Richilin, Lori, other Bible-beaters - Hipocrisy abounds. When Flash was kind enough to post a selection of bible-bloopers, the immediate response was, and I quote, "who cares?". Later, a metaphoric reference to the earth was touted as proof that the bible was in fact perfect. These reasonings are mutually exclusive. For the sake of arguement at the very least, it would behoove you to pick a side of the fence and stay there. The bible is not perfect (I won't even broach the legitimacy issue at this time), regardless of the intent with which it was written. You say man simply cannot grasp its full scope? Then why on earth would it be written in the first place. Would you write a code of conduct for a bacterium? Or for a grain of sand if that better fits your analogy? Another question for the people constantly searching out new meanings in the bible; what tremendous arrogance do you have to think that you can re-interpret the works of your god merely to fit your current worldview? FyreStar Sometimes a book is just a book
JMitch, You have a choice as weather or not to take another breath. You can do it or you can drown in the tub or do any number of things. None of these things was given so you could kill yourself. Yet, by your own choice, you can. Even more, you only have access to the things God first provided you. You can create no new matter with which to halt your next breath. This exixtance belongs to God. The interaction He allows us to have through our own choices is often confused for power. For Satan, it is the same. Does that help? I hope so. You can contact me privately at isda@gte.net
Dear Isdaman: No, I am not angry with you. Maybe I was the one passing some judgment? (Ha, wouldn't be surprised, learn, Vicki, learn!) I realize I am not "relatively benign" in the eyes of God, I am an incredible human being with great potential to love and do great deeds in the world, and, of course, great potential for evil. But, maybe I am "relatively benign" compared to a Hitler or a Stalin?! Which brings me to one of the points you made in your last post: How can my sins be compared to that of a Hitler or a Stalin? Not that I am being arrogant (well, maybe a little, well, maybe a lot, I am human!), but my sins do seem benign in comparison to one who, of his own free will, was responsible for the death of over 10 million human beings. That's an awful lot of spilled blood. Wouldn't his sins "weigh" more than mine? Wouldn't this person have more to repent for than most of us? Here is something to consider: Hitler was a vegetarian, abstained from sex his whole life and died a virgin, and led a rather monk-like existence. Do you think it is possible he was one of those incredibly evolved humans, like Jesus, but one who chose the dark side (like Lucifer) instead of one of light and love? And of his own free will choice, choose to bring hell to earth for a while, and because of his great power and level of evolvement, he was able to pull it off? And where would someone like this be now, how would someone like this repent, is it possible to repent, is there hope in the eyes of God for someone like that? I do concede that Jesus is the Son of God, and spoke of Love and mercy. But maybe, just maybe, he trying to convey to us that you are a Son of God and I am a Daughter of God, and maybe, just maybe, we all have the same potential as he had, and he was instructing us how to achieve what he had achieved, do think this is a possibility? And do you think it possible that Jesus was not the only one in the history of human beings who "made it". I believe it is quite possible that there have other human beings who achieved what he had achieved. Something else for you to consider: Christianity 1,700 years ago was quite different in form than it is today. As you know, through the centuries, much blood has been spilled in the name of Jesus. Do you think it a possibility that the Bible has changed form through the centuries to suit the needs of power- and money-hungry white men (and it was white men, not black men, or red men, or yellow men)? It became something they could use to give them justification to murder and to seize power and grow rich? If you and I could sneak into the heavily-guarded, underground vaults of the Vatican (and Area 51 is not the only place where deadly force is permitted!), I think we would find the pre-St. James Bible manuscripts, which I am positive would include scriptures and ideas which would be considered sacriligous to most Christians today. Do you think these things may be possible? Maybe we should be asking questions in order to get down to the pure form of Christianity and of what Jesus was trying to teach us?!?! Anyway, I enjoy these exchanges, hope I am not scaring you off with all of this stuff! Love and Peace to you, Vicki
