If they can install a city sewer system, they can provide a minimal storm cellar for every house in a neighborhood - economically, at the same time. Of course it's expensive to retrofit now, but a sane building code in the first place would bring in economies of scale and efficient technology (dynamite, say) during the building of these subdivisions by the large contractors that built them, as well as removing the competitive disadvantage, and roll it into the price of the house. Oklahomans don't do stuff like that for the same reasons Texans don't establish and enforce adequate fire codes in ammonium nitrate fertilizer plants or mandate that schools be located far away. At least the residents of Moore can relax in the knowledge that the damage their chosen politicians did to FEMA and the like has been at least somewhat repaired, and these agencies are almost back to the shape they was in in 1999 when the last big one rolled through. They won't be maligned and mistreated like the black people were in Katrina - at their behest.
"There's a tornado warning and the rain is pouring down! Quick, into the sewer!" I see some potential drawbacks to such a plan.
I know that's probably a joke, but I'm a bit gunshy around here: we're talking about a minimal storm cellar, dug at the same time and with the same tech as whatever they used to dig the city sewer connections. It's the sort of thing you get with government by grownups.
Unfortunately not a joke: =========== Several children drowned in basement as tornado leveled Okla. school as officials continue recovery efforts By DAVID K. LI Last Updated: 4:32 PM, May 21, 2013 Posted: 2:13 PM, May 21, 2013 AP Some of the Oklahoma tornado’s youngest victims died doing exactly what they were told to do — take shelter in the basement. Tragically, that’s where at least seven Plaza Towers Elementary School died during yesterday’s killer storm that leveled much of Moore, Okla., officials said. "My understanding, this school ... Plaza Towers, they had a basement,” Lt. Gov. Todd Lamb told CNN today. “Quite frankly, don't mean to be graphic, but that's why some of the children drowned, because they were in the basement area.” =========== I suspect grownups would not require you put in a storm shelter that has a good chance of killing you if a storm hits. While it definitely makes sense to plan for tornado protection, requiring people to have subterranean shelters is not a good way to do it IMO. "First do no harm" is a good rule for both doctors and governments.
Ok, you don't know what a storm cellar is, no problem - it's a small underground room traditionally dug to one side of the house (not part of the basement or otherwise under the house), deep enough to avoid roof leakage or removal, with its own door that opens into a sort of manhole and breaks sideways into a space big enough to fit everybody in for an hour or so. Storm cellars don't fill with water more than about ankle deep (and that only if poorly designed) - they aren't drains, they aren't downhill watersheds from everywhere with water funneling into them from huge collapsed roofs and parking lots etc. Their entrance is usually raised on a rim or small berm like an anthill, solidly lidded at a slight angle, and just big enough. People have been sheltering in storm cellars in Oklahoma for a hundred and fifty years now, there's nothing mysterious about them. People used to make them bigger than necessary and use them as root cellars (and vice versa) - they don't flood unless the landscape floods, which is not a tornado problem in Oklahoma. They won't save a school full of kids, but they will save a house full of people. And they don't cost any eight thousand dollars to put in if you do it in concert with the whole subdivision building operation. They're in bedrock? Great - no need for concrete and roofbeams. Sorry to be uncharitable and callous in the face of tragedy, but I'm just completely fed up with the politics of Oklahoma and the excuses being made for them. I damn well remember what that population of citizens and their elected reps said about the people trapped in New Orleans after Katrina - the people they'd screwed over by crippling FEMA and voting in their swaggering Texan hero. I'd be sorely tempted to limit my FEMA response to this tornado to what the people in New Orleans got - load a few trucks with ice and send them to Ohio, maybe.
Well it’s kind of hypocritical that Oklahoma senators (Republican) who voted against Hurricane Sandy relief assistance for New Jersey and New York, but now when the shoe is on the other foot and their state suffers a natural disaster, these very same Republicans cannot get to the FEMA relief teat fast enough. It’s funny how that works. http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/05/21/us-usa-tornadoes-congress-idUSBRE94K18Z20130521
No one is blaming the victims. I am simply querying how and why in areas where tornadoes are common, that building regulations do not factor in for cellars or storm shelter's. For example, in Darwin Australia, an area prone to cyclones, if you build a house, it has to withstand cyclonic winds. And this was especially the case after Cyclone Tracy in the 70's wiped out all of Darwin. At the very least, towns should have numerous public shelters for people to go to and that can be reached quickly and safely. Schools should definitely have shelters. And perhaps have drills once or twice a year whereby it becomes something that is learned as well. Like they have in Japan when it comes to earthquakes and tsunami's. This isn't the first time they have had a tornado that wiped out half the town. Hindsight is everything and part of the rebuilding process by the Government should involve some forms of safe storm shelters for the townsfolk.
