You've got to have..... faith?????

Discussion in 'Free Thoughts' started by Empty Dragon, Mar 12, 2003.

  1. Empty Dragon Empty Registered Senior Member

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    You've got to have faith?

    I do not mean faith in a god or anything of that nature.

    I meant this in a philosophical sense.

    If you cannot have faith in anything. Then how can you have faith in yourself? If you cannot have faith in yourself then how can you do anything? Anything you will do will be incomplete and you will allways be seperated from yourself if you cannot even believe in yourself. You will be beyond alone, you will be seperate form yourself. How can you search for truth if you do not have faith. With out faith you cannot even search (Not that you cannot search but you will never believe what you find), you only spin your wheels.

    With out faith are you broken?
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2003
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  3. notme2000 The Art Of Fact Registered Senior Member

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    The true peril of a true philosopher.

    But you make a good point. It was a lesson I learnt the hard way. I have faith in myself, but not in a conventional way. I do not think I will always succeed. I do not think I will always make the right decision. I do not think I will always be strong enough. I do not think everything will be ok in the end. That's not the kind of faith I have. I have faith that it's all worth it.
     
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  5. Empty Dragon Empty Registered Senior Member

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    It is one thing to be said, and another to be lived. Are you at one or do you lie? Only you can know. How far down does the rabbit whole of faith go?
     
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  7. notme2000 The Art Of Fact Registered Senior Member

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    I wish I could show you how I experience my life. Nothing in my life is that spectacular, but how I experience it... I am confident that my love for my life is pure. Doesn't mean my work is over, but I do love my life.
     
  8. Xev Registered Senior Member

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    Damn, and here I was thinking that I could move this pseudo-philosophical trip into Religion.
    Damn, damn, damn.

    Why don't you think about what you're going to ask before you ask it?

    If you don't have faith in yourself, how can you do anything? That's got to be one of the stupidest questions I've ever heard. Obviously, you do things by doing whatever it takes to get them done.
     
  9. Empty Dragon Empty Registered Senior Member

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    Xev I am not talking about such a basic concept as trusting yourself to a suffiecent point of action. I mean it to the extreme core of your being. To a point where you may truely act as yourself.
    There is a difference between confidents and ego Xev.

    To have faith in yourself, a complete sense of confidence. Un-yeilding, unbreakable, invincible. A complete animalistic sense of confidence. Many people say they have faith but what does it take to have true faith?

    What I am talking about is mental invinsibility.
     
  10. Taken Registered Senior Member

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    Faith in yourself: To free yourself totaly from percieved limitations and act in the fullness of the power that exists inside yourself. A noble quest indeed. One we hopefully will all one day realize.
     
  11. Tyler Registered Senior Member

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    Empty, you actually haven't at all defined what the hell it is you're talking about. First of all, this is starting to sound like metaphysical tripe, but I'll reserve bashing it for this reason until I'm sure.


    "If you cannot have faith in anything. Then how can you have faith in yourself?"

    1) Define the word 'faith'. My knowledge of the word says that faith can mean;
    - Belief in something without proof
    - Complete trust

    2) If your definition of 'faith' is in agreeance with the dictionary (and I say this because 90% of people who come in here with a metaphysical arguement tend to make up definitions for words) - what the hell do you mean by 'faith in myself'?? Faith in myself to do, or be, what? You're being extremely ambiguous here, and it's making discussion quite difficult.


    "Anything you will do will be incomplete and you will allways be seperated from yourself if you cannot even believe in yourself"

    1) What would you mean by "connected to yourself"
    2) What do you mean by believe in myself? Believe that I exist? Believe that I can succeed in anything? What? You gotta narrow this waaaaaaaay down.
    3) After answering these two, please prove I will be "incomplete" (and kindly define "incomplete") if I'm not "connected to myself".


    " How can you search for truth if you do not have faith."

    1) Define 'truth'.


    "With out faith are you broken?"

    Define 'broken',


    "I mean it to the extreme core of your being."

    And here's where you enter metaphysical tripe land for a second time. Come on, empty, let's see a little bit of proof. First, define "core of being", then prove that I can reach it, then explain how one reaches it, then prove that it's necessary for me to somehow be connected or have faith to this core to be successful in search...


    "To a point where you may truely act as yourself."

    What the hell does this mean? Now you sound like all you're talking about is confidence. You've left philosophy and entered pop-psychology land here.


