LA Arsonist, Let Germany Handle Him

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by steampunk, Jan 4, 2012.

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Send the LA Arsonist Back To Germany?

Poll closed Apr 3, 2012.
  1. Yes

    1 vote(s)
    20.0%
  2. No

    4 vote(s)
    80.0%
  1. steampunk Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    278
    He has already cost California an early estimate of two million. Putting him away for these charges will cost California tax payers over time another million. Some may want punishment, but is this the time to make a point in an ailing economy? The Scandinavian's used to expel their criminals in the days of old. I say make him an outlander, send him back to Germany with his mother and her fake boobs she fraudulanly aquired. We'll be better of doing that than punishing the tax payers further.
     
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  3. Telemachus Rex Protesting Mod Stupidity Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    249
    Your post makes sense on its face, but (A) the State of California can't order his deportation (even if he's here illegally, which I'm not sure he is or not, they'd have to ask the feds to do it) and (B) Germany would have no jurisdiction over crimes committed in the U.S., so he'd be off scott free. Plus, even if Germany had jurisdiction, all the evidence is here, so the trial would be deemed unfair to him under German law (unless his lawyers waive the objection to the forum).

    If the suggestion is to change the laws of Germany so that they do have jurisdiction and the laws of the U.S. so that States can compel deportation of criminals who are foreign nationals, then turn him over for prosecution in Germany, then I have no objection per se.

    Otherwise, if you let his go free in Germany, then you are signaling to foreigners "Come to California, you are not required to observe our laws!" Which may be part of your plan, as California might not regret that. Think of the tourist trade.
     
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  5. steampunk Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    278
    I see the problem you pose. Problems shouldn't force us to do something that is obviously unreasonable. If the right choices are not made quickly things may get so far out of hand, the smart thing cant be done later.

    First, he is German citizen, so this brings liability to Germany for his actions. Atleast, in terms of the cost of rehabilitation. There are probably a dozen reasonable ways to handle it. Charging California further is not.

    We could make a deal with Germany to agree upon a fair hearing and possible trial. If found guilty, Germany would take him from there be responsible for rehab.

    If they choose not be resposible, they need to be sued for the cost of his imprisonment here.

    I dont think Germany would be unreasonable. They do set a successfull example on how to conduct themselves.

    Even if we just deported him and Germany felt no threat from him, we'd be free of him. Do you imply all the mentally ill in Germany would be lining up to perform their nutty acts of terror because they'll only be put on the ship of fools back to Germany? This is very rare of a human and obviously is mental illness. Germany did initiate his mothers arrest and would feel some need to make sure he gets some help.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2012
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  7. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,285
    It may not cost as much as we think? I say we deal with him - we're not THAT broke.
     
  8. steampunk Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    278
    Energy is limited, people in California already go without. The state went bankrupt. A million dollars can go along way. Perhaps a cancer patient could be denied their treatments, so we could satisfy our sadist lust to be the ones to lash him.

    Germany would take him and he would be off our hands. We may not be broke, but foolish spending will break you if you dont mend your reasoning.
     
  9. Telemachus Rex Protesting Mod Stupidity Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    249
    It's not really that unreasonable to try him in the place where his crimes occurred.

    Actually, Germany law (like U.S. law) would say that Germany can't try him for crimes not committed in another country. Likewise, if I go to Amsterdam and smoke pot, the authorities in the U.S. can't try me for that, even though I am a U.S. citizen and it violated U.S. law (or would have if U.S. law applied in Amsterdam).

    The only limited exceptions are usually crimes committed in international waters or violations of international law (though them, only to the extent the home country recognizes that law).

    I can imagine a treaty obligation that requires Germany to try him for those crimes, on the grounds you name (that it's an unfair expense), but only if the U.S. agrees to try Americans who commit crimes overseas or in this case in Germany (we don't).

    The bigger problem would be that Germany recognizes a right to due process, which includes a right to call witnesses, and a German court can't compel U.S. witnesses (including the police) to fly to Germany to testify, or compel U.S. police forces to to release documents. If the U.S. hides documents to make conviction more likely (and that sort prosecutorial misconduct is all too common, unfortunately, even in the U.S. where there are consequences for it if people get caught), a German court can't punish U.S. police or district attorneys.

    Unless due process doesn't apply (and its a "right" in both Germany and the U.S.) for some reason, it's hard for me to imagine a German judge not dismissing the case.

    I think the fix you are looking for, one that would be an easy one, is to bill the German government for the costs of trying and incarcerating him (assuming he's convicted). You'd still need the U.S. to negotiate that treaty with Germany, but I suspect it's doable. Two minor problems are that (i) the U.S. would need to figure how to pass that cost on to the States (so Cali can pay foreign governments for all the trials and punishments of criminals that happen to be California residents and (ii) I suspect the U.S. as a whole would have to pay more money to Germany, on average, than Germany would have to pay to the U.S. That's just a guess though. I suppose a third problem would be that you couldn't have such a treaty with many nations. One can imagine certain parties in places like like Saudi Arabia, China or Russia taking some glee at trying Americans for breaching their laws, then sending a bill to the U.S. ambassador.

    We might make money if we had sch an arrangement with Mexico. Hard to say given that the crime rates for illegal immigrants are so low, but there are enough of them that I suspect that would be a net gain.

    I actually didn't realize the man was mentally ill...which makes it all the more likely that a German court would reach an outcome Americans would dislike.

    On balance, I'd look to the cost shifting approach before a transfer of the case. The latter just seems impractical to me.
     