Look in your own backyard. City of Minneapolis does not require basements as of 2005, which means Hennepin county doesnt require basements. My county doesnt require basements. You do remember a tornado went through N. Minneapolis just a couple years ago right? http://www.kare11.com/news/article/...ter-north-Mpls-tornado-donations-still-needed I remember driving around looking at the damage from this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1965_Twin_Cities_tornado_outbreak So while you scoff at the imagined insanity of people south of you, remember that in your own backyard we dont stand so far apart in our reality.
Unfortunately not true, as demonstrated by that story. Perhaps - and an adult would weigh how many people would be killed in the small percentage of poorly designed storm cellars vs the people who would be saved by well designed ones. You have never worked with bedrock, then. It is not a matter of just taking a chisel and knocking out a hole. Bedrock near foundations are project-stopping nightmares that often require either expensive blasting or relocation of the project.
Your posted story does not mention any storm cellars at all, let alone any filling with water for some odd reason. I tried to describe a storm cellar to you, apparently I failed - perhaps you could simply take the word of someone who has sheltered in one, grown up in tornado country? No one is going to drown in a storm cellar. That is not the problem with them. Even a poorly designed storm cellar is not going to drown anyone unless some river floods into its lousy location or something - even if you left the door off and let it rain straight in, it wouldn't fill more than a couple of inches. Plus, they are easy to get out of - in the heavy rain after the tornado has passed, if it's seeping in somehow and your shoes are getting wet, you can leave any time you want to. That's why you put them in your subdivision by code, when you're doing the rest of the bedrock hacking for sewers etc., instead of leaving them to the precrippled and expensive "choice" of the homebuyer later. It's called foresight, prudence, care, attention, governance - - adulthood. 1) Minnesota is not nearly the tornado bullseye the region around Norman, Oklahoma, is. 2) I will bet you money there isn't a single entire block of any town in Minnesota in which less than half the houses have any kind of cellar or ground protected storm shelter. We don't need to have codes for that because they get put in anyway - they are easily dug here, and handy for furnaces and root cellars and such. Plus you have to go down four or five feet with the foundation to get below frost line here, so much of the expense of digging is sunk cost regardless. You don't need codes for what almost everybody does anyway. We have codes for roof insulation and foundation depth and the like they probably don't have or need in Oklahoma, no? Building codes are local government. 3) Basements aren't storm cellars, storm cellars aren't basements, necessarily.
That is a good question Bells. I live in Kansas, 168 miles from Moore, Oklahoma. Having grown up in Tornado Ally and on a farm and having had a tornado demolish one of our buildings; I am very familiar with tornados and storm cellars. I cannot imagine living in this area without a storm cellar or basement. Attached is an article which blames the clay soils in Oklahoma for the lack of basements and storm shelters in Oklahoma. But here in Kansas, a little over a hundred miles away, we have the same soils. I had a well drilled on my property last year and we went through a lot of clay. But even with our clay soils, basements are very common here in Kansas. And our basements don’t leak or subside as claimed in the article. I think the reason Oklahoma lacks basements and storm cellars is more political and economic than anything to do with clay soils. In Kansas I have seen developments, like mobile home parks, where individual residents do not have basements. But these developments have a community storm shelter where area residents can take refuge in the event of violent weather. I don’t see why Oklahoma shouldn’t have something similar. There is no good reason to not have a storm shelter if you live in tornado country. You don’t need a “safe room” but if you live in Tornado Ally you do need a storm shelter or a basement. http://openchannel.nbcnews.com/_new...nt-there-more-storm-shelters-in-oklahoma?lite P/s Having grown up in rural Kansas where storm cellars are quite common and having had one while growing up, they don’t leak. They are cool dry places which are used to store foods stuffs. That is why they call them “cellars”.
Sorta contradicting yourself there. But, yes, in some cases people are going to drown. No, adults make their own decisions about storm shelters, and allow others to do the same. Children are told what to do by their parents.
No, I'm correcting you. No, they aren't. Give it up. You didn't know what a storm cellar was, and you made a perfectly understandable mistake confusing the school basement with one, but that is past now. Not in tornado alley, they don't. Adults do politics. That's their job. They put up stoplights at dangerous intersections and tell everyone when they can drive and when they can't, they require electrical wiring to be up to what an informed and prudent person would set as standard so the unwary are not fried in their beds by the unscrupulous, and they require contractors designing subdivisions to build to an adequate weather standard for local circumstances if they want to sell houses to young folks starting families. Or, as in Oklahoma, they don't do their job as adults. And they inflict that childish political irresponsibility on the rest of us, in invective and hazard and expense and corruption, in Inhofe dumbassery and W/Cheney incompetence and Enron corruption and Big Oil racketeering and an endless series of senseless wars. And we are entitled to complain, OK?