Thank You Fyrestar!!! Excuse me if I am not speaking correctly...LOL..hard day at work.. and already drank 5 beers on the way home LOL.. anyway... you brought out exactly what I have been trying to say! Isn't it sooooooooo funny that no one will answer any questions that goes against what christians believe. They allllllllll want to pass those comments off as if it were nothing! Just as long as they can get their point across..that is all that matters. They 100% IGNORE anything which does otherwise! Christians...yuck... leaves a bad taste in your mouth..ya know???? I am just waiting for one to have the guts enough to take on the issues brought up by non-christians... instead of lame answers like "but god's word is true" hahaha I say prove it..but know what??? I haven't found one that can!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Nice post FyreStar. I agree pretty much with what you're saying. I have no idea why people even bother to debate the existence of a god, however. People either believe in god, or they don't. I've never known anyone to change their mind about the matter. The few people I know who have changed their minds never actually had full faith in their previous view in the first place. I personally don't believe in an entity called god, but I won't try to deny others their right to believe. I think the only thing which bothers me about Christianity is the tendency to interpret the Bible as literal truth. I've read through many of these posts, and there are lots of examples of contradictions within the Bible. I don't really care. The Bible is a set of stories which, if you think about them, are simply fables meant to teach lessons. The "truth" that it teaches is unimportant. One last thing, for those of you who choose to believe that the Bible is literal truth: it is well documented that the bible has been changed many times to suit the needs of corrupt pontifs, etc. I was even taught this in sunday school when my parents used to make me go. I'm not saying that you can't go on believing that the bible is pure and holy, I just thought that this is something that all of you should know. Like I said before, I don't believe in "God" per se, but I'm not going to argue over it with anyone. Anyone that wants to spit out a flame at me, go right ahead, but it's not going to change my mind, or anyone else's.
Dear Vicki, I, too, am extremely pleased to have these exchanges. I Love to talk about the great things God has done. One of the benefits is that every time I do, I gain new insight. If I rested on what I studied just a week ago, I'd become stale. You give me a needed challenge and opportunity to examine the dealings of God with man. I thank you for that. You in no way scare me off <IMG SRC="htp://www.exosci.com/ubb/icons/icon10.gif" WIDTH="15" HEIGHT="15" VSPACE="0" HSPACE="0" BORDER="0">. I'll try to take this point by point. However, some of these points may run together. <FONT COLOR="#7F0000">Quote:</FONT> <FONT COLOR="#7F0000">I realize I am not "relatively benign" in the eyes of God, I am an incredible human being with great potential to love and do great deeds in the world, and, of course, great potential for evil. But, maybe I am "relatively benign" compared to a Hitler or a Stalin?! Which brings me to one of the points you made in your last post: How can my sins be compared to that of a Hitler or a Stalin? Not that I am being arrogant (well, maybe a little, well, maybe a lot, I am human!), but my sins do seem benign in comparison to one who, of his own free will, was responsible for the death of over 10 million human beings. That's an awful lot of spilled blood. Wouldn't his sins "weigh" more than mine? Wouldn't this person have more to repent for than most of us?</FONT> Answer: If you've ever purchased pigs feet, ox tail, or spare ribs, I'm sure, you're aware that the price of these goods is commensurate with the weight. The only problem is that these foods have a low meat to bone ratio. The interest of every shopper is how much meat there is. Though the appearance may be large, the only reason you pay is because of the actual meat. The value of meat vs. bone, throughout the whole item, can only be determined when it is examined under the scrutiny of your pearly white teeth. Before that, all you have is the outward appearance that looks like a massive hunk of flesh. Sin is the same way. Outwardly, to man, it appears to be greater or smaller. The superstructure beneath is not visible. Only through the judgement of God's pearly whites can its value be determined. Jesus said that the greatest commandment is to love the LORD God with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself. If we'd do this, we'd commit no sin. What Jesus gave us was the benchmark that God judges by. All sins are against God and are a sign of a lack of PERFECT LOVE for God. Hitler is a wonderful example. For man, he is the benchmark of what it is to be an evil human. He obviously committed plenty of sins. The key is how those sins relate to the benchmark of God. For man, murder, rape, homosexuality, and violence top the list of the worst sins. God's only allowance in sin is how much you Loved compared to how much you knew how to Love. The kind of things to be found on God's top sins list are things like not helping your brother when you knew he needed it and you had the compactly to, bearing false witness, and not forgiving others knowing that God has forgiven you. Seems upside down doesn't it? God's emphasis isn't on the flesh. Man's is. God's point is how it relates to Love. Therefore, someone exposed to God's Word all his life, staying in the church, reading the Bible, putting on a show of outward Love, while, in reality, having never surrendered his life to Jesus Christ, would no doubt suffer, in Hell, greater than even Hitler. Neither the outward actions of the most righteous looking man or the most evil looking man matters to God. What