    "A complete animalistic sense of confidence"

    I think you have a very poor conception of animal instinct. Frankly, I still have no clue what you're talking about in "faith" but if you're talking about a sense of confidence - as you mentioned here - animals really don't have anything we don't. Animals evaluate a situation and then, based on very basic instincts, determine what course of action to take. If the situation is very dangerous to them, they try and get out of it. If they didn't, they'd all die.


    "What I am talking about is mental invinsibility."

    Ohhhhh. Hard-headedness.

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    Xev, if what she's talking about is anything I've mentioned this can be moved to Human Sciences or even Free Thoughts (though Empty would probably not be fond of that). So far there's been no mention of philosophy - and if there has, what I've stated above holds - all of it is very unfounded.
     
  12. Mystech Adult Supervision Required Registered Senior Member

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    A good post, tyler, I was about to bring up a few of those points myself, how dare you beat me to it!

    Anyway, as Tyler said, Faith is defined as belief without proof, under such a system, true knowledge (that being belief with proof) can not exist.

    I, for instance havn't got a lick of faith in myself, maybe an over inflated ego, but no faith. I don't simply believe myself to be capable of anything, but I am aware of the extreems to which I can go as a reasonably inteligent and rational sentient being.

    If I simply had faith in myself in reguard to all things, I doubt I'd live very long, as I'd probably be tempted to see if I can't generate spontanious test pilot knowledge, or maybe give those boys at the local bomb squad the day off, and guess which wire to cut, on my own.
     
  13. Empty Dragon Empty Registered Senior Member

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    Faith is to completly believe in something, plain and simple. To have faith in something. What you are thinking of is blind faith Tyler.

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    To have faith in yourself. It is pretty simple to grasp.

    There are times where you have parts of yourself that are at conflict. Meaning you are divided even in yourself. Pretty much the idea is to stop fighting with yourself. So that you may be connected again and not divided and fighting each other (Allways afraid, filled with anxiety, full of doubt and self loathing). It is just more productive that way. United we stand divided we fall.

    Reality.
    Not working at its best shall we say. To be divided,To destroy the completeness of (a group of related items).To vary or disrupt the uniformity or continuity of an object.
    What Tyler you don't have a being? You exist don't you?

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    I was not trying to prove anything, I was asking if you need faith to the core of your being. I was asking to see if it could be disproven.
    If you are at war with yourself then anything you do will be half asses. The team is diveded. United we stand....Divided we fall....

    To the point where you are no longer at war with yourself. The Team is no longer divided. United we stand....Divided we fall....

    Animals really don't have anything we don't. Exactly, but we have somthing that they don't. Our human mind. It that is why we can be divided. That we can lose that Animalistic confidence. That is the point, animals just are what they are. If they where conflicted they would be lunch. We no longer need that clarity of mind to survive, so it is not such a pressing issue for survival. But it is for a state of mind and effectiveness. To search for truth you need to be sharp. The idea of animalistic confidence is to be one with yourself. To have that sense of confidence, with everything that a human is.

    Actually hard-headedness is far from invincible. It is more like having a soft head that is attaptable to changing circumstances.

     
  14. hlreed Registered Senior Member

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    When anyone says "faith" run like hell. A confidence game is coming. I am commenting on the title, not the responses.
     
  15. Empty Dragon Empty Registered Senior Member

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    That is why I brought this up. When some one says blind faith it is permisable to run like hell, but faith itself might have a use. That is the point of the thread.
     
  16. Tyler Registered Senior Member

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    "Faith is to completly believe in something, plain and simple."

    So I believe in myself to do what? You have to narrow this down, Empty. I believe in myself to be capable of anything? To be always right? To be capable of anything I set my mind to? What?


    "To have faith in yourself. It is pretty simple to grasp"

    Faith in myself to do what. You're missing an integral part of the sentance here. If you're trying to make a philosophical point (and being in Gen Phil I would hope you are), you must define what it means to have faith in ones self.
    It's like saying; "You should have trust in yourself". It means nothing. It's a meaningless sentance. I should have trust in myself.....
    If you mean all of what I have said above you must say that, otherwise, as I said, your statement is far, far too ambiguous.


