The misogyny of the early Christian church

No. But then again I wouldn't want them to get abortions either. Nevertheless I am glad they have the right to if they so desired.

99% of the country doesn't even like to THINK about their mothers having sex, ever. But 99% are glad they did.

Definitely true. But that's true of anything. Suppose you had an addiction to drugs and some low life wiggles a few bills in front of your face to become a bus driver? Even worse.

Again true for all jobs. If you do have a very low IQ, and your choices are crime or porn, you are arguably better off making porn.

(And yes, porn DOES often send the wrong message to both men and women about sex - but so does most modern media. While I agree that work has to be done to change the stereotypes in media, that is true of more than just porn.)

 

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@Bells --

So your argument basically boils down to you having issues with certain types of pornography and then making an obviously absurd assertion that all porn is degrading to women. Gotcha. And then, when asked(indirectly or directly) for any type of evidence to support your grand claims you never follow through. I see.

However, as has already been mentioned, this is off topic. I'd certainly join you in a thread devoted to it though.

 

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Do we, men, not know women are all these things‽

 

Oh, you mean like Ginger Rogers said - women can do anything a man can do - even backwards, and in high heels?

 

Hi Stanley, St. Jerome's negative comments about women, sexuality and marriage were abundant. In his letter "Against Jovinius," stanzas 27&28, he explains that wives are "classed with the greatest evils." In case anyone misunderstands his meaning, he goes on to explain that he is not referring to some, but rather all wives: "But if you reply that it is an odious wife, I will give you the same answer as before-the mere possibility of such danger is in itself no light matter. For he who marries a wife is uncertain whether he is marrying an odious woman or one worthy of his love. If she be odious, she is intolerable. If worthy of love, her love is compared to the grave, to the parched earth, and to fire." He also explains that because women are more prone to evil, they have been subjugated to male authority.

St. Augustine held similar views, and shares them in the following quotation from Questions on the Heptateuch, Book I, § 153: “It is the natural order among people that women serve their husbands and children their parents, because the justice of this lies in (the principle that) the lesser serves the greater . . . This is the natural justice that the weaker brain serve the stronger. This therefore is the evident justice in the relationships between slaves and their masters, that they who excel in reason, excel in power.” (see also On the Sermon on the Mount, I, 34).

Tertullian held the following views against women: And do you not know that you are (each) an Eve? The sentence of God on this sex of yours lives in this age: the guilt must of necessity live too.”
•“You are the devil's gateway:
•you are the unsealer of that (forbidden) tree:
•you are the first deserter of the divine law:
•you are she who persuaded him (Adam) whom the devil was not valiant enough to attack.
•You destroyed so easily God's image, man.
•On account of your desert-that is, death-even the Son of God had to die.”

Originally found here: De Cultu Feminarum, book 1, chap 1., and cited at womenpriests.org.

Original sources have not been referenced for you simply because they are not available in English. Augustine and Jerome, for example, wrote in Latin. I've viewed relevant documents on microfilm. Their quotes regarding women are readily available in English texts, and I notice that some of these have been made available to you. Others include Wilshire (2010) Insight Into Two Biblical Passages, Trombley (2005) Who Said Women Can't Teach, and my own work published in 2013. I hope that is helpful to you.

 

The misogyny didn't begin with the earliest Christian church btw. In fact it is absent from the oldest fragments of the New Testament, written in Koine Greek. It enters church history during the Patristic age (St. Jerome, Augustine, Tertullian etc.), and is first evident in St. Jerome's Latin translation of the Bible, the Vulgate. Sadly, his negative view of women was then replicated in subsequent German and English translations. Now you have Christians of various faith traditions claiming that 4th century Roman woman-hate is "the word of God." Ignorance perpetuates prejudice.

 

If we're talking about just the New Testament, sure. Very early Christianity (I think I may have mentioned this before) was quite egalitarian, since they saw the apocalypse as nigh.
But you cannot forget that Christianity is still based off of Judaism, and reflects much of Judaic theology, religious law, and philosophy at the turn of the 1st century. And the Old Testament is very misogynist (as is just about every text from every culture at the time, but still).

