Epigenetics?

Discussion in 'Biology & Genetics' started by Peregrine, Dec 13, 2013.

  1. Peregrine Registered Member

    Messages:
    90
    I asked if epigenetics is an accepted science on another thread and received no response.

    I also searched and found only two entries without any responses.

    Out of curiousity and because of my own ignorance on the subject, is epigenetics an accepted science on Sciforums and the general scientific community?

    Also, what are the facts and myths about this (pseudo)-science?

    Is it just that phenotypes change during life?

    Thanks
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2013
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  3. arauca Banned Banned

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    Is this what you are asking :


    WHAT IS EPIGENETICS?
    The development and maintenance of an organism is orchestrated by a set of chemical reactions that switch parts of the genome off and on at strategic times and locations. Epigenetics is the study of these reactions and the factors that influence them.


    introductory video
    THE EPIGENOME AT A GLANCE
    An introduction to the epigenome and how it instructs DNA.

    interactive explore
    GENE CONTROL
    Change the level of gene expression in a cell with the turn of a dial!

    learn more
    THE EPIGENOME LEARNS FROM ITS EXPERIENCES
    Epigenetic tags record the gene-regulating signals the cell receives.

    learn more
    EPIGENETICS & INHERITANCE
    Parents have a role in shaping the epigenome.
    http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/epigenetics/
     
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  5. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    Epigenetics is pretty new and therefor a lot of it is still not established theory (fact). First of all Epigenetics is not Lamarkanism, or at least has not been proven to be Lamarkanism yet, also the extent of epigenetics or how important is still is still up for debate. If you want please cite peer-review journal articles on the subject.
     
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  7. Peregrine Registered Member

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    Thank you. That was highly informative.

    The trash science I had perused in the WWW was saying that the genome could resequence itself.
     
  8. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    No, that it probably doesn't do, except maybe as it runs over those pesky porcine DNA chunks. What it does do is shut things down, turn things on. I'd call it an accepted science - at least in the sense that any biologist rejecting it is occupying a post for which he or she is not qualified.
     
  9. wellwisher Banned Banned

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    The traditional theory of genetics and evolutions involves random changes over long period of time via natural selection. It places the DNA at the center of all change. Epigenetic observations challenges this dogma, in that external inductions can tweak the expected output from any gene on the DNA including altering the output from specific template relationships assumed for genes. This has important implications for evolution since things can happen not expected from the genes, since epigenetic is based on genetic output modifications. One can have an expression in the biology without the expected gene on the DNA, if the mRNA is modified after it is formed.

    In the traditional sense, say gene X produces a particular protein. This implies certain limitations based on slow boat evolution and selection. With epigenetic change the same gene has much more flexibility since it can now become a base gene for modification in output even in unexpected ways.

    The dogma of evolution is challenged by this. The dogma is dragging its feet since it is aware the religious hayseeds will use this to prove that evolution was all about faith for decades and therefore was a religion disguised as science.

    You can have two apes, one dependent on traditional genetics like in evolutionary theory the other on epigenetic changes. The epigenetic ape can become more human even with the exact same DNA since it is not limited to just that set. This was blaspheme until science began to show epigenetics in the lab, which I predicted for many years before it was known.
     
  10. wellwisher Banned Banned

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    Epigenetic change adds an interesting will card to the blend. We are born with a given DNA, which is in all our cells, which is very conservative. This is a hard back up copy for the natural person within us. From this base state of the DNA, we get epigenetic change, which can create a different us, that is more transient and not as conserved as the base us connected to the genes on the DNA.

    The modern human has will power and choice. We are not slaves to genetic based instinct but can choose to go along or ignore these. Our base DNA has these instincts conservatively recorded, while our epigenetic self can modify these base genes into something unique to us in this time and place. This is done via the brain, since the brain is the source of will power and choice, with will power the tip of the epigenetic iceberg. This is a futurist prediction for science.
     
  11. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    That, sir, is bullshit. Epigenetics involves a range of possible alternate phenotypic outcomes. Type taxa and harmonic allelic means also exist. No one working in epigenetics challenges this most basic fact of genotype-phenotype correlation.
     
  12. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    I once had an argument with a homopath over this. She believed that through homopathy her child's CF could be cured, she argued it could change his defective gene, and even call up epigenetics a proof. I told her that her son lacks a gene for a specific type of ion channel and no activation or de-activation of other genes can fix that, epigenetics can't write create new genes just modulate the ones your already born with.
     
