Entropy and Causality used as a proof for God's existence

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Kython13, Mar 5, 2003.

  1. Kython13 Registered Senior Member

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    Quote from www.CARM.org

    Comments anyone?
     
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  3. spuriousmonkey Banned Banned

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    yes...

    why don't they proof god by showing god.
     
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  5. spacemanspiff czar of things Registered Senior Member

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    wow, look at those asumptions fly

    next up:

    emperor penguins migration patterns as proof of God.
     
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  7. Jaxom Tau Zero Registered Senior Member

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    Good arguments against an infinite universe in time and/or space...

    However your logic breaks down when you start to use the phrase "uncaused cause" and "supernatural". And most importantly, you make the big invalid assumption that because one option is not likely, all signs now point to God as a solution, which is hardly the case. Just because A is not equal to 1 does not mean it has to be equal to 2.
     
  8. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    There are some wonderful logic fallacies in this, which we can explore later.

    For now though it is worth noting that the calculations for entropy only make sense within a closed system. An infinite universe by definition has no boundaries so it makes no sense to consider it as a closed system. The basis of the proposed argument is invalid before it begins.
     
  9. Kython13 Registered Senior Member

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    Tissn't mine, hence the quote
     
  10. Kython13 Registered Senior Member

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    But closed or infinite, entropy must still apply. To say a law applies in one system, but not in another is saying that the law is true when I want it to be, and false when I don't want it.

    Let's see how long it take to get the right response, I already know it.
     
  11. spuriousmonkey Banned Banned

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    is it?:

    BURN, BURN, BURN THEM AT THE STAKE!
     
  12. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    Kython,

    I didn't say that entropy does not operate but that you can't say anything meanigful about an absolute state except in a closed system.

    The argument against an infinite universe is that entropy would have caused everything to have reached a steady uniform inactive state, which it clearly hasn't. This argument is only valid for closed system.

    For the proposed argument to be menaingful it must first be adjusted to prove that an infinite universe has the same properties as a closed system, and I don't see how that can be possible where there are no boundaries. This is essential for the argument to have any value.
     
  13. Kython13 Registered Senior Member

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    Hmmmmmm....
    If man was randomly created through evolution, and evolution was caused by nature, why doesn't entropy apply to man? If nature moves toward chaos, why does man (who is little more than a randomly combined chemicals according to evolution) and his civilization become more ordered (i believe the quote was "civilized intelligent maturity").

    Point is, the laws of nature apply to man if man was made by nature, so the laws of nature must also apply to anything man-made (and if they don't then why does my car keep breaking down?). So why doesn't entropy apply to civilization? Is civilization degenerating into chaos or producing more order?
     
  14. spuriousmonkey Banned Banned

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    because earth is not a closed system
     
  15. Kython13 Registered Senior Member

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    How? The earth itself is a closed system.

    On another note, is the big bang theory still being touted or is that old news?
     
  16. Kython13 Registered Senior Member

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    Because if it still applies, then it is impossible for the universe to be infinite because there is no way for an infinite amount of matter to be propeled outward, even with an infinite amount of energy.

    Infinite matter and infinite energy would cancel out, leaving a 0 distance, so nothing would happen?

    ...minds wander aimlessly...I'm bored...
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2003
  17. Raithere plagued by infinities Valued Senior Member

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    The second law of thermodynamics states that a closed system will move towards a state of thermodynamic equilibrium over time. The law of maximum entropy states that "the system will select the path or assembly of paths out of otherwise available paths that minimizes the potential or maximizes the entropy at the fastest rate given the constraints.".
    Order is therefore not only possible but will be preferred over disorder until the system reaches the point of equilibrium:

    "If the world selects those dynamics that minimize potentials at the fastest rate given the constraints, and if ordered flow is more efficient at reducing potentials than disordered flow, then the world will select order whenever it gets the chance. Theworld is in the order production business because ordered flow produces entropy faster than disordered flow (Swenson, 1988, 1991, 1992, 1995; Swenson & Turvey, 1991)"

    Note that the second law also only applies within a static or expanding closed system. If the system were to contract entropy would reverse. Thus an oscillating Universe may be infinitely old and still allow for a state of non-equilibrium.


    No, a closed system allows no energy in or out. The Earth receives energy from the Sun and also radiates a lot of energy into space... it is not a closed system.

    Actually, what has been proposed is that the energy balance in the Universe is almost exactly zero, which accounts for its duration.

    Even given your premise, you have ignored that two infinities are not necessarily equal; the infinite energy could be larger than the infinite matter; in fact it could be infinitely larger.

    ~Raithere
     
  18. Kython13 Registered Senior Member

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    How did we even get to the earth? We were taliking about man and civilization but No...............,,.....................,,..............,.....,,.......,,,.......
     
  19. Aldah Registered Senior Member

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    You're kidding right? You give the impression that you're trying to drag that topic off-topic at times!


