The gig is up.

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by universaldistress, May 7, 2011.

  1. arfa brane call me arf Valued Senior Member

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    7,832
    Did you miss this, then?
    . . . from the OP. The topic of this thread is "prove or disprove that God exists" more or less.
    That's why it amounts to meaningless bullshit. A lot like how this
    is absolutely meaningless.

    If I'm a theist, I have a "burden" ?? Nope, no burden here. A burden doesn't appear because you say so.
    Or maybe I'm not a theist, I'm an atheist so that's why "no burden"?

    Nope, I prefer to think I am neither a theist nor atheist. I don't believe reading a treatise is going to help enlighten me as to the presence or absence of a God. In fact, I prefer to not call what I have knowledge of "God", because then "I'm a theist", because "I have to be", right? I mean, I used the G word.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2011
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  3. mustafhakofi I sa'id so Registered Senior Member

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    No the topic is why do you believe without proof. It says nothing about lacking belief.
    Lmao, You're either one or the other there is no middle ground.

    "If it is to be established that there is a God, then we have to have good grounds for believing that this is indeed so. Until and unless some such grounds are produced we have literally no reason at all for believing; and in that situation the only reasonable posture must be that of either the negative atheist or the agnostic. So the onus of proof has to rest on the proposition of theism" - Anthony Flew
     
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  5. arfa brane call me arf Valued Senior Member

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    Really? Then I must be the only person on the planet who knows where this nonexistent "middle ground" is.

    What if, there is no need to establish that there is a God? Or if establishing the existence of a God has nothing to do with discussing the existence of a God? I bet you think that's crazy. It's so crazy it's true.
    Note that Mr Flew does not stipulate what the "reason for believing" is. Nor does he say anything about how to produce any grounds. Does he mean "by using logic"? By trying to discuss it in an internet forum?
    And if that's true, since I do have proof, there is no onus, no burden for me.

    Since you don't have proof (I assume this is why you believe there is no God), I think that means you have a burden, not me.

    If you assume that I believe everything the Bible says, or any other scripture, then you're making a mistake. But this thread is based on a mistaken idea, a misconception, in other words.
     
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  7. mustafhakofi I sa'id so Registered Senior Member

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    Rotflmao, you people are so funny.

    No, however if you or people like you want others to find them credible, they should either keep the mouth shut about the god/gods or provide proof.
    For it to be proven it has to be verified by others, what you have is wishful thinking.
    I have never once said I have a belief in no god, what I have said is, "I make no claim that a god doesn't exist, as that would be infantile, I simply have no reason to believe the claims of the theist without further corroborating evidence."
    I don't know what you believe and I don't give a damn. However this thread isn't based on anything, it merely asks why do you or people like you believe without proof.
    It's not a hard question, but it is a dodged question.
     
  8. arfa brane call me arf Valued Senior Member

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    No it doesn't. That's the first fundamental error in your (and Anthony Flew's) argument.
    And this corroborating evidence must consist of verbal or written evidence, provided by theists whose burden it is to so provide it?
    There we are, you've just repeated the first mistake.
    That's funny (and I'm laughing at you). You don't care about what I believe enough to keep posting? Interesting.
    I DO NOT believe without proof. Once more, in case you blinked: I have proof.
    That this proof is not something I've written down, or recorded, only means that I'm not making the same fundamental error that you are.

    People like me, huh? Why should I care if you or anyone else finds me credible? Frankly, I don't give a damn.

    You should stop with the "they should keep their mouth shut" thing.
    I am keeping my mouth shut, I do that when I read too (it stops saliva from dripping on the pages).
    Your attitude is noted, but this is a public forum, so ah, get stuffed, monkey-brain.
     
  9. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    16,330
    as I said, I wish you would remember that everytime you try to dress it up as a meta-narrative ....
     
  10. mustafhakofi I sa'id so Registered Senior Member

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    Rotflmao, As I've said you guys are hilarious.
    Have you changed the meaning of the word "Proof" Cause as it is now, it means.
    Do you care to enlighten us with some links, or a little of you obvious intelligence, to how it is a fundamental error, lol.
    Lol, what mistake is that, do enlighten us. ( the reason I say us is, I'm at work, you have kept us entertained here, please don't stop this is fantastic material are you a script writer for comedy show as you should be.)
    Then lol, by it's very nature it cannot be proof, see above unless you've changed the meaning of said word, and as I said please do enlighten us, as to how it is a fundamental error, lol.
    Tis your perogative. However your not everyone and some people like to look credible, but once they open their mouths they show there worth.
    What attitude is that, lol. merely stated a fact, if people who hold irrational beliefs dont want them laughed at, then they should hold irrational beliefs. Oh by the way love you name, very apt.
     
  11. arfa brane call me arf Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,832
    Exactly. I have evidence sufficient to establish that what I experience is real. If you open your eyes, you also have evidence that what you experience--vision--is real.
    Unless you want to change the meaning of the word "proof" and argue that when you see anything, proving that you are seeing means you have to describe it to someone else. Or if there isn't anyone around, you have to write it down or record it somehow then find someone else somewhere, so they can agree that you did, in fact, see something, after reading/listening to your "proof"--then they can go to where you did this and verify that what you described to them is something they can see too.

