Fight or Flight or.......Surrender

Discussion in 'Human Science' started by Quantum Quack, Jul 10, 2013.

  1. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    Just wondering if anyone is interested in exploring this slant on the famous fight and flight response, first theorize by Walter Cannon around 1915.

    Fight or Flight ... or Surrender.

    c/o wiki:
    Typically one would see in animals three possible outcomes. fight, flight, or Action Paralysis*?*" [severe indecision? perhaps?]. Most often though only two reactions are discussed those being "fight or flight" [ healthy reflexive action] Where "Action paralysis*?*" is a state of dysfunction or "reflexive breakdown*?*"

    I would like to suggest that one of the key abilities that differentiates Humans from other animals is our ability to mitigate this reflexive response with various degrees of "surrender" depending on the humans philosophical maturity and ability to comprehend his predicament.

    It is, I believe our ability to surrender to circumstances beyond our control that offers a fourth option to the fight or flight or paralysis outcomes often talked about.

    A famous wisdom often quoted in the form of a prayer [often used in support group situations] is:

    Without directly referring to this wisdom in a "religious" vein nor wishing to discuss it's religious connotations, it does I believe demonstrate Humanities historical need to find the wisdom to know when to surrender and when not to.

    I would further suggest that the often used duality*?* of "fight or flight" needs to be amended to include always the ability to "Surrender" when used in discussing the [healthy*?*] human condition.

    An example of this surrender issue:
    Proposition:
    The condition of Insomnia may be directly related , in part, to the persons inability to surrender to unconsciousness, possibly due to severe inherent , subconscious, control issues. The fear of letting go [surrendering] can often lead to an inability to fall asleep. A form of paranoia IMO.
    Sexual dysfunction, especially in males, could also be attributed to the paranoid fear of surrendering control to their partner(s).

    Note: the comment *?* indicates an word usage that is due mainly to my research laziness than anything else.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2013
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  3. ananymousse Banned Banned

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    How would anyone surrender in a philosophical sense?
     
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  5. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    I used the words "Philosophical maturity" to describe the emotional maturity gained and founded on the wisdom's acquired through life experience. Knowing what the terms "inevitable or futility" mean to ones life are key aspects.

    Example:

    A man is standing on a wide flat ocean beach alone he looks to the horizon and sees a 1000 meter high tsunami [tidal] wave approaching at enormous speed. He know he hasn't a hope in hell of surviving.

    Question: what does he do ?
    Does he run? Does he freeze?
    Does he try to dig a hole in the beech?

    Or does he surrender to the inevitable and just sit down and enjoy what ever time he has left?

    I believe his reaction to his predicament will be determined by his philosophical maturity, which includes emotional and intellectual.

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  7. ananymousse Banned Banned

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    It could be said after surrender and realization of futility the imagination runs more wild than the instantaneous urge to flee or fight. Thus we gain access to a state of mind in which the individual is neither living nor dead. He sees his life he sees his death closing in simultaneously as he views the wave, but has he surrendered to the wave or to his own fate?

    More importantly can he reawaken this state in peace? Once more could he in another?
     
  8. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

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    5,089
    Reinhold Niebuhr, 1934

    There are significant differences between the original and the poster adaptations. I don't want to go into them in detail, but they do have a bearing on the OP question.

    Rabbits can run or become perfectly still, thus invisible to some predators. That's flight or freeze, both of which make survival sense in rabbit reality; they're not well equipped to fight. A squirrel, with more choices and more intelligence, is programmed to flight or freeze, but will sometimes calculate its odds and choose fight. A canine, well equipped for fighting and running, but not well adapted to camouflage (strong carnivore scent) would have a default set between flight and fight, but is clever enough to see when freeze is a good option.... and clever enough to seek a fourth way: compromise or bluff.*

    *I once witnessed a low-speed chase between two dogs and a coyote. The dogs were not very large; the coyote might have won a fight - but with two opponents, he'd have paid dearly for that victory. The dogs could see how big and fit the coyote was. He didn't run. He walked at a brisk pace - away. He had a slim lead: the dogs could have caught him. But they didn't run, either: they walked briskly. So the gap was never closed. Once the dogs reached the boundary of their territory, they slowed, found things to sniff at and piss on, pretended to lose interest and turned back. The coyote had made his point: "I'm not scared of you; I was leaving anyway." The dogs were satisfied that they chased off an intruder. Nobody lost face. (And I could finally breathe after four minutes of not knowing whether/how badly my dogs would be injured.)

    The more intelligent a creature is, the more information it can use to assess the danger and the odds, and the more choices it perceives in a given situation. Flight, fight, freeze, hide, surrender, negotiate, pay, pray, bluff... The adrenals don't dictate a decision: they just give you the juice to carry out whichever decision the big brain chooses. It gets even more complicated for social, organized creatures, because the decision is often made by a leader - to whom other individuals had previously surrendered their power of choice - and the followers do whatever they're told, whether they believe it's their best chance of survival or inevitable death.