 

Yes, talking about the New Testament, in its original language and context. The traditions of the majority of the sects within Judaism during the New Testament era were indeed incredibly misogynistic. One of the reasons the young rabbi, now called Jesus, got into so much trouble with the establishment of the day is that he repeatedly said, "You have let go of the commands of God, and are holding onto human traditions" (Mark 7:8). I expect he'd likely say something similar today. Btw, you might be amazed to read even what we now call the Old Testament in Hebrew or the Greek of the Septuagint. Here's a small sampling: "As for my people, tax-gatherers (praktores) glean them, and exactors (apaitountes) rule over them" (Isaiah 3:12 from the Septuagint). The same verse in the New King James translation reads, "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them." Same passage, incredibly different meaning. The Septuagint is written in the common Greek of the second century B.C.. It was widely regarded as "the Bible" of Jesus' day.

 

Philosophers such as Aristotle, also had sexist opinions of women. Misogyny usually stems from a dysfunctional relationship men have (or have had) with their mothers, and thus, they develop a disdain for women. It’s not just mere sexism, it’s a disdain/hatred for and of females. And it’s not just an ‘early church’ thing, frankly. There’s still a lot of church ‘elders’ who hate women, and want to see them…banished to Siberia. (or something like that)

As an aside, whenever I read about crimes against women, in particular violent ones committed by men, I believe their mothers should be sharing a cell with them. Men are not born this way, they are 'raised' into hate women. (it can sometimes be too, because as children, male children watched their dads treat their mothers with no respect, but it's often caused by an unhealthy relationship to some degree, with their mothers.)

 

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread...d-discussion&p=3107775&viewfull=1#post3107775

 

lol I didn't have you in mind when I posted this earlier today. But, interesting that you identify with what I posted, here.

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I hope you find healing, friend.

 

I was going to look into the connection. How did you know there was the connection between them? Did you study this?
My father was very easily angered too, and night after night we would hear them rowing over whatever it was. But Dad was stronger than me even up to the day he died (suddenly) at 86. Incredibly strong all his life, and enjoyed the open air, the country life. But Mum put up with hell for very long time. I don't know why she did it, but she still wants her ashes spread around the forestry block where we scattered my dad's, three years ago coming up in October.

 

I’ve dated a few of them, so you could say it was a ‘field’ study. Lol

The hallmark of misogynists is the tendency to humiliate women. They are very manipulative. I mean, we have all met the ‘garden variety asshole,’ but these types are on the emotionally/verbally abusive side. Rapists are typically misogynists. One of the men I was involved with, during dinner at his mother’s house (this was years ago)…threw a dish of dinner on the floor because it was ‘’too salty.’’ I remember that scene like it was yesterday, and the guy’s mom scurried to clean it up. So, in that case, that was an unhealthy relationship in the sense that the mother was afraid of her son, and somewhere along the way during childhood, that fucked up dynamic became the norm. So, it’s not always that the mother abuses the son…or neglects him. Often, that IS the case, but there are cases whereby the dynamic of the relationship is such that the mother never acted like a real mother, and the son learned early on that he could manipulate her. There are a lot of weird stories I could share, but this is in my past now, and I run in the opposite direction now if I encounter these types. In a nutshell, they humiliate women because they have a lot of shame inside of them from years of humiliation from their mothers. (typically) So, they see their mothers in 'all' women, and the anger comes out as humiliating women.

They also enjoy humiliating women, sexually. They are very ‘strange’ for lack of a better word, in the bedroom. They are not interested in a mutually rewarding relationship with a woman, as a friend, as a lover, as a colleague, as anything. They have no respect for women, instead they view them as the opposition. An enemy to be conquered. It’s hard to detect one right away, if you don’t know what you’re looking for, and women often have a tendency to blame themselves when a man is angry with them. They can be very charming at first, almost TOO charming. Healthy minded, confident men don’t behave in these ways.

It’s been strongly rumored that Picasso was a misogynist. He had mistresses, and women would ‘fight’ over him, at his request. Now, misogynists can only play their games, if they have willing participants. Women need to respect themselves enough to not permit a misogynist into their lives. So, Picasso and others like him, only get away with what a woman allows. We get what we accept.

Relating back to the OT here, the early church 'fathers' who oppressed women, were most likely misogynists. They viewed women as the opposition, and so they kept them down through humiliation and discrimination. (passing it off as ''God's way.'')

I’ve helped some of my friends get out of what would have been train wreck relationships, having shared the signs of misogyny with them.

As an aside, you mention you had issues with your own mother. (in your music thread) If it's still causing you angst, my advice is to pray for healing. We can't love others, until we accept and love ourselves. You can't erase the past, but you can learn to heal and grow from it. :m:

 

I will reply to this on the Music Thread, so can I copy part of it across to there? Or better still could you do it please.