    "Pretty much the idea is to stop fighting with yourself. So that you may be connected again and not divided and fighting each other (Allways afraid, filled with anxiety, full of doubt and self loathing). It is just more productive that way"

    I respectfully disagree in full. Perhaps your experiences are different, but I find debate and contrasting views to be how we've gotten so far in terms of knowledge in the first place. If it takes intellectual struggle between people to advance knowledge (and I do dearly hope you won't disagree with me on this. I don't wish to go into detail for such a given point, but I will if it's necessary), why would you think any differently about humans?
    I realize that arguement from experience here isn't exactly scientific, but in my own ventures into philosophy I would surely tell you that if I had never doubted my beliefs and had internal debate I would never have arrived at the level of understanding I have now.


    "Reality"

    Almost everything you've said thusfar has been rather metaphysical, so I would like to ask if you're talking about the scientific analyzing of the world or about some higher, trancendental reality.


    "Not working at its best shall we say"

    And then define "working at it's best". I know you're probably thinking I'm asking useless questions but most philosophical texts I've read have devoted chapters to these questions.


    "To vary or disrupt the uniformity or continuity of an object."

    Now that's a good definition. Can you prove that humans are working their best when they don't question themselves? Something tells me that's a more difficult concept.


    "What Tyler you don't have a being? You exist don't you?"

    What do you mean by being? My mind? Then why don't you say 'mind'? In philosophy, the word 'being' has been used to mean something much more abstract than mind.


    "I was asking to see if it could be disproven."

    Something needs to be proven to be accepted. That's the way logic works. The onus is on you.


    "That is the point, animals just are what they are. If they where conflicted they would be lunch"

    Not to be picky - but animals are often divided. Do you have a pet dog? My german sheppard understands the commands "sit" and "stay". It, obviously, believes it will get a reward if I tell it to sit or stay and it does so. If I put a steak on a plate 10 feet away and tell it to sit and stay it has great trouble deciding what to do.

    At the moment, Empty, I have two contrasting understandings of what you're talking about in terms of faith. Perhaps you can enlighten me as to which one you're talking about.

    1) To be sure of one's capabilities and rational and logical skills.
    2) To be sure of one's beliefs.

    The first option does not, in the least, eliminate "war" within ones self. The second one does. I am quite sure of the extent of my logical processing abilities - yet I am constantly in a struggle about my personal beliefs and philosophies.


    Mystech:
    "A good post, tyler, I was about to bring up a few of those points myself, how dare you beat me to it!"

    Squashing the metaphysicians wherever we go, haha! Thanks mystech.


    "I don't simply believe myself to be capable of anything, but I am aware of the extreems to which I can go as a reasonably inteligent and rational sentient being"

    Bingo. There is a difference between this ambiguous 'faith' and being aware of one's capabilities.
     
  17. spookz Banned Banned

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    *you aint squashed nothing dear boy

    *admitting stupidity mystech?

    *faith in oneself will take you further than constructing artificial limitations to ones capabilities

    i recommend attending a seminar with a decent motivational speaker

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  18. Empty Dragon Empty Registered Senior Member

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    Thinking you have the potential to something is very different from acctually being able to do it. Simply thinking you can is not enough, you have to feel it. If you think it, you will not have the same will to do so unless your heart is in it. There are irrational fears and doubts that will plague a person. But that is just it they are irrational. What about the fear of letting go, fear of love, fear of conentment, fear of trying...... Compare those feelings to a child grabbing the door saying "I don't want to go to school" It is the childs first day, and he has no reason to be afraid. He is only afraid because it is the unknown. Or when someone is depressed. Those are all events where one is divide.

    Faith is a complete acceptance. If you completly accept yourself then it will reflect on your external world as well. Animals have that state of being. They just are. So the dog is making a decision (Your dog probably knows what happends if he disobeys as well). It must be made, that is part of being. The human on the other hand may think "This isn't fair I want it right now, why do I have to do this...(And so on)". The Dog is just deciding.

    Like I just said there are decisions that need to be made, both internal and external. But hey that is life. It is just how you meet those questions. United we stand divided we fall...

    Tyler let me assure you there is no metaphysics in this debate at all. Stop using that as a crutch. You bring up intersting points, that I do contemplate. So please mind your manner and let us do this like civil people.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2003
  19. Tyler Registered Senior Member

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    4,888
    Empty, I'm really going to have to ask you again what you mean exactly by having faith in oneself. I still have two ideas of what you mean, and now I'm even more unsure:

    1) To be sure of one's capabilities and rational and logical skills.
    2) To be sure of one's beliefs

    Anyway...