    He was pointing out that the earth is not a closed system, so the rules with entropy are not exact, so civilization and man getting more complex isn't contradictory.

    I think of it being like this; specific beings or objects are subject to entropy... but species and civilized things are subject to evolution. Species have no physical form, nor do art concepts, so they can not degrade to chaos. People and animals do not evolve.
     
  20. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    That is not correct. Oh, and nothing ever reaches "a state of entropy". Entropy has to do with the decrease in energy available in a closed system by definition. If the system isn't closed, more energy can get in. As a general rule I believe the universe is considered a closed system.... hence the question "the great freeze" or the "big crunch" regarding the eventual demise of the universe.
    You just don't understand it, so can't properly apply it. Again, "closed system" is an integral part of the definition of entropy.
    Sure you do. How about this: That whole original post thing doesn't make sense. I beleve that is the correct response.
     
  21. Stryder Keeper of "good" ideas. Valued Senior Member

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    Here's a few points that doesn't take any of the previous threads into consideration (I didn't read 'em but might if you respond well.)

    If there was such thing as a "God", they would suffer from entropy. Afterall the overhyped status of such a position would mean that the "god" in question "controls everything". Now that is a heck of a lot of parallel processing/Multi-tasking.

    This brought me to the following:

    If there was a God, they would be a "Schizophrenic" purely because they wouldn't be of one mind juggling the balance of the whole universe.

    Not just would they be "Schizophrenic" but they might very well suffer "Parkinson's Disease", because of how paradoxes evolve and paths are decided, which would cause everything to age at different rates throughout the universe.

    Also the universe although made of "finite mass", "finite" is defined at one instance. My understanding is the universe is an "Open" system (through the use of paradoxes occuring), where as others might believe the universe to be "Flat". ("Constant Finite Mass").

    Overall conclusion:
    There is no such thing as a god, never has been, never will.
     
  22. Raithere plagued by infinities Valued Senior Member

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    I was born here; how about you?

    Seriously though, you just stated that the Earth was a closed system; it's not. A local increase in order is accompanied by a decrease elsewhere. (The Earth and the Sun, respectively) This not contradictory to the laws of thermodynamics, in fact this fits is exactly what they indicate must happen.

    The whole entropy argument is a straw-man; the only thing theists demonstrate with it is their ignorance of the laws of thermodynamics. None of the order we perceive in any way contradicts the 2nd law.

    ~Raithere
     
  23. Persol I am the great and mighty Zo. Registered Senior Member

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    Originally posted by Kython13
    Batteries run down, machines break, buildings crumble, roads decay, living things die, etc. Left to the natural state, all things would eventually cease to function.
    These things are not directly related to entropy

    1. The universe is not infinitely old because it is not in a state of entropy.

    Maybe someone could define state of entropy.

    2. Because the universe has had a beginning it is not infinite in size.

    Not necessarily... especially if you are trying to prove a God created the beginning. What stops God from creating an infinite univers.

    a. It would require an infinite amount of time to become infinite in size.

    That's assuming it didn't start as infinite.

    Since the universe had a beginning, it has not had an infinite amount of time to expand, therefore it is finite in size.

    This hasn't been shown because the premises.

    3. All events have causes.
    a. There cannot be an infinite regress of events because that would mean the universe were infinitely old.

    These 2 statments oppose each other.

    4. Since the universe is finite and had a beginning and there cannot be an infinite number of regressions of causes to bring it into existence, there must be a single uncaused cause of the universe.

    As was stated "All events have causes". So this statement would be false.

    a. A single uncaused cause of the universe must be greater in size and duration than the universe it has brought into existence.

    No reason for this

    i. Otherwise, we have the uncaused cause bringing into existence something greater than or equal to itself.

    There's a problem with this?

    ii. Therefore, there must be an uncaused cause outside the universe.

    Once again breaks the 'everything has a cause' clause.

    i. An uncaused cause would be infinite in both space and time since it is greater than which it has caused to exist.

    Once again... no reason.

    5. This uncaused cause is supernatural.
    a. By supernatural I mean it is completely 'other' than the universe is not natural to it.

    This whole argument tries to use logic, and then says that logic doesn't matter because it isn't part of the universe.

    ii. This uncaused cause is God.

    They must have skipped a step here. You could also say "This uncaused cause is pink".

    At this point I admit to making a leap of logic and assert that the supernatural, uncaused cause is the God of the Bible.

    Lol... leaps have already been made, but they had nothing to do with logic

    1. The Bible teaches that God infinite in time and scope and is wholly other than the universe of which He created.
    2. God is defined as being infinite in size, duration, and power.

    How is something outside the universe measured as being infinite in size?

    3. Therefore, the God of the Bible is the uncaused cause of the universe. "

    Allah also fits... as does the turtle that carries the universe on it's back.


    Overall a fairly weak attempt at a logical argument.
     

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