He wants to get to is the heart of the matter and how it relates to Love. That's not an excuse to murder and steel. God says that every man is born with His Truth written on his heart. The big question is just like with Nixon, Regan, and Clinton, " What did you know and when did you know it?" <FONT COLOR="#7F0000">Quote:</FONT> <FONT COLOR="#7F0000">Here is something to consider: Hitler was a vegetarian, abstained from sex his whole life and died a virgin, and led a rather monk-like existence. Do you think it is possible he was one of those incredibly evolved humans, like Jesus, but one who chose the dark side (like Lucifer) instead of one of light and love? And of his own free will choice, choose to bring hell to earth for a while, and because of his great power and level of evolvement, he was able to pull it off? And where would someone like this be now, how would someone like this repent, is it possible to repent, is there hope in the eyes of God for someone like that?</FONT> Answer: I think we just covered the outward works of man in the eyes of God. The package that man produces always says says Speed, Power, Fame, Fortune, Righteousness, and Romance. Once you expose the inside to light, all you get is the same old lump of coal. Hitler was no more than a man blinded by the evil lusts of his own heart. Those that followed him, followed in kind after the evil lusts of their own hearts only adding to the appearance of power. Yet, they were just as week as you and me. None of them had the power over death that belongs only to Jesus. The distinction is that Jesus is God. I refer you back to when I said, "God did something incredible!!!!! It's hard to comprehend. All I can say is that God is not limited by the same physical laws that man is. Ya see, when God sent Jesus through the virgin Mary, He impregnated her with Himself. He never stopped being God. He was still everywhere. He just, in a way, extended Himself. He came and He served us." God manifests Himself to us as three distinct persons, if you will, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit/Ghost. In each He reveals a different aspect of Himself. Jesus didn't have to achieve any special level of enlightenment as a man. God is the only light. Satan would have us to believe that we could achieve light of our own power. Man, being ever eager to believe anything that places man at the center of all things, is quick to jump on this as his truth. Hay, but, doesn't that exclude Satan's ambition as wanting to be the center of all worship? You know. He wanted to be God. No. Not at all. I answered a question for JMitch. Here it is with the answer I gave to follow: Q: If God created and controls everything, why does Satan exist? Why a division of power? A: You have a choice as weather or not to take another breath. You can do it or you can drown in the tub or do any number of things. None of these things was given so you could kill yourself. Yet, by your own choice, you can. Even more, you only have access to the things God first provided you. You can create no new matter with which to halt your next breath. This existence belongs to God. The interaction He allows us to have through our own choices is often confused for power. For Satan, it is the same. Satan understands this. He's one pretty smart dude. God's Word says that Satan was the first liar. It also says that Satan is the author of confusion. If you choose to go by what is contrary to God, you choose to go Satan's way. Though he gives choices of which way to go, they're all still his choices. Man is the one fooled into thinking he has power. Everything Satan does is a weak copy of what God has done -- only twisted. Jesus offered us REAL POWER,... POWER, in His name, even over devils. Wonderfully, there is hope. There's hope even for Hitler's of this world as long as they are alive in this world. Remember the trial example I gave you. This life is the pre-trial confinement. If you don't get an attorney now, don't bother asking for one when you get to court. The judge won't hear it. Don't bother saying, "I'll give all the money back. I'll rebuild the homes I burned", after the judgement has been passed down. The judge won't hear it. God promises that He will forgive ALL of your sins if you repent ( turn away from ) of you sins and trust in Him that the Savior He sent has come to Save you, has paid the price for your sins, and is risen from the dead. He will do the same for you. First, He will make you spiritually alive. You will be in fellowship with God. He will send His Holy Spirit ( the Comforter ) to live within you. You heart will be His temple. Secondly, when you separate from this flesh, you get a promotion. He will take you home to everlasting Life. All others go to everlasting Death. Between that time of Salvation ( When you repent and turn to God ) and the day you separate from this flesh, you may be called upon to suffer like Jesus suffered so as to advance the Kingdom of God and spread His Glory to men. The catch is that you have to trust in Him while you have time. He also promises to reward you for all your sufferings in His name. Again, even in rewards, His concern is where your heart was at. Did you do good, did you suffer, did you abstain just to glorify yourself? Or, did you do it to Glorify God? <FONT COLOR="#7F0000">Quote:</FONT> <FONT COLOR="#7F0000">I