    "Simply thinking you can is not enough, you have to feel it."

    This is metaphysics. That or what you mean to say is you have to have an instinctual mindset - and frankly, that's what I think you're saying (though I could easily be wrong).


    "There are un-rational fears and doubts that will plague a person. But that is just it they are irrational"

    What irrational fears?


    "What about the fear of letting go, fear of love, fear of conentment, fear of trying"

    1) Fear of letting go can be logical. Letting go can be painful and harmful. Most people do not desire pain or harm. Thus it would be logical to fear letting go.
    2) Fear of commitment can be logical. Humans fear the unknown because the unknown can be painful and harmful. Fear of commitment may also come from poor past experiences, in which case a person is trying to avoid similar pain. (N.B. - when I say 'logical' here what I mean to say is logical based off of the instincts. I feel this is a fine practice seeing as, I think, you're arguing about instincts here)
    3) I have never met someone who's afraid of trying. Failing, maybe.


    "He is only afraid because it is the unknown"

    Almost all animals I can think of with a relatively high intelligence fear the unknown. It's a safety precaution encoded in us.


    "The human on the other hand may think "This isn't fair I want it right now, why do I have to do this...(And so on)". The Dog is just deciding"

    I know exactly what you're saying - but you've not proved any difference between what I'm doing and what my dog is doing. You've basically said; "on the one hand you have to think about your decision, where as your dog just decides". Well, no, my dog considers both options. Chimps and dolphins and the sorts do the same thing.


    "It is just how you meet those questions. United we stand divided we fall.."

    Reciting a military/government maxim a hundred times does not prove anything, Empty.

    If your idea is to be continued to it's ends, you have basically stated that we should not debate within ourselves about anything. That halts all learning, in my opinion.


    "Stop using that as a crutch"

    It's not a crutch. I've presented two real options; either you're talking about instincts and how we should be 100% sure of everything we do or you're talking about a metaphysical "faith" concept (or I still don't understand a word you're saying). If it's the metaphysical answer, this is not a logic. If it's the instinct one, well, I think I just made clear my opinion of that.
     
  20. Empty Dragon Empty Registered Senior Member

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    Simply to have complete trust in something.

    No it is not. There is no metaphysics involved in this conversation. If you find them it is because you are putting them there.

    Simply thinking you can is not enough, you have to feel it.

    As I see it there are two minds in a human.


    1)Primative Mind (Instincts)
    2)Human Mind (Evolved mind)

    Lets divide the human mind into three parts.

    1) The Heart Mind (Emotions)
    2) The Intellectual mind (Logic)
    3) The Wisdom Mind (Understanding)

    What is Emotion with out logic? What is logic with out Understanding? What is Understanding with out heart?

    There is no logical reason why I can't do this. But because it is only logic there is no reason to go through with it. With out a reason there is no will. With out a want there can be know will. With out will to drive logic how can understanding be obtained?

    With out heart there is no will.

    If a human can simply be, then all three minds effortlessly work together.

    If a human is divided the minds will not work together.

    Example: A man is torn by his heart. He has lost a loved one, to a car crash. It was an accident, it was know ones fault. But his heart wants revenge. So he thinks of a way to kill the other driver (Who survived and he feels is responsible). He has the will. so he plans on going through with it. Then he realizes that killing the other driver will not lesson the pain, if will only add another weight on his heart. So he learns to accept his loved ones passing.

    If he did kill the man, it is not like he would go back to his day to day life satisfied. He is still missing the one he loves, that pain will not leave him by revenge. If he understands the pain then he knows there is only one(We'll suicide as well but that is another story)way to truely deal with it. That is to accept it and move on. Granted there is a whole that may never be filled but that is life.

    I do not believe in any cosmic meaning. We are just hear, a product of this condition and that condition. Untill the snow ball rolling down the hill is us. We have the conscious human mind, and so there fore we can consciously change events. It is not just a matter of cause and affect instincts. We get to deside how we act.

    No. The dog accepts that he must make a choice, and makes it. The human laments the fact that he must make a choice.

