If it don't kill you, it makes you stronger

Discussion in 'Free Thoughts' started by Kellisness, Mar 18, 2011.

  1. birch Valued Senior Member

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    5,077

    look at how many examples have been posted. this saying is so obviously incorrect for most applications, that it doesn't even need a lot of thought anyways.

    the fact people hold the version in their mind that it applies to everyone or everything else goes to show how dishonest and selfish it is. it's probably people who never really had anything serious to deal with either (so they can talk out of their ass) but screw them is their motto.

    actually, this type of saying on a proactive side rather than reactive would appeal to someone who is rather ruthless or insensitive to what others may be going through. it does because they aren't the ones who are dealing with it. i can imagine a slave driver saying something like this.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2011
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  3. Kellisness Registered Senior Member

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    There have been so many idiotic responses from people who don't even understand the saying. Strength refers to mental strength, not physical strength. Entire lives, even entire nations have been built on the strength that comes from adversity. That's what Nietzsche meant and you lot either don't know that (but you do now) or you're just being idiots.
     
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  5. birch Valued Senior Member

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    5,077
    you are the idiot. you are even worse than an idiot, you are also dishonest. your opening post asks if one "agrees" with it which many people responded that it depends and those were correct.

    you didn't ask what one thinks neitzsche meant which you would have had different responses. there is nothing in this saying that has any reference to just mental strength. that's why it's a saying, it can be applied to anything. it's not even really a clever saying either. it's rather dull and simplistic.

    what doesn't kill you doesn't always even make one mentally stronger either. there are people who have gone through hell and have gone insane from it but didn't literally kill them. there are nations that have been ravaged and they are not stronger for it. again, it depends. adversity to what does not kill you is not necessarily the same and i think you know that, you are just dishonest. there are different levels of adversity. there are people who have been intentionally weakened by those who have more power, even occuring today. they may be enslaved and kept ignorant and weak. they are not mentally stronger for it. i remember a case of kids shackled to a room forced to weave rugs. they are given minimal food to survive and kept weak. they also lose their eyesight as well as never get an education. they become both weakened in mind and body permanently. that is an example of intense adversity that is beyond the capability of recovery and definitely not to gain bonus strength which this saying is really alluding to.

    it can also be applied proactively and reactively.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2011
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  7. Kellisness Registered Senior Member

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    If you don't know what Nietzsche meant then you have no business even posting here. Reported.
     
  8. birch Valued Senior Member

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    5,077
    you are very dishonest. you are reporting me for similar responses that others gave.

    we know that you were not after what nietzche meant, but that their responses showed that what you wanted to plug does not coincide but they are still correct.

    this is why you are upset.
     
  9. Kellisness Registered Senior Member

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    Reported.
     
  10. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

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    Ooh! I wonder how that is going to end...
    Goodbye Kellisness.
    And none too soon either.
     
  11. birch Valued Senior Member

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    5,077
    reported for what? didn't you just say you lied in the other post? if your intention was honest from the getgo, then why didn't you just post what you claimed you were going to do?

    is this because all different responses clearly show that saying is not emphatically true but you believed it was?

    i bet you haven't gone through an iota of shit in your life and that is why you were so confident it is true. when all the responses showed it is not true for all cases, it befuddled you but you don't have the character to come clean.

    lol.
     
  12. chimpkin C'mon, get happy! Registered Senior Member

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    Apparently not

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    I'm really sorry to hear that-that's asbestos-exposure crud...and wish they'd okay a dual heart-lung transplant for you...but they prolly won't.

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    You see...I think the deal is...is that what people hear in " What doesn't kill you makes you stronger!" and "Chin up!" and other such phrases...is maybe not what you may be intending-encouragement.

    What they probably hear is an admixture of the following:

    "Oh, your problems aren't so bad-and at any rate they aren't important, nobody wants to hear about how hard you've had it; so just shut up already and quit bothering the rest of us happy people about how unfortunate you are. You're being a real drag, and we're going to drive you off if you don't stop this instant!"

    What they call this in psychology-land is an invalidating response.
     
  13. birch Valued Senior Member

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    5,077
    otherwise known as 'asshole'.

    you can apply this saying as a very loose metaphor with a lot of salt to only minimal situations.

    also, this saying is so obvious it's mostly erroneous. if hurting others wasn't profitable, then people wouldn't do it if it makes the victim stronger. people also avoid injury because they know it makes them weaker.

    the people who can't figure things like this out are the ones who never even for a moment are willing to put themselves in the other's shoe. or worse, they do have an idea but they don't care. it doesn't even always take having to actually go through an experience, just some honesty or humility to imagine what it would actually be like or at least not ignore what goes on in the world that's happening all around them.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2011
  14. chimpkin C'mon, get happy! Registered Senior Member

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    Maybe...some people mean to be as awful as they are.. others just need a clue-by-four

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  15. birch Valued Senior Member

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    no, they don't. this topic shows clearly that only someone actually retarded would need a clue. if someone doesn't want to admit it's because it's intentional and they are using cognitive dissonance. there is ample evidence in the world. most people are just being intentionally selective to self-serving beliefs or opinions. that is tempting for anyone. you don't have to experience everything to know things. the only reason people call out dishonesty as stupidity is because there really is no way to do that most of the time. most people when they say things that are erroneous are usually doing that intentionally. you can tell this when there is ample evidence or direct contradiction in the world to prove otherwise. uneducated people are capable of learning, dishonesty is way worse and not excusable. they don't learn nearly as well and usually when their bs can't be held up. i would never call anyone stupid for just ignorance alone. it's only because i think they are doing that intentionally and they usually are. i think stupidity is knowing better but ignoring it. that truly is stupid.

    what i think is kind of funny is i think a thread like this was inspired by all the recent topics and posts about sociopaths, trauma and overcoming it etc. i could be wrong but it might have been.

    but what it is so typical is people take one incident and think it applies to everyone else. if one survived (relative), they think everyone can, and if they didn't they are not trying hard enough. even when i posted examples of people several times that didn't, it was probably ignored for the most part. this is the type of mentality where only those who survive have any representative meaning.

    there are those who have worse trauma and there are those who have less trauma. every situation is a little bit different. there are those who have had worse trauma than even me. still, even with that, everyone's threshold is different and even what would push one over the edge might not for another or as much or something else would be considered their worst fear.

    all people have to do is even look at themselves to know this. if they don't know, it's only because they are not exercising an iota of conscience or reflection. how can one even just watch the news and not know.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2011
  16. chimpkin C'mon, get happy! Registered Senior Member

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    A lot of people don't want to empathize , to think "Oh wow, that can happen to me..." or some such.

    But no, some people think they're being encouraging...because... *turns issue around and clicks lenses a bit* to some people, saying "Yeah, your problems are really bad," instead of feeling validating...actually feels like an attack or putdown to them.

    Tends to be more a guy thing...but not always.

    It's like you said to your best friend "I feel like shit," and your friend said "Yeah, you really look it too!."

    You might get pissed, no?

    So, what these people want when distressed IS stuff like "Ah, you'll get over this! no sweat! What doesn't kill you makes you stronger!" and stuff that would make you and I get all mad and feel invalidated.

    They want their problems minimized, so that they themselves feel that their problems are not the overwhelming Big Deal that they feel them to be in that moment.

    Not a good or bad communication style...but those who want validation and those who want minimizing...well, they kinda piss each other off.

    I don't think I can solve that one.:shrug:

    We have a tendency to project ourselves outward...like I do with the whole honesty and empathy thing-and you correctly observed; some people are just crumbs without being sociopaths...and what's going on in the heads of others-

    Well, what we have a tendency to do is say "I'd only do that if I were being malicious...therefore this person is being malicious-have at you!"

    But some actions (obviously far from all) can have a number of different motives besides flat-out maliciousness.

    This actually is one of them.
    So it does to think, "What other motives might this person have besides bad ones?" Or just ask prior to going ballistic. THEN go ballistic if you don't like the answer.
     
  17. birch Valued Senior Member

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    5,077
    uh, what? you are WAAAY off on this one. what you are alluding to is the opposite of what the responses were besides the more realistic answers.

    it was clear that it's a saying that could be applied to anything and most people recognized that. this could be done in a middle school classroom and it would be considered as to how this could apply.

    that is usually what people do with a saying like 'what doesn't kill me, makes me stronger'. the honest ones are going to think of examples of how this would fit as well as not apply. the ones who try to pawn this off as a truism with no exceptions are not going to put their ass on the line. and if they do believe that (meaning themselves), they would have said so.

    i saw no posts which had a pretense of machoism were actually referring to themselves whilst saying what doesn't kill "me" will make me stronger.

    the only 'macho' posts were always applied in general about people, not about themselves. of course because they know it's not really true or does have exceptions.

    "what doesn't kill me, will make me stronger", like they are really going to go try that one on for size just to see. lol
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2011
  18. chimpkin C'mon, get happy! Registered Senior Member

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    I was trying to find some reason as to why Kellisness, and other people, might view that type of minimizing response as actually encouraging and kind, not what it feels like to me (and you I'm guessing), which is: "Shaddap, ya bodder'in me!"

    (Think Brooklyn accent there, it gets the contempt *just* right).

    Birch, you and I miscommunicate so wonderfully. :cheers: It's like I want to explain myself so you understand? but I seem to cause more misunderstandings that way.
    I do not know how to fix this conundrum.

    Get the right guy?and it tends to be young men... some of them don't *actually* do that, but wow will they push the envelope to the limit...sometimes past it and get killed. Why they pay so much for car insurance.

    People might think that "What doesn't kill me, makes me stronger," until it almost happens...then they think "Oh SHIT, that could have actually KILLED me!"

    That's a wakey-wakey moment, that is...nearly dying's always an interesting and instructive experience. Made me thoughtful every time.
     
  19. birch Valued Senior Member

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    5,077
    your head in the clouds over-reaching is a bit exaggerated. there is no miscommunication because i said i don't think the ones i responded to actually meant this or that they were trying to be encouraging, i think they just are not being truthful. how do i know? because even someone who experiences or thinks like your example would admit there are exceptions when it's presented.

    few people actually think like this anyways or the fly by the seat of my pants types, except some teenagers and a few adults but even they know there are still exceptions.

    your example is also pretty piss-poor because it's more about having escaped injury as well, not just death. relief you survived is not necessarily strength anyways. this could be either proactive or reactive. it's kind of like someone going on a dare-devil ride along a canyon at high speed on a motorcycle and escaping death. you may even be able to dare some people to do that with them thinking 'whatever doesn't kill me, will make me stronger' or something along those lines. but it's also because they have some skill to some extent to be confident enough that they have a chance to survive. still, even they usually know that there are exceptions.

    i have a much more realistic example for you:

    that's quite different than say signal and kellisness were doused in gasoline and lit on fire. wait a few minutes, put out the fire and then treat the burn wounds. this will be excruciating and i'm almost certain, they would not survive it with any semblance of being 'mentally or physically stronger'. most likely, they would have ptsd and an immense fear of fire for the rest of their lives as well as other issues from the physical scars.

    if one were to be really sadistic, they could treat the wounds and make them survive with no anesthetic or chemical coma, but it would most likely drive them insane or so mentally feeble and paranoid from the experience for the rest of their pitiful lives, even though they may survive.

    in modern times, their are pain relievers and anesthetics. in the past, this type of injury will make you wish you had died for the ones that survived. it also does not make them mentally stronger or physically stronger.

    i just don't respect anyone who has the immense cowardliness to tell themselves or others that 'what doesn't kill you, will make you stronger' when in reality they are dismissing very serious injuries in order to say this.

    that's not macho, that's a coward.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2011
  20. birch Valued Senior Member

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    5,077
    http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/insight-therapy/201008/what-doesnt-kill-you-makes-you-weaker

    What doesn't kill you, makes you weaker
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2011
  21. SilentLi89 Registered Senior Member

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    263
    It's just a proverb, right? So it doesnt have to make literal sense; most proverbs don't. Metaphorically speaking I think this saying is true. No more or less than "you can't teach an old dog new tricks" or that "there is no honor among theives" (a favorite of mine). Neither of these is literally an absolute truth. But applied in certain circumstances carry a lot of truth in their metaphorical meaning.

    But in the literal sense. A friend of mine fell while rock climbing (bouldering I believe it's called) because she wasn't strong enough to lift herself with only one hand. She got hurt pretty bad, but it didn't kill her. She had a strong passion for rock climbing though so after she got better she did a great deal of strength and endurance training before climbing again. Her fall didn't kill her, but it gave her the will to take rock climbing more seriously and because of that she became mentally stronger and physically stronger too because of her accident. See? It does work, in really, really specific situations

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  22. chimpkin C'mon, get happy! Registered Senior Member

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    So you view Kellisness as merely being dishonest, that this is the sole explanation for his behavior...

    And I view him, and people who spout(non)truisms like this possibly trying to be encouraging in a misguided way, possibly being dishonest, possibly being innocent of any real disaster in their own lives, possibly not caring?

    That different motivations can produce the same behavior?

    And so this minimizing type of behavior has perhaps more ambiguity in some cases (although maybe not in this one)?

    This is all clear?

    Alright then, I can wander on...
     
  23. birch Valued Senior Member

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    5,077
    all those examples posted by different people showed there were clear and obvious exceptions, they chose to ignore it. you do not have to go through any disaster to know it. even (if they are being truthful with themselves) teenagers understand it. not only that but the op even called everyone an idiot for not agreeing with neitzche.

    they are adults, not little kids.

    if they care or not or their motivation does not make the point necessarily correct. the point of the topic is what will be addressed not according to how they feel about it. you are making unrealistic excuses.

    what are you? acting as a mother hen?
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2011

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