do concede that Jesus is the Son of God, and spoke of Love and mercy. But maybe, just maybe, he trying to convey to us that you are a Son of God and I am a Daughter of God, and maybe, just maybe, we all have the same potential as he had, and he was instructing us how to achieve what he had achieved, do think this is a possibility? And do you think it possible that Jesus was not the only one in the history of human beings who "made it". I believe it is quite possible that there have other human beings who achieved what he had achieved. </FONT> Answer: God promises to chastise His own. For others, He says, there will come a time when, basically, His patience will ware thin and He will leave them to the lusts of their own hearts. His children, He promises, He will never forsake and no one can take them from Him. There is a clear division. Again, you are either for Him or Against Him. Warning: God reserves the right to determine what constitutes what is "FOR" and what is "AGAINST" Him. Those, and only those, He says are for Him, He calls His children. All others, in the day of judgement, will He tell to get away from Him because He did not know them. All His children are joint heirs in Christ Jesus. All His children get to speak in the power and authority of their Father. The instruction and demonstration of Jesus is how to have fellowship with God. It all comes, surprisingly enough, through a FREE gift of something none of us could ever afford to pay on our own or even together. The atrocity of sin against God is more mighty that we know. God's Word affirms that there is a way that seems right to a man but leads to Death. His way is narrow. Most will go the wrong way because the way to destruction is so very wide and easy to take. Man must meet God on God's terms. He has no need or obligation to make different ways to Him. All sin is of the the same stuff. Just like matter must obey the laws of matter or it is not of matter, man must obey the laws of God or he is not of God. Therefore, there is only one division; for or against. Following in kind, there is only one redemption, one Savior, one name under Heaven by which men are Saved -- Jesus Christ. <FONT COLOR="#7F0000">Quote:</FONT> <FONT COLOR="#7F0000">Something else for you to consider: Christianity 1,700 years ago was quite different in form than it is today. As you know, through the centuries, much blood has been spilled in the name of Jesus. Do you think it a possibility that the Bible has changed form through the centuries to suit the needs of power- and money-hungry white men (and it was white men, not black men, or red men, or yellow men)? It became something they could use to give them justification to murder and to seize power and grow rich? If you and I could sneak into the heavily-guarded, underground vaults of the Vatican (and Area 51 is not the only place where deadly force is permitted!), I think we would find the pre-St. James Bible manuscripts, which I am positive would include scriptures and ideas which would be considered sacriligous to most Christians today. Do you think these things may be possible? Maybe we should be asking questions in order to get down to the pure form of Christianity and of what Jesus was trying to teach us?!?!</FONT> Answer: The only difference in Christianity from the day of Pentecost to today is the trust that the average Christian is really giving to Jesus. It's a sad shame when you have a 40 billion horse power engine and you never get out of first gear. All of His children have access to the same Father, the same power, and the same Glory. What is lacking, sometimes, is the trust that He really is there as a comforter, a friend, a father, a pillar, and a confidante. It's kind of like not trusting that your parents will understand or help you through something even though they have in the past. The Bible has never changed. We have more historical documentation of the Bible than any other ancient texts put together. No one questions Plato or Socrates. Historical evidence of the Bible dwarfs these. From the Dead Sea Scrolls to now, the Bible is equal. Men have tried to change, suppress, abuse, and misuse it. Satan, even, has quoted from it. He tried to tempt and trick Jesus with it. Man will always make excuses for himself. With a hammer I can build or I can murder. God will take vengeance for those that misuse His Word and never repent. Remember, He's long suffering. He's still giving a chance for everyone to repent. Besides that, there's a whole eternity in which to honor the righteous or repay the unrighteous. When God chose Abram, he was not one of God's people. God had no people. Abram trusted God. God made him the father of His people and gave him the name of Abraham. The pure form of Christianity is to Love God with all of our hearts and our neighbors as our selves. There's nothing left to search for. This task is enough to be concerned with seeing how we never seem to achieve it. There's nothing left to search for. I do have some questions for you. have you surrendered you life to Christ? Have you repented of your sins and accepted God's plan for Salvation? If not, why? What's stopping you from trusting God right now? What will you say in that day of judgement? ------------------ Feel free to contact me privately at isda@gte.net . Come to Apostle Creed Online for Christian web developement.