  10. steampunk Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    278
    Nevermind court costs, not enough Germans here breaking the law to justify that. Its the years of institutionalization thats the expensive part. Our prison system is outrageous and that may not be reasonable to Germany to charge, they have less expensive and more sustainable policy. I say we put him through system and give him to Germany if guilty or insane. Our courts are public, so they will be able to determine if improper things were done. The reasonable thing is to separate ourselves from the threat. Incarciration or deportation will both do that, but one has an outrageous expense, the other doesn't. Why incure unnessessary expense?
     
  11. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,285
    He should be tried here - just make it speedy and push it through. I think you'd even get CA lawyers to do it for free.
     
  12. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    33,264
  13. Telemachus Rex Protesting Mod Stupidity Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    249

    Mostly because Germany would not punish him for a crime committed here if he were deported. You would need to work out a hypothetical deal with Germany, and changes in the laws of both Germany and the U.S. to reach a different result than that. It's certainly not worth the cost of even a trial/*, if we immediately deport him and Germany ignores the results of the trial (as they would).

    -------
    /* Which can cost the state a hundred thousand dollars and up for anything high profile where experts are needed...sometimes they cost millions when they get complicated...and this is a case where expert psychological testimony will be needed, and it ain't cheap.
    -------

    On the plus side, Germany doesn't get to ship problem Americans arrested in Germany back to us either, so it sort of balances out.
     
  14. steampunk Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    278
    I'm still sticking to my guns that the primary goal is not to charge Americans more than we need to for this situation. I think it's possible to do that in a reasonable way.

    I say we do the court thing (very fast) like Michael said, but determine it's end as insanity. It's obviously insane what he did. The evidence and circumstance looks pretty cut and dried that this is the guy who started the fires. I don't think it matters that Germany institutionalises him or lets him free. Deportation eliminates his threat to us and absolves us of any further financial responsibility.

    There may be an argument that this encourages people to come and commit crimes in our country, but this would only apply to cases of insanity. Not say a bank robber or even a crime of passion.

    The real goal is to protect ourselves and deporting an expensive psychotic foreigner will achieve that.

    This is where opinions and facts butt heads. Opinions are a luxury we don't have today's America. Its time to stop saying, "That makes make sense, why would we do that?"

    Get his ass out of here.
     
  15. steampunk Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    278
    http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-hollywood-arsons-20120105,0,5899498.story

    Apparently, there was an unsolved arson in Germany right near where he lived. They are more than happy about putting him away for life. Seems as the facts unroll further, deporting is the better decision for the greater good in the situation. Again, what sense is it to spend it on punishing him when we could deport him and spend it something beneficial?
     
  16. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    33,264
    He should be tried in America first, sentenced and sent to prison if so ordered and after he served his time in America then send him back to Germany. I'd think that there could be a problem if you just sent him back to stand trial there, he could be found not guilty and get off without any prison time. I don't think that is a very good way of handling Americas problems.
     
  17. Telemachus Rex Protesting Mod Stupidity Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    249
    We'll see. It sounds more likely they would try to "treat" him, not punish him, and that assumes they can pin the local arson on him. That he's been accused of arson in the U.S. won't even be admissible in his trial in Germany.

    Do you support the deportation of all foreign defendants? It seems like perhaps that should be the default (at least in California).
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2012
  18. adoucette Caca Occurs Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,829
    Not exactly.

    And besides, a simple arson charge in Germany that did $50k in damage would never result in a lifetime sentence even assuming they can get a conviction (not a slam dunk or there would be charges filed)

    It's not just an issue of punishment, it's the issue of not letting this nut-case out to once again terrorize innocent people by his random acts of hatred. Here or in Germany.

    California at the current time is the only legal entity that has the means and the reason to do so.
     
  19. steampunk Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    278
    When I said "They are more than happy about putting him away for life", I meant California. I wasn't very clear.

    I'm not concerned with Germany punishing him anyway, because he's insane. I'm sick of seeing America go broke, and still have this attitude we need to democratise the Middle East with trillion dollar wars. It's this same attitude that wants to keep Harry B. in prison for life, instead of spend that million plus on debts on American needs.

    I think the need to keep him here is more about people controlling people and things, rather than making sense and doing what is practical. We're going broke with this control attitude. We don't need control, we need to budget, and that takes sensible policy. Our policy should be to send the psychotically dangerous back home.

    If Germany doesn't look out for it's citizens, then that is Germany's responsibility. California has a debt, America has a debt, we don't need other peoples responsibilities especially when we aren't taking on our own. Although, I think now it's out, Chechnya is where he is from.

    But, I'm sure the attitude that got us is such a horrible state financially will continue, because that's the attitude that is in control of this situation.
     
  20. steampunk Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    278
    Only the psychotically dangerous who will be too expensive to rehabilitate. Those who for instance rob banks, no. They can be rehabilitated for a reasonable price. Sending them back where they will not be reprimanded will give them an incentive to commit crime here. Insanity is a special case.

    Although, prison should not cost tax payers money. We got it all wrong. There are ways of reform to make a prison self-supporting, and actually improve the lives of prisoners, preparing them better for release. But that's another thread.
     
  21. adoucette Caca Occurs Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,829
    Except if we don't try and convict him and just send him back to Germany, there is no assurance that the Germans can convict him of anything. Which means he would be free to travel.

    And that would mean he could end up back here.

    And the next time it might not be arson of cars, but of homes with people in them.

    He's deranged and needs to be prevented from harming society.

    The cost of doing so is a rather minor consideration in the scheme of things.
     
  22. keith1 Guest

    His technique was unstoppable. Copy-cats will burn Southern California to the ground this summer, if they don't ban these timed charcoal-lighting fuses.
     
  23. adoucette Caca Occurs Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,829
    Timed charcoal lighting fuses?

    What are they and were they what were used?
     

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