the picture. What business does sex have in any classroom? What determines a gay person? The Gay agenda would have my young children taught that having two daddys is a sound and acceptable policy. Coming from a Judeao Christian perspective it would be irresponsible for me to allow my children to be taught that anything good comes from a gay relationship. Regardless of what you think of me, is my Government going to demand that I "open up my childrens' minds"? This is dangerous ground. It is definately a fight worth fighting. After reading you and others over the last few months I have come closer to the conclusion that it is a rare moment that attitudes are changed by persuasion. Standing up to the plate and taking a pitch does not change the world...it just shows the world who we are...and it helps us to know who we are. Battle in Oregon...let the fight begin...may Providence take its course.
     
  15. Bowser Namaste Valued Senior Member

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    Hey Flash,

    "You have got to be kidding with the picture ?? Let me ask you this...exactly what do you think the homosexuals are wanting to do to your children??????"

    I believe that they want to teach my children that homosexuality is right.

    "I mean hey, because one is a homosexual AUTOMATICALLY makes them a child molester???
    Where exactly did you learn this, Bowser? The school of ignorant homophobics?"


    There are many who would argue that with you, but I won't. I do believe that it is, as with child molestation, perverse and should be viewed as such by our schools.

    "All because one chooses a different gender than you think they should...makes them evil, violent, and a rapist? Pleaseeee Do you really believe that a homosexual is not capable of being loving, caring, honest, or stable?"

    I thought I made my position clear throughout this thread about how it relates to the others. I'm sure homosexuals have much more to offer other than their sexuality. It's a shame that they place so much attention on that aspect of their lives.

    "Anyway...was simply curious...."

    I'm glad you asked. I think that the queer few care less for what we think and more for what they want. When you participate on this thread, I know that, at the very least, one of them has the courage to open up to other possibilities. Thank you for being brave.<img src = "http://www.exosci.com/ubb/icons/icon14.gif">

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  16. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    To start from the bottom of this paragraph and work up, Bowser.

    * It's not "my" way of thinking; when I was a child, I was taught by parents, teachers, preachers, and all manner of half-witted, well-intentioned fools what right and wrong is. And then one day I woke up and realized that whatever right and wrong is, it seems that everyone wants "right" to be exactly what they believed. So I looked at the underlying philosophy; that is, I looked at what it was we aspired to with our standards, and then tried applying that result equally throughout the society I observe. It seems to me that it's not so much "my" way of thinking, but the underlying freedom that we all aspire to. Can't help it much if you're jealous of another person possibly being your entitled equal in society, but I will try to stop you from codifying them as your inferior based solely on your own prejudices.

    * Right, maybe those homosexual students "cause" anxiety because we are taught from cradle to the grave to distrust anything we perceive as different. Comparative differentiation is nothing new in humanity; in fact, I'm of the opinion that such forms of classism and social stratification are what powerful religious leaders like Christ and Muhammed worked to defeat.

    * Sexual identity politics wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the fact that in Western culture, we have always "naturally" excluded people for being homosexual. Well, everyone but the priests. So I'll come to terms with you on your plea for extra-special attention for the heterosexual kids just as soon as you show me a public school that is so prejudicially gay that your heterosexual kids are killing themselves because there's no justice to fill in for the repeated beatings, tongue-lashings, and sundry cruelties of their daily lives.

    * Hate may be as strong as love, but death is as strong as life, and black is as strong as white. It's nice that you've clarified which side you endorse, though.

    * As to the first part of it, your continued attempts to morally equate homosexual intercourse to child molestation is beyond pathetic. I actually would have a better evidentiary case to establish religiously faithful people of several faiths as willful mass murderers.

    So if I'm threatened by the fact that you exist, I should be able to beat you with all the ferociousness as I should when I catch you robbing my house?

    Again, thank you for clarifying where you stand on violence.

    I won't suggest what your response equals. I would not put such cruel, hateful words in your mouth; but I'll point out the bloody-red stains they leave on your lips.

    You'd think that parents actually give a rip what their children might think of them ten, twelve, fifteen years down the line. But in the sense that my father didn't, I see the same in your opinion.

    You're still babbling about the sense that you have better emotional motivations than your neighbor. I'm glad you're so all-seeing into their emotional states. That was more the point.

    Well, as you've pointed out, the stability of your family will be undermined if your child chooses a sexuality different from your preference.

    As to dictating the conditions of love ... I think you've said quite enough. I didn't know that family love came at a price. Or did you actually go out of your way to start a family to have people to rule over? Dictate the conditions of love ...

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    I'll have to trust that this makes sense in your own mind.

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    So, your only definition of dignity is that Victorian "sight-of-the-neighbors" standard where the only reason to behave "appropriately" is to show everyone else it's appropriate? I'm talking about human dignity; you know, the dignity we allow other people simply because they're human beings? Oh, of course you don't ....

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    I forget now if I've asked you to demonstrate when homosexuality was a politically divisive issue in Oregon schools prior to Mabon's assault on the First Amendment in 1990. However, I still am of the opinion that this is about library books and unadulterated Christian hate. You're going to show me how this has become a public issue. And about the time you establish that in Oregon, I might invite you to consider US History, as well.

    Well, as long as people such as Mabon and yourself continue to espouse that homosexual equals necrophiliac-bestial-child molester, people will have the difficult task of choosing. However, when you choose to come down from the hills and join civilized society as opposed to haranguing it from afar, you might find that people are weary of pseudo-Christian hatemongers asking them to vote on religion.

    That sounds like the dumbassed censorship groups from the 1980's who wondered why freedom of speech "bowed" to Ozzy Osbourne's tongue.

    Short answer, no.

    When I took Anthropology--Culture & Human Sexuality at the University of Oregon, I read an essay in which a feminist author asserted rape among flies. Simply, a weaker fly, in search of a mate, will attack a stronger fly in order to attract the scent of food; deceiving the female, some weaker male flies managed to reproduce this way. Hence, the author's declaration of the social crime of rape.

    You have made a slightly less grounded assertion.

    I might make the same assertion about teaching a child to kill an animal for sport. I might make the same assertion about racism. I might make the same assertion about our American tendency to shield children with post-Victorian standards of prudism that have nothing to do with sexuality and everything to do with the appearance of propriety.

    I might make the same assertion about any idea which I find inappropriate.

    Look at DARE ... best efforts actually made kids more likely to take drugs; would you say we've raped them? I wouldn't. There's a lot of things I'd call it, but rape ain't one of 'em.

    thanx,
    Tiassa

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  17. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    CableMan--

    I might ask Mr. Mabon the same question.

    --Tiassa

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  18. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    Flash--

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    Let me thank you for your kind words. If I'm embarrassed (as my smilie might indicate) at all, let me just say that it's because I feel badly that people might recognize my efforts in a fight that needs not be.

    Almost any reason I have to take part generally leads in a roundabout way to a weird condescending perspective that shouldn't need to exist. But I'm convinced that has to do with a deep-seeded neurosis I suspect I have regarding what I consider injustice; rarely do I see injustice that truly requires deeper thought ... mostly, it's pretty apparent, and the only deeper thought needed is to explain it to the people who are just incapable of understanding that people are people are people.

    I'm also ashamed that I succumbed to the temptation of relaxing beneath the force of a nice round of antibiotics this weekend; God Hates Fags made what turned out to be a pathetic showing, but they dared preach their hatred in a tavern, and I would have loved to be there to see how close it came to a street riot. Or, at least, to tell them to get bent.

    But I was busy lying on my back having quasi-recollective hallucinations about Huxley's elephants, of all things, and imagining the pretty, pretty glowing flowers that dotted my ceiling on Sunday. Sometimes life has its own subtle rewards, eh?

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    (There's a cheesy line coming here somewhere ... probably about rolling on the river, so I'll just say thanks, and right is right, and liberty is liberty, and human beings are simply that--human.)

    best of my hope,
    Tiassa

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  19. Bowser Namaste Valued Senior Member

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    Tiassa,

    Well, I'm not going to quote you tonight. It boils down to what WE want in our schools, and I doubt that homosexuality is on OUR list.

    It's a shame that some people are trapped in their homosexuality; however, I won't sacrifice my concepts of right and wrong for anyone. As for what we think of it, that is our privilage and our right. Yes, I do hate homosexuality, but that's my right too.

    And when this initiative becomes law, forgive me if I don't spill any tears. <img src = "http://www.exosci.com/ubb/icons/icon10.gif">

    .

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  20. Cable Man Registered Senior Member

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    "Why can't we just get along?...Tiassa, that was supposed to be a joke. When you have two diametrically opposed views there will always be serious friction unless one side lays down and dies. I'm thankful that, for the most part, we don't wage our battles at gunpoint.
     
  21. Bowser Namaste Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, we shoot only verbal bullets here. It's a safe sport.

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  22. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    Cable Man--

    I suppose I should have winked

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    If I'd taken it seriously, I would have made a comment or two about the "Gay Agenda" (which I tend to view as composed almost entirely of people who desire "equal rights" ... extremists? yes, they do occur amid the "Gay Agenda" but where in society do extreme philosophies not arise?)

    But I did want to match your baseball metaphor:

    * You are correct when you say nothing is accomplished by taking the pitch. However, I might point out that in real baseball, you can throw a pitch three feet out of the zone--inside or out--and still get the called strike. In the electoral arena, the voters are the umpires. Unlike MLB, these umpires refuse any perception that they are responsible for the dignity of the progression of the game. You can't afford to take a pitch when the electorate is calling strikes because, just like real umpires, we're often left to wonder if they're watching the game at all.

    Thanx much, though. Truly, I did hear in my mind the whining sarcasm that usually goes with the plea these days.

    And I might have noted, had I taken it seriously, that my Catholic high school routinely ignored the "Judeo" part of Judeo-Christian, because it was simply too difficult to reconcile the amount of things that God hates in the Old Testament to the Redeemer, who stands in the name of Things Not Hateful (compassion? love? respect? repsonsibility?)

    --Tiassa

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  23. Bowser Namaste Valued Senior Member

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