    Does that sound like a dumbass argument? It's the argument you've presented. Isn't it silly?

    The remainder of your post is just you continuing to make that mistake, all over again.

    Perhaps you should have some more coffee, mustafhakofi.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2011
  12. mustafhakofi I sa'id so Registered Senior Member

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    Lol, fantastic keep it coming. But you forgot this bit.
    And your verifiable evidence is where.
    Brillient, lol. Your a star. You'll have to stop soon, my sides are splitting. But if I saw something like what your describing I would first question myself and then I would look for more rational reasons as to why I experience such an hallucination.
    Lol, maybe, but it is what the word Proof and what the word Evidence mean, something thats verified.
    What mistake is that please elaborate.
    Wow! thats what the name means, how astute of you.
     
  13. Mind Over Matter Registered Senior Member

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    1,205
    Scientific theories never progress to the level of scientific fact until they are directly observed. That's why the "theory of gravity" remains a theory: we still haven't actually observed gravitational radiation. We've seen all sorts of interactions which we can only explain through this model, and we've explained in large part how that whole model works, we've performed some rather brilliant experiments that would seem to have only worked if we're right about the model, but we haven't actually seen our model in action, and we're not likely to see it any time soon. So the scientific theory of gravity remains a theory.

    Same goes for atomic theory (we can't see things that small!) and the germ theory of disease. And the theory of evolution -- huge swaths of biology make no sense if the basic theory of evolutionary origins of species is false (unless God specifically designed the universe to make it look and function precisely as if Darwin was right), but we can never actually observe the origin of species in practice because, hey, it's in the past, and the timescales for directly observing it in the present day (for anything larger than bacteria) are too massive for a timely demonstration.
     
  14. universaldistress Extravagantly Introverted ... Valued Senior Member

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    Wrong. The thread is about theists explaining why THEY believe without PROOF. Subtle difference there?

    Why do theists choose to believe in something unproven.

    Obviously they choose to ignore this subtle point.

    The requirement to present some proof is kind of inferred I grant you.

    It is just a chance to either a, explain why they believe without proof.
    Or b, present some proof to invalidate the premise.

    Quite simple really, for a sane person.
     
  15. universaldistress Extravagantly Introverted ... Valued Senior Member

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    We can discuss possible gods. That is conjecture. Not belief.
     
  16. universaldistress Extravagantly Introverted ... Valued Senior Member

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    Explain.
     
  17. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

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    That would be incorrect, please try to learn what a theory is.

    Observation of gravitational radiation is a requirement for the theory. Even if (when?) we do observe it there will still be a theory of gravitation.

    Wrong.

    You really don't have a clue, do you?
     
  18. universaldistress Extravagantly Introverted ... Valued Senior Member

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    Source:http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100113195603AAfmCP8


    Body:
     
  19. SciWriter Valued Senior Member

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    You guys have no narrative.

    You are seeing complicated up at this level, then ignoring the ever downward simplicity and placing the ultimate complexity sitting there. A tall tale narrative based on wishes. We've already seen nothing becoming something.
     
  20. universaldistress Extravagantly Introverted ... Valued Senior Member

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    Roll up the bunting, it's time to go home.
     
  21. Ellie Banned Banned

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    424
    I think it is supposed to be "The jig is up".
     
  22. universaldistress Extravagantly Introverted ... Valued Senior Member

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    Well pardon me from trying to move away from the term that is so entrenched in traditional minds that they can't accept or understand a new phrasing and its deeper meaning/implications.

    Typical of a theist. Just being oh so in love with the stuff that came WAY before. LOL.

    The "gig" refers to a more complex performance; given to fool the masses. A jig is more for personal pleasure (though I get that some use it as a performance). I was trying to be more general, rather than pinning down to one art form. The art of religion is truly on the ropes this thread. In fact 8, 9, 10 . . .ur out!

    Hence, 'the jig is up' meaning hopeless - and all its implications here, and the modified version I employed.

    Was it too deep for you?

    I felt that the fact theists fall back on the 'personal' excuse for justifying their beliefs suggested gig could be a better expression to infer the meaning I desired.

    And low and behold my thoughts are reinforced once again. The collective religion thing is over (destined to slowly fizzle out and fade away from the sane) because no global proof is available. Only solipsistic, internalised delusion is offered by the 'delusionists' attending this thread.

    The performance is over. The artists have taken off their masks. The illusion is fading. Once the scenery is burnt out back on the bonfires of religious tradition, and the embers have cooled, up from the ashes will rise a bird so free and perfect; its beauty to cut through the miasmal dew formed steam of false parade will inspire the burnt-out-nest dwellers to curlicue upwards on the heated thermal of the firebirds (a)wake(ning).

    Long live the Science!
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2011
  23. NMSquirrel OCD ADHD THC IMO UR12 Valued Senior Member

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    5,478
    atheist argue that there is no 'proof'..
    atheist will not accept anything as 'proof'
    theist try to show them its not about 'proof', it is about 'evidence'..
    atheist cry evidence is not proof..
    <sigh> it ain't about the 'proof'
     

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