From what you said, no one will drown in a storm cellar. Then you gave a case where they might drown. So which is it? No, that's one job that both adults and children have. (And many adults who act like children, sadly.) Again, that is a parent telling a child what to do. Sometimes you need such regulation because there are some very stupid people out there who might as well be children. But to claim that is "adult behavior" is absurd. Adults decide what precautions to take. Children are told what precautions they must take by their parents. You sure are! Aren't you glad there's not some government "adult" telling you that you need to stop, because it's not good for you?
Two people died in Minneapolis 2011 tornado. 3700 homes damaged. EF 2. And Minneapolis has no law requiring basements. Thats just the way it is in your back yard. Another way to view it, in spite of a lack of storm cellars/basements, a huge tornado (EF5) tore a path a mile wide and 20 miles long through a city with a population of 56,000 and only 24 deaths, including 7 who tragically died from drowning in a basement. Ironically, the people who did not go into the basement (approx 35) survived. at least two of the people died on the freeway. 4 died in a interior freezer at a 7-11. You assume massive coverage of home owner storm shelters would have changed these numbers greatly. At least 1/2 of the people were not at home when trapped by a very rare tornado event. Because insane minnesotans (those with no basement) are not quite as insane as Oklahoman's with no basement. Doesnt matter what kind of money you offer, that is irrelevant to the point made. Tornados hit MN, the EF 5 is possible, people do die here from tornados and there is no requirement for basement/storm cellar in Minneapolis (which was hit in 65 and 2011 in the links I have provided). Oklahoma gets a LOT of tornados, but statistically the EF5 is .2% of all tornados in OK. But you want to spend a billion dollars of other peoples money. 46 inches is the depth MN (state of) building codes require. 18 inches in OK. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storm_cellar There is no law anywhere in MN that I am aware of requiring a storm cellar in lieu of a basement.
There is no case in the region at issue in which a code storm cellar would drown anyone. The situation I gave (river flooding) was a joke hypothetical - an attempt to illustrate the absurdity of your objection to storm cellars for tornado shelter. There's a reason one gets gun shy around here. Adults worthy of the term then take those precautions. That includes building codes and other grownup political efforts. Children are not expected to govern themselves as a community - by definition, actually. Adults who do not govern themselves as a community are acting like children. [quote='billvon"] Again, that is a parent telling a child what to do. - - - Aren't you glad there's not some government "adult" telling you [/quote] Regarding one's local democratic political system and its agreed community rules for everyone's mutual benefit as some kind of imposed parental authority is juvenile. And sometimes there are general contractors in competition with each other who will cut corners to save money and put entire communities of people at risk. Hardin's Tragedy of the Commons. Adults handle such situations by political agreement and regulation. There are very few Minnesotans anywhere in the State without close and easy access to storm shelters. There are entire subdivisions in OK tornado alley without storm shelters. So they were lucky, very very lucky - that thing hits at night in a place so poorly prepared, what would you estimate for death toll? If those kids had been home in those houses? And why do you keep repeating stuff about that school basement? The school wasn't capable of completely sheltering its entire student body from a big tornado (note they evacuated many children in advance, recognizing the situation), but I'm not ragging on anyone for that - that's hard to build, and if it turns out we have entered a new world of frequent class 5 (which is possible, Oklahoma Congressman Inhofe's scientific acumen notwithstanding) I imagine even Oklahomans would make some adjustments in their children's schoolbuildings. But it's a bit late for the subdivisions. Retrofitting them would (will?) cost a fortune. Why are you banging on about unnecessary and redundant building codes for other places than tornado alley? They have the building codes in Minneapolis that they need, and the basements they need. Places that don't have what they need have screwed up for some reason.
Define very few. I have a basement totally underground without even a walk out. But something like an f5 hits me that wont be enough. Hell an f3 hits me and the place is gone (hugo tornado was F3). I am 7 miles from the nearest official 'storm shelter' which in reality isnt much different than the wiped out school with the basement. And there are plenty of subdivisions around me now, with half their 'basement' above grade (walkouts). No shelters required. Are you saying lives in MN are not worth as much as lives in Ok? Those schools are not different from the schools my kid went to. Are you saying MN kids lives are not worth as much as OK kids lives? BTW where is your storm cellar? Let me guess, you dont have one. Just a basement, like the school in OK? Because I dont believe you actually give a shit about the building codes in Ok other than you dont like their politics. Thats obvious because you dont find in a problem that in your own back yard, where people die from twisters, there are no such laws. Its not against the law for people in Ok to build basements or storm shelters. And like I said: ... in spite of a lack of storm cellars/basements, a huge tornado (EF5) tore a path a mile wide and 20 miles long through a city with a population of 56,000 and only 24 deaths... That is .04% of the population.
nuts. I was sad to see this, but you guys have brought some science into it, and that is appreciated.