  13. Peregrine Registered Member

    Messages:
    90
    My field is not biology. So let me see if I have this correct in lay terms.

    1. Epigenetics (i understand it is a field of study, but I dont know the correct terms) is a 'communication' tool attached to DNA.

    2. Epigenetics can 'decide' when to active different cells due to outside influence. For instance, higher stress, etc.

    3. Epigenetics is built over time from birth.

    4. And because Epigenetics can 'activate' different cells depending on circumstances, phenotypes are affected.

    5. And if I understand, epigenetics can be activated by will based on habit or change in habit, will power, etc.

    What else?
     
  14. wellwisher Banned Banned

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    5,160
    One can be a 99 pound weakling, but with proper training and diet become a 240 pound muscle head. The original or the conserved genetics add up to the 99 pound body frame. Epigenetic changes, via will power, alters how these genes express and add up. If he stopped working out, the epigenetic changes would slowly begin to default back toward the hard copy within our DNA. One would return toward 99 pounds. But it may not entirely reach the conserved steady state DNA, since some permanent changes will remain. It is not clear, whether post transcription modification remain or whether the brain's control system maintains lingering memories to maintain modifications.

    Without choice and willpower there would be no instinct to want to change from 99 pounds. The 99 pounds would be integrated wi the instincts so both would coordinate. There would need to be an external push to take the place of internal choice. I can enslave a person and force him to work out until he is 245 pounds. nIf a new predator appears and places more stress on the local critters, they work out more and get stronger; epigenetic changes.

    Epigenetic change has a sense of direction and goal and is based on cause and effect. This contradicts the random assumptions of the traditional evolutionary models based on casino math. If I work out to get large, it is not a random thing which is different for each person but has a cause and effect which allows for group training. We don't have to sit around and wait for random changes on the DNA over millions of years, but can get results in a few months. This is how nature can adapt quickly to any change that is placed upon it; external cause and internal effect.

    We can go the other way too, via will power. We can begin with genes that allow for health and well being and through irrational choices, conditioning and willpower, make the body and mind sick with epigenetic changes. These types of change can be corrected by using the mind to connect to the conserved base DNA.
     
  15. Peregrine Registered Member

    Messages:
    90
    How does this change chromosomes?

    I understand that certain physical traits may APPEAR to be different, but the DNA would remain the exact same. The difference is that, in your example, muscle protein strands would increase. Not that the DNA would change even in groups of people who work out.

    Pardon my skepticism. This is all just very new information for me.

    Thanks!
     
  16. wellwisher Banned Banned

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    5,160
    I tried to make the distinction between the natural self composed of our conserved DNA, and the epigenetic self. In the former, the DNA is conserved from birth to provide a back up copy, while the epigenetic self can deviate from that, in part, of in terms of integrated effects. If the 99 pound weakling did nothing but follow the inertia of his conserved genes self, he would remain thin. The epigenetic self needs to undergo system wide change to support another 150 pounds. This does not grow new genes, just modifications of the genetic output. The hard copy remains conserved, while the epigenetic self is a direct cause and effect of the external push of will, exercise and diet. Training is predictable science and does not come out different each time.

    Say we make use of the cause and effect connections of the epigenetic self, in the areas of the body where there is gamete cell creation and re-combination. Instead of random like within the conserved DNA self, we make more use of cause and effect capacity of the epigenetic self to make the combined genes become closer to what we need for a better hard copy of the new epigenetic self. We need to divide the DNA in half and then combine them using more in line with cause and effect.
     
  17. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    First of all its important to note that if you bulk up with muscles, your children will not be anymore likely to be hulks. Now there is some evidence that gene activated by external events (like starvation) can be activated in gametes and in fetal development such that starved parents can inbue starvation resistance to their children, but that resistance was always present in the parents, before they were starved, it mearly need to be activated. There is no evidence that epigenetics can create new genes, it can only act on genes that already exists, and the evidence for epigenetic inheritance across gametes is still limited as well. Besides that epigenetics is very important in multicelluar development in allowing for a cell to differentiate from embrotics stem cell to liver cells, nerve cells, skin cells, etc, etc all while still having the same genome. With some effort and varying success we can strip away all these epigentic markers and revert a cell to a totipotent stem cell form and even make clones: proof that epigenetics is a transitory system and reversible, unlike actual genetics. Fixing a mutated gene (genetic engineering) is a much harder feat than deactivating or activating a gene (epