Informed consent- Should statutory rape be extended to include idiots?

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Dr Lou Natic, Sep 9, 2008.

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Adult women regularly give uninformed consent

  1. I agree

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  2. I disagree

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  1. Dr Lou Natic Unnecessary Surgeon Registered Senior Member

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    This isn't about the logistics of how we could prove if the victim was in fact an idiot, or had indeed been tricked, but do you agree in principal that there's essentially no difference between an adolescent victim of statutory rape and perhaps %88 of the adult women involved in 1 night stands every weekend?

    There's a whole movement of sleazy guys who've essentially perfected mind control techniques, they go through a set of designated steps to coerce women into bed, there's books written about it and dr phil episodes dedicated to it, and etc etc. It's been coined as "speed seduction" or something like that but when you hear the "tips" you can clearly see that it's nothing but mind control, women are like cattle being coerced through gates to the slaughter, and tonnes of lame guys, who have no business getting laid at all, are becoming masters of this cold calculated art of sexual predation. I mean I see them out, nerds and losers with this new found confidence thanks to their little playbook, approaching girls and creepily reciting specific questions they've been instructed to ask and using their little choreographed moves.
    Basically women are being tricked into consenting to sex with people they don't actually want to have sex with, they aren't making an informed judgement of the dude because he's brainwashing them and mentally controlling them with tried and true techniques he's borrowed from shifty perverts.

    It could also include the guys who don't have the books but just developed their own sleazy methods. Anyone that tricks a dumb woman into sleeping with them, and like I said this is most guys that pick up on a weekend.

    How is it informed consent?

    I don't see how the fact the victims are adults changes anything, these cases are in every meaningful way exactly the same as statutory rape cases.

    I personally have this inbuilt inhibitor where I need to know a girl really is keen on me before I'm interested in doing anything with her, I don't have to be attracted to her, but she must be genuinely and significantly attracted to me. I even don't like it if they just like the way I look and haven't been given a chance to know how rad I am.
    I'm not saying I'm a saint but I guess I just don't have that soulless reptilian streak that allows one to do this sort of thing. I'd say it's truely sociopathic.

    I'd feel less ashamed of myself if I actually raped someone than if I did what these guys do. I feel it's the worst kind of dishonest sleazery imaginable.
    A good old fashioned punch in the lip and tackle into the bushes has a certain quiet dignity to it compared to this IMHO.
    I don't approve of that either, I'm just saying in light of the reality of "speed seduction" it's status improves somewhat thanks to the honesty element.
     
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  3. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    (Insert title here)

    It seems to me, Lou, that the modern era sees a tremendous amount of deception in mating rituals. The difference between what we might otherwise agree is acceptable and what you describe here is a matter of degrees and, owing to human diversity, either the threshold for making the act of lying your way into the sack be set fairly low on the ethical scale—it is, for instance, already a crime to knowingly spread certain diseases, so telling someone you're clean when, in fact, you carry HIV would seems fairly obvious—or else we should undertake a rearrangement of social priorities as broad in scope as it is long in its implementation. That is, either acknowledge that different people will have different thresholds for claiming rape by deception and thus set a bar accommodating the greatest number of people reasonably possible, or else find a way to make people smarter.

    The former, then, is something akin to what we have today. Lying about HIV—as I mentioned—for instance. Or trying to convince your twin brother's wife that you are, in fact, her husband. The latter is a tremendous undertaking that will span generations; while this is no reason in and of itself to forego such an endeavor, in truth I figure there are probably far more vital reasons for doing so. Fewer idiotic wars declared, fewer snake-oil politicians elected, and fewer juries delivering noodle-scratcher verdicts reflecting just how low our "peers", as such, have fallen.

    That these arrogant, oversexed shitheads might seduce our girlfriends or wives, and even convince them that the experience is better than they might have by us is certainly cause for chagrin. To the other, our wives and girlfriends must cope with men's general weakness: how many of our brothers will fuck anything that moves? And how the hell does a successful, heart-throb actor dating a supermodel come to get busted with one of the ugliest crack-whore hookers in southern California?

    Setting aside the generalization—I do think you're overestimating the gullibility of women while underestimating the internal persuasiveness of the female sex drive—there is a simple answer: While the threshold of intellectual maturity—for some, it may be fourteen, others sixteen, eighteen, even twenty-one, and, in some certain cases, oh, say, forty—varies greatly, society has undertaken any number of examinations into the question of what decisions a person might make when. It seems strange, to me, that one might be able to serve our country in the military, yet not be allowed buy a drink, a point I think more dramatically illustrated in our current warring era than in a recent period when one could reasonably expect to serve his or her entire tour, thus qualifying for various incentives including college education assistance, without ever having done anything more dangerous than basic training or, perhaps, practicing what they might do if a war should ever break out. Don't get me wrong, jumping out of an airplane is most certainly dangerous, but some people actually pay for the opportunity.

    I grew up able to vote, buy cigarettes and pornography, and even gamble through the device of the state lottery for three years before I was allowed to legally buy a beer. Apparently, I was mature enough to kill and die with an automobile while simultaneously giving myself cancer and an orgasm as a local radio station informed me that I'd won a million dollars in that evening's drawing, but not mature enough to buy a beer. Indeed, I was intellectually mature enough to commit myself to the armed forces if I was so inclined before I was considered smart enough to give myself cancer and an orgasm, &c., &c.

    In recent years, the U.S. Supreme Court affirmed a Missouri ruling that we should not execute minors, as young people's brains operate according to different processes and influences than mature adults.

    Yet we all like young girls, right? Or something like that. So the age of consent is variously determined. And, in truth, several states allow a girl to get married before she can legally give away her virtue to a casual partner or mere boyfriend.

    Trying to calculate genuine and accurate thresholds for such a diverse species as humanity is so complex and laborious an undertaking that society does not deem it practical to do so. As a result, general boundaries are drawn.

    And one of those boundaries is, indeed, the age of consent. Once you are an adult according to certain standards, you receive—in addition to certain rights—certain increased burdens. And one of these burdens is to know better than to go home with a cold-reading lounge lizard. Hell, it works both ways. I endured a shitty ten-year relationship because I continually and foolishly granted my partner a degree of credibility her behavior in no manner warranted.

    On the upside, of course, I got a really cool daughter out of it, but that's actually beside the point.

    Yes, there are horny confidence swindlers out there. But there are also "gold-diggers", "cougars", "bitches", "skanks", "sluts", "skeezies", and any number of female stereotypes who can even more easily con a guy into bed. At which point we run up against two classic social disparities: first, that a woman requires more protection than a man, and secondly that a woman's sexuality is somehow lesser than a man's. I understand a fundamental proposition of the latter in the stud-vs.-slut, admiration-vs.-condemnation double standard. And it has to do with the perception that a woman is made filthy by receiving a man's seed, while the man—in delivering and not receiving anything so intimately—can more easily make himself clean again (e.g., with a little soap and hot water).

    In the end, once one passes a certain social threshold, we are all, to a point, on our own. This is one of the burdens of adulthood. Even though a given fourteen year-old may be better prepared intellectually and psychologically for sex than a particular twenty-something college graduate, the fact remains that one has yet to reach a specific threshold, while the other is well beyond it.

    Even in mere principle, such as you have inquired, that does change the values assessed.
     
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  5. Bells Staff Member

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    Some people are just sleazy that way and some women fall for it. The way I see it is if you are stupid enough to fall for those types of lines, then, well, you're simply stupid. I have little sympathy for stupidity on that kind of scale.

    As for the sleaze factor.. bleh.. It's getting worse now. Even a wedding ring on a finger isn't enough of a deterrence. Hell, even a child in my arms with breathing difficulties on a rainy night isn't enough to deter a paramedic trying to sleaze onto me while my husband is standing right there next to me. At one point, his partner (the paramedics) had to remind him what he was there for. The lines were corny and if I hadn't been so upset about why we'd had to call the for an ambulance in the first place, I'd have probably kicked him in the nuts. But alas, this particular sleaze ball saw an opportunity... "Oh.. he has your big beautiful brown eyes".. "I adore your accent.. is it French".. "Your name.. it just rolls off the tongue".. Me... "Excuse me?!? MY SON IS HAVING ISSUES BREATHING.. WHAT IN THE HELL ARE YOU ON ABOUT?!?" Him.. "Oh I'm sorry.. you have the most stunning skin colour and the curls.. you must get compliments all the time.. and what's your son's name again and he's having issues breathing and his temperature is spiking you were saying? /Looks me up and down.. You'd never guess you'd had two children by looking at you? You say your son had a febrile convulsion? How long did it last? So.. how long have you and your husband been married?".. My husband.. "WTF?!? What kind of paramedic are you?" Me, turning to the other paramedic who by this point is red with anger and embarrassment.. "Is he for real? How long before we can get another ambulance here?".. Other paramedic.. "We need to get him to a hospital now Mrs ----".. Me near tears.. "Yes but can you be in the back and have him (nodding to the sleaze) drive.. I don't want him in the back with me and my son!"..

    Would some women fall for creeps like that? Maybe. If she's lonely and desperate enough and upset to boot about whatever is wrong in her life that she needs to call an ambulance, she could be easy prey for sleazeballs.

    God damn arsehole

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    .. Trying to prey on women who are in a desperate situation.. I mean what kind of asshat tries to hit on a woman as her child is sick enough that an ambulance has to be called? Seriously.. What is wrong with some people? My husband was livid and the only reason he didn't lose it was because our son was so sick and our eldest son was in his arms. Hope he loses his job after the complaint we filed at the hospital and the Ambulance service.

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  7. Dr Lou Natic Unnecessary Surgeon Registered Senior Member

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    You mean, like a child?
    What's the difference?
     
  8. Bells Staff Member

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    Children are not stupid. Just inexperienced and innocent about the actualities of life to a certain extent.

    There are some men who can look at a woman and tell by her body language or the manner in which she carries herself, if she is lonely (as one example). And if he wants a one night stand, that's what he will go for. Female sleazebags are the same.. prey on the individual who looks lonely and uncomfortable and slightly desperate for at least some attention.

    The woman gets the attention she wants at that time.. she feels important and so, she falls for it or lets herself fall for it. He gets the sex he wants. Most women would tell him to "fuck off". So he won't go for those women and it usually takes trial and error before he finds one who will fall for his advances. The same applies to women who are sleazy.
     
  9. Nasor Valued Senior Member

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    Hmm...if a person is out looking for sex and is able to identify someone who is lonely and desperate for attention, is it really necessarily "sleazy" to preferentially approach them? Sure, it could certainly be sleazy to lie to the other person or mislead them about your intentions, but merely approaching the lonely-looking people because you calculate that your odds of success are higher doesn't strike me as particularly sleazy. You are simply targeting your advances toward people who most want what you're offering. You point out that many women might tell the guy to fuck off. Well, sure - but why would the guy proposition people who he knows are likely to tell him to fuck off? Isn't he simply being polite by not propositioning people who he knows aren't interested?
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2008
  10. nietzschefan Thread Killer Valued Senior Member

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    Dr Lou, I thought about this question that you have posed to us just now...really really hard.

    I have decided, since I do not go out and "game" women and never have, and since I do not give a flying fuck for people who A) Do lie and shit, just to get "laid" and B) get taken in by a Beta male playing the Alpha male role, that all these people can go ahead and get HIV/Aids/Hep C/some new shit 7 degrees separated from fucking monkeys in Africa AND DIE.
     
  11. Bells Staff Member

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    My point is that he will sleaze onto women until he finds one who does not immediately tell him to sod off. Then the lies and the lines start. I'm sorry, but to me that is sleazy.
     
  12. CutsieMarie89 Zen Registered Senior Member

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    To me uninformed means you have no idea what's going on you just do whatever someone else tells you to do. These women aren't being tricked just persuaded. They know what's happening and they aren't confused, they just might be letting their emotions or physical need guide the situation instead of logic and reason. She may regret her choices in the morning, but she doesn't really have anyone to blame but herself. I think the level of understanding is much different between an adult and a small child.
     
  13. visceral_instinct Monkey see, monkey denigrate Valued Senior Member

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    What Cutsie said. She still has a choice. Is he hypnotising her into a state where she cannot say no? No? Then she has no one to blame but herself if she wakes up next to him and thinks 'Shit! What was I doing with this piece of manure?' however much he manoeuvred and used strategies to make himself attractive to her, she still could have said no if she wanted.

    WHAT THE FUCK??!!!

    That makes me so angry. A kid having a fucking seizure and all he can do is perv over you?? I hope he gets raped and dies of AIDS.
     
  14. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    bells that is apsolutly discussting

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    we had a lecture on this sort of subject which at the time i thought was self evident.

    now huges example was the number of nurses who end up marrying the bikies on the othapedics ward and his comment was "if your transfering someone with a broken arm, your duty to them ends as soon as you drop them off at the hospital and if you were to meet them in a pub somewhere and afterwards realise they were that pt you transported so what". he then went on to say that mental health pts on the other hand remain off limits FOR EVERY because of the power imbalance. your situation i would put WAY closer to the mental health end of the spectrum of duty of care than to the other side and i hope that his patner reported him for it and he was sacked on the spot. im sure that if SAAS's director herd about a SA ambo doing that he wouldnt even have time to clear his locker before he was fired and probably brought up on charges
     
  15. Fauxtoegraft Registered Member

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    So this thread likens women to children...? Off I go to find intelligent discourse. Buh bye.
     
  16. Thoreau Valued Senior Member

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    I know a few EMT's and lemme tell ya, they REALLY need to up the standard of training and requirements. It takes very little schooling with virtually no focus on character.

    They are taught the very basics of healthcare and are expected to save lives. That alone is sickening, much less that fact that nearly anyone can be an EMT with a few months of schooling and again, no emphasis on human character or courtesy.
     
  17. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    MZ3Boy84 i dont know what country your talking about but its CERTAINLY not Australia. In order to be a paramedic in Australia you require a degree in paramedical science (health science- paramedics, ect), then a further 2 year internship and after that you MIGHT get a job. Paramedics is in the proccess of becoming proffessional here as well which means we are not only being trained to be frontline health care proffessionals, treating, not just providing "first aid" and transporting but we are also coming under the power of our own proffessional body just like nurses, lawyers, doctors ect called ACAP (Australian collage of ambulance proffessionals)
     
  18. Thoreau Valued Senior Member

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    Here in the US you are just required to attending a technical school.
     
  19. John99 Banned Banned

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    Depends on the EMT service. Some are highly trained and may need some college but dont delude yourself into thinking that technical schools are less advanced than many college classes. Sometimes they would be better and more focused too. Think about it, does an EMT need to take all college courses or is graduating high school and then studying the profession in classes that specifically focus on EMT procedures qualify a person to be an EMT? EMT is a very focused job, not like one wold be reading poetry to a person on a stretcher.
     
  20. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    john thats the point, here the job ISNT "put pt on strecher, take pt to hospital"

    The job is:

    "arive at sceen
    check danger
    check for imidiate time critical conditions
    assess pt
    diognose pt
    check if diognosis can be treated on site
    IF and only IF it cant concider transport to med center"

    We are NOT strecher barers, we are front line health care proffessionals in our own right and we are expected to be able to treat just like doctors but without the benifits of other opinions and further tests.
     
  21. John99 Banned Banned

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    It was a bit facetious but an EMT needs to focus on the problem at hand they dont offer advice or need to be experts with social sciences or after care.
     
  22. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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