    In the face of an overwhelming force that can't be stopped or escaped, humans have often retreated into magical thinking; externalizing their ego, or superego, onto a representative without their own physical frailty (a god). When they surrender, you can't tell whether they are surrendering to the current threat, or whether they have already surrendered their power of choice to an incorporeal chieftain. If a decision like that is being made autonomously, it's probably more a result of present emotional state than previous philosophical maturity. In any case, you can't tell about another person.
     
  9. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    Great question....
    Has he surrendered to the wave or to his fate?

    I believe if the right amount of maturity is involved he is surrendering to his fate, his destiny more so than surrendering to the wave.
    For he know's not what is actually going to happen apart from the obvious and immediate..[what is death?] either way he is about to find out.
    It is also worth mentioning that surrender can allow the person to think with greater clarity as the hubris of fear is no longer present.

    In some forms/styles of martial arts they have a term for this.
    The Bushido warrior code also.
    I need to research to find the correct language...or maybe someone reading knows of them..
     
  10. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    Thanks for posting...
    Can I ask?
    Have you observed the difference between deliberate "stillness" and reflexive "action paralysis" in animals.

    It appears also in humans quite often as a state of non-cognizant trance [action paralysis] or premeditated controlled stillness....[deliberate stillness extreme taught in ie. Wushu (Kung Fu)]

    What sort of breed were your dogs? [ I'm glad the Coyote was cunning, smart enough]
     
  11. ananymousse Banned Banned

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    I thoroughly enjoyed this point where discussion is available. You by far have the most broad sense of intelligence of any person I have ever met.:bawl: Or red. Your modesty by far surpasses mine. I am truly envious. I am still curious. May I ask what personal experience gives you this calm I may never have the fortune of reaching? Most people become specialized in an area of expertise and loose their modesty like a rich trust fund kid would as they grow into an adult, thus they loose their thirst for knowledge like the man running from the wave. Still I get the sense (If I may intrude) that you were neither rich nor poor. It was never necessary for you to fight absolutely for your inherent beliefs, nor were they given by one idol. They just flowed into your becoming. Doubly envious and perhaps less modest I would venture the self realization of this factor could be given to society as a whole not in the speaking of the experience itself, but by the curiosity it delves to another soul through the use of your own individuality.
     
  12. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    What would a staunch atheist do in similar circumstances. Do you think?
    How would he spend his last few moments of life?
    What would he be thinking?
    Would he exclaim: "Oh My God!" and then kick himself for religious sentiment?
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2013
  13. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    Ananymousse, thank you for your kind words.
    The answer lies in sufferance. I have for over 25 years been staring at the tidal wave wondering how to cope! Always on the brink, and always having to surrender to the unknown future. Every night going to sleep not knowing whether I would wake up or not.
    It is only with sufferance that enlightenment comes.. As the suffering one endures and survives provides the motivation for the ""enlightenment in the form of understanding and tolerance" to be revealed.
    The man is on the beach he is suffering due to what he perceives will be his fate. He can only know that his fate is, and has, never been determined by him self alone, that he is a part of a universe and that he can not escape that fact. Surrendering to the truth of your reality is entirely liberating.
    I was once asked by a delightful young but seriously troubled lady .... "What have I got to offer the world when all I do is cry and suffer?"
    My answer was "Your way of coping, your history of surviving terrible events, your gift is what you have learned from all that which makes you so troubled. That is what you have to offer..." and so she went on to study the various healing arts of psychology, counseling and support group organization. Making here suffering an asset instead of a liability.
    Possibly you too can offer what you have learned to the world and empower others to survive as you have.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2013
  14. ananymousse Banned Banned

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    Our suffering is similar.

    In a dream asleep still on the phone I spoke to a girl and dreamed the most beautiful dream while she spoke to me and I to her. If you could see the dream you would understand why I seek no counsel. It was the universe speaking to me in pictures. Pictures I am still yet to fully realize in any other. Today I know she was poisoned and raped by her stepfather. I found this through my own process as she hid all truth from me. I have found love in the intelligence of a woman much older than myself who spoke her experience in a manner I could never recreate or remember. Something so simple and metaphorical she expected me to not see. Yet I did. Stayed with her all night through my own experience and counsel and slept next to her head to toe fully clothed. She counseled me without knowing fully. These are two highly different individuals. One has found overcoming through forgetting. The other by the act of overcoming itself.

    Myself? Life is grand and I suffer through others in order to protect them. Through this I have learned to protect myself. I have made it so no man can harm me in anger in order to gain power. I have brought myself to the extremes of danger and allowed curiosity to stop any weak man from overtaking me. Seeking not for control but the power of understanding I have made myself more than a man with experience not able to be written. It has to be felt! It has to be spoken to be read from expressions!

    God is alive in me! All that is or ever will be is alive in me! And I am his protector who still has one fear. The same fear any great individual has. I may never empower another through the same experience I often take for granted in pursuit of human objectivity..
     
  15. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    This is a rather profound acceptance of the limitations of man [Existential ego]. If I am reading correctly a rather beautiful way of expressing it too I might add.

    Any way, be that as it may. with all due respect, and as cathartic and enjoyable as it may be, we must consider that this thread is not about a personal discourse about such profundities, and can I ask that we maintain the topic as the one suggested in the OP? Will you accept an offer of forum friendship so that we may continue this discussion at some other time?
     
  16. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    re: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-07-09/man-who-battled-fukushima-disaster-dies-of-cancer/4810000
    I wont even begin to discuss my belief in how significant this man's and co-worker's actions were to the future of this planet....may he [they] RIP.

    and the latest plane crash in San Fransisco

    "The hostess was so calm and organized it was as if she was part of the rescue team just out of the terminal" or to that effect...

    It was the extraordinary efforts of the flight crew and how that effected the passenger response that kept the fatalities to only 2 [at last report] IMO

    She stared at that tidal wave [reality], surrendered and got on with her job.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2013
  17. ananymousse Banned Banned

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    My friend we have. This topic from what I have read is about fight, flight, or surrender in the context of human experience and discussion. How previous experience dictates a chosen response. There is no better example in compassion of surrender than we have here.
     
  18. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    an interesting combination of two very potent words...Would you care to elaborate?
     
  19. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

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    Quantum Quack:
    How would i know? I've seen chipmunks "play dead" in a cat's mouth, only to revive instantly upon release and not merely run, but perform complex evasive maneuvers, which lead me to think they'd been alert the whole time. But rabbits in headlights do seem incapable of action. I'm guessing, situation by situation.

    That, we can more easily determine as we understand our own species through similarity to ourselves. I've experienced both of those states, as well as physical incapacity and optimism [hold out for a better option] , so i can identify with the outward appearance of another person in the situation.
    Also, we can ask them afterwards - provided they survive, of course.

    Black, medium-size mixed breeds. A very smart one and a... well, let's say smart enough to follow the smart one. I'm standing on the balcony, 30 meters uphill, in my pj's - it's 5 am; the coyotes come to drink at our pond - not paralyzed, but with no effective options. All the canines involved weighed their odds and options and behaved sensibly.
    It's easy to imagine a confrontation involving humans, and being behind a fence, unable to intervene. I bet children under 7 would be sensible - after that, the variables, mental states and influences multiply and the issue becomes unpredictable, unless you know the rules by which the participants operate.

    I'm not sure what makes an atheist 'staunch'. I'm sure some apostates would revert to their earliest relationship with the universe, just as - i've heard - soldiers call out to their mothers when dying.
    But i very much doubt that an individual's response to imminent death is determined by their theology: i think it's determined by their character and the actual circumstances. Prisoners go to their execution in very different ways; dying patients in a hospital do, as well.
    I imagine that unwavering belief in an afterlife would make death less frightening for those who are also convinced of their own righteousness, but more frightening - infinitely! - for those who are not sure their sins are forgiven. For one convinced that death leads to oblivion, there is nothing to fear.
    Each of us thinks about what preoccupies us, personally, at every moment, including the final moments. I hope i would try to leave a pleasant memory for my surviving partner. Some people care about their legacy; some care about pride; patriotism, altruism, revenge, honour, spite - too many variables.

    You can't know what people truly believe, as we are capable of holding two or more incompatible convictions and so often contradict ourselves in word and deed.
     
  20. Stryder Keeper of "good" ideas. Valued Senior Member

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    Considering "Fight or Flight" is based upon an Adrenal reaction and "Surrender" is a Cerebral act, it would define that they are indeed separate.
    A good example is from a Freelance journalist who recently escaped from being held by posed "Taliban", his initial statement was when he was "Snatched" he fought initially, until one of the assailants pointed a gun at him, then he went with them for fear of death. So you can imply his first reaction was "Fight" from an Adrenal response, however when it dawned on him that his struggle would likely get him killed he utilised a Cerebral reasoning and "surrendered". Luckily though throughout his entire internment though he never truly gave up trying to work out how to get away.
     
  21. ananymousse Banned Banned

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    Identifying common experience through similar verbiage, process, intelligence, and curiosity. Equalizing a similar inequality in a classical sense of freudian "Talk".
     
  22. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    Would you agree with the following:


    "Man has since the dawn of time been evolving and developing his instinctive reflexive reactions, tempering them with reason and wisdom like a iron smith hammering at the anvil, refining a long-sword called Excalibur, for his use only in the next battle."


    I believe that it is this ability for man to mitigate and train his reflexes by using the cerebral that has got him out of the caves and into the modern era.



    I wonder though was his wisdom in abdicating to the kidnappers an act of surrender or an act of armistice. By allowing his captors control was he simply biding time in the hope of opportunity?

    Armistice:
    Would this not be an extension to the "fight" response rather than an act of surrender as used in the context of the OP?
     
  23. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    "Surrender" (or more often "freeze") is an instinct as well. You see it in all kinds of animals including many mammals.
     

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