    Logical but not wise. Above all else the wisdom should perside. Because the wisdom understands that you don't have a choice, and the sooner that is accepted the sooner the fear will leave.
    Fear is pain and harm, and most people do not desire pain and harm. The Wisdom understands that if it does not let go of the fear then it will only bring more harm in the end.

    You haven't met many people then.

    Though I think it is acceptable to be cautious of the unknown, but not afraid.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2003
  21. Tyler Registered Senior Member

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    4,888
    Shite, Empty. Here I thought we would actually be able to talk. From your last post I thought you were starting to make sense and I was starting to understand your point. But you just went and completely lost it for me.


    "Simply to have complete trust in something"

    What you don't understand is that the above sentance can mean a million and half things. You have not defined which you mean. I even gave you numbers. Could it get any simpler?


    "Simply thinking you can is not enough, you have to feel it."

    What the hell do you mean by 'feel'? Do you mean an instinctual drive? If so, please use actual terms. Saying "you have to feel it" makes you sound like one of those motivational speakers selling a tape on an infomercial at 3 in the morning. And it means nothing. It's a hugely ambiguous term.


    "As I see it there are two minds in a human.

    1)Primative Mind (Instincts)
    2)Human Mind (Evolved mind)"

    Prove it using empirical methods and logic.


    "Lets divide the human mind into three parts.

    1) The Heart Mind (Emotions)
    2) The Intellectual mind (Logic)
    3) The Wisdom Mind (Understanding)"

    Let's not. Before we do it let's prove that we can do this. And, even if we are going to do this, no using the word "Heart Mind". The two have nothing in common. The heart pumps blood.
    And furthermore, now you are talking about complete speculation. Why in god's name are you seperating "understanding" and logic? There's absolutely no reason to. To "understand" means to comprehend and perceive. Now, granted, I don't know the human brain inside out - but I'm pretty fucking sure that logic is the biggest tool used in comprehending something.

    Now your example is little more discussable if you take out the Heart, Intellect and Wisdom seperation (which you've made without proving). It appears that what you're saying here is that the different desires of the human mind must work out a compromise to meet the best ends. However, this goes against the point you tried to make in the beginning. In your example the different desires and logical processes of the man struggled and came to a decision which was most beneficial. But this only came because he debated within himself. And yet earlier you said..
    "Because the wisdom understands that you don't have a choice, and the sooner that is accepted the sooner the fear will leave"

    You don't have a choice in what? Can you prove that "wisdom understands" (this is a rather abstract concept, eh? I won't float the metaphysic word around here, but you're taking great leaps of faith) that you don't have a choice?


    "Fear is pain and harm, and most people do not desire pain and harm"

    Fear is pain and harm? Sorry, that's a whole new aspect that you're also going to have to prove. I'm afraid of jumping out of a plane without a parachute. Does that cause me pain and harm? Fuck no. Would jumping out of the plane? Course.


    Empty, I know you think what you're saying is logical. But you've made a million and one claims in here and I can't see one of them founded. I mean, come on, you said "let's say"!! In philosophy, you have to prove everything you say. Everything that is not a tautology must be proven. So, you have much to write before you can consider this logic.
     
  22. Mystech Adult Supervision Required Registered Senior Member

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    Ok, if this is your definition of "Faith" what then would be your definition of "Blind faith". If just regular "Faith" is enough to put yourself beyond questioning, and above second guessing, then how is that definition not "blind" as it were, to the possibility of fallibility, and just flat out being wrong?

    I take it you haven't really thought this out very much. . . am I to take it that you just had faith in the fact that you had everything pieced together already?
     
  23. Mystech Adult Supervision Required Registered Senior Member

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    Spookz, as always I find your childish posts to be a sickly blend of both amusement, and utter disgust. I've refrained from pointing this out for a while, but it does seem that you have some sort of grudge against me, as lately whenever you reply to any thread I'm involved in it tends to be some quick little two line jab, which generally amounts to "I'm right, and you're a doody head!" and you don't even bother, then to go into discussing the topic any more than asserting that your own opinion is the correct one (if you even establish what it is that your opinion is, which you failed to do here, though we can assume you are taking the only opposing stance that has been set out, at the moment).

    Rather than let you bait me into some sort of flame war, I'm just going to give you notice that after this post, until such a time, as you can begin to post again in a more civil and intelligent manner, I'm just going to dismiss everything you say with a wave of my hand, and no longer even bother to post a word in reply to your taunts.
     

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