Flash, I engaged you. Does that count for nothing? Am I lame for doing so not on your terms? I will not bother trying to prove God in words ( argument ) but in deeds. I can no more change your mind than I could change the color of night. I'm sorry, you are not the center of it all. God's Word will Live on and be just as true weather you accept it or not. No one has to accept the fact that high voltage wires can kill you. You're just as free to test your views through to the end. You do seem quite intent on drawing someone in to argue with you? Why is that? What are you trying to hide?
Isdaman, hahaha No, I DO realize that I am not the center of it all...god, I don't want to be. All I wanted was for someone to answer the questions..not talk around them. That seems to be what almost every christian here does. If you sense that I am trying to draw someone out just to argue..man, wrong again. I just get frustrated... What am I trying to hide????????? LOL Come on! Just because I am wanting answers doesn't mean I am trying to hide shit. I have nothing to hide. LOL
Flash, I understand your frustration. I apologize for not taking into account your previous efforts. As much time as I wish I had to answer each and every last point, I just don't have it. That's why I sent you and answer that grouped all your points together. I've learned to boil things down and get to the meat of the matter. All of your points, being of the same root, only required me to produce one answer. Here it is so that you can re-examine it. Flash, a quick answer to you points is that your perspective is false in every case. If John & Paul climbed a tree and I told Steve that John climbed a tree and got some fruit, while, Mary told Sally that John & Paul climbed a tree, And Tom told Jay that Paul climbed a tree and laughed, we would still all be talking about the same event. Even when someone is not spoken of ( angles at the tomb ), it does not mean the lack of the other presence. If your right eye and your left eye could see the exact same picture from the exact same perspective, God would have given you only one. He gives us different aspects of His Glory through different men. He only loads he story with what is of value to that perspective. Try the trick where you look through a cardboard tube with one eye while looking at the open palm of your hand with your other eye and about 6-10 inches away from your face. Can you really see through your hand? Both eyes tell the truth. It's the man perceiving that fails to connect the dots properly. God's word is without flaws!!!!! Jesus Loves you and there is Salvation from Sin. Read it again for the first time. Let me know if there was some other point that you were trying to make. As you can see, I'm new here, but, I try to engage everyone as deeply as I can and see fit. I will not simply chuck you aside. I respect the fact that you are searching. ------------------ Feel free to contact me privately at isda@gte.net . I'm a Christian Web Developer. I run Apostle Creed Online.
A thumbs up from Isdaman????? Wow. LOL Alright... I just believe that the bible shouldn't have soooooooo many contradictions. Thing is.. you have to admit...there are tons. Why do you think you do not have answers for it? See- what I don't get is you and others STILL believe! Why???? If I talked nothing but contradictions all the time wouldn't you wonder??? Something doesn't add up. one and one and one is three.. but not when reading the bible. Why wouldn't god talk to everyone if he is no respector of persons??? There is more proof that god doesn't exist than him existing. So what does that tell you?
Flash, I typed incorrectly. I have the answers. Time to take on each and every last one is what I don't have. My GOOF! Give me three of your best shots. The truth is easy. ------------------ Feel free to contact me privately at isda@gte.net . I'm a Christian Web Developer. I run Apostle Creed Online.
ISDN, You will agree that Jesus was only killed on earth one time, right? Yet the 4 conflicting reports exist. If there are 4 conflicting reports in the bible (even though the word of god is perfect) bible's description of the event is imperfect(according to man's view and since no man can know the mind of god we are forced to take man's view). That means there is great likelyhood that all of you have mis-interpreted the bible(and judging by the different denominational beliefs this appears to be true). So if the Bible's intent is to spread the word of God(good news), and it is ambiguous how can that be perfect(or perhaps it was not meant for man, but for someone who can accurately decipher it)?? The bible does describe many other events, from which many people conform thier religious beliefs. Who (other than God) is to say if some, any or all of the infomation is incorrect by your interpretation. According to you, God told, an imperfect being(human) to write down something. If those that actually observed an even cannot accurately write it down then why would someone who heard the word of God be able to write it down accurately? So why would you use the Bible to guide the direction of your life and as a resource for what Jesus(God) said if what your reading may or may not have anything to do with the will of God??? If the bible is potetially chalked full of perfect "Mis-interpretations" and people base their religon upon it, what does this suggest??
Sorry, I meant ISDAman not ISDN(man) (sorry didn't pay much attention to the moniker and made assumption since you were web designer)
Blower, Thank you. I must be moving up in the world. People are paying attention to me now Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!. Please, make a defined accusation regarding differences in this story. I will answer to it. This is important. We both view the same work through two different minds. Without a well defined point of interaction, we'll just end up dancing around the answer you are really looking for. Your assumption with my name was not your first. Prior to the press of even the first key, without having examined your target, you engaged your target. Reconnaissance is key. I've left many exact statements of my faith on this bulletin board. Moreover, I'm a cooperative target. For you, Blower, I'll be happy to recount the glory of the foundation of my faith. As pertaining to the aspect of the inspired Word of God, I affirm whole heatedly that the Bible is God Breathed. Just as with Flash, I ask you for three of your most damning points. Please, be exact. Faith in the truth is easy. Faith in anything else is a tireless and writhing ball of frustration. The Bible is my guide in life because it is without flaw or contradiction. It is Alive. Jesus is the Living Word of God. Jesus is the risen Savior. As you can see, we are in two different worlds. That's why I asked you to give me a well defined point. I do want to answer your questions. P.S. - Thanks for showing what appears to be a showing of Jesus as God in your post. ------------------ Feel free to contact me privately at isda@gte.net . I'm a Christian Web Developer. I run Apostle Creed Online.
ISDAMAN, AWWWWWWW come on man!! You say the bible does not have contradictions???????????? What the heck was the ones I wrote in the last post that had all the scriptures about that you KEEP SAYING is due to others views. I do not mean to sound like a bitch... but really..it sounds as if you are 100% delusional!!!!!!! ALL the last scriptures I put on the last post contradict! yet, you make it out as if it is due to man! If this is suppose to be god's word..then WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY doesn't it add up???? See... I bet money that you will not or cannot answer that!!! No one can!
Flash, Not to hurt you, but, it does not add up because you can't add. Give me three of you most powerful and COMPLETE complaints and I will dissect them for you. Otherwise you are simply venting. To start your mind to rolling, look at this. In Acts Chapter 13 Verse 25 Paul said, "And as John fulfilled his course, he said, Whom think ye that I am? I am not he. But, behold, there cometh one after me, whose shoes of his feet I am not worthy to loose." In John Chapter 1 Verse 27 John the Baptist said, "He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose." Mark 1: 7 says, "And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose." You tell me where there is a flaw or contradiction! I thought you expressed that you didn't want to argue. You seem to be yelling and making no point at all. Also, I have responded to your post under, "The true question of religion and god". ---------------------------------------------All Verses Excerpted from The Complete Multimedia Bible -- King James Version Copyright (c) 1994 Compton's NewMedia, Inc. ------------------ Feel free to contact me privately at isda@gte.net . I'm a Christian Web Developer. I run Apostle Creed Online.
To all If you read up on the history of the origin of what is our Bible today, and take into account the many, many times it has been translated from the earliest scraps, scrolls and manuscripts, to the present editions, and then compare not the verbatim word for word or letter for letter consistency, but the integrity of the message, it is difficult not to understand the Divine and Inspired nature of It`s message. ------------------ You throw the sand into the wind, and the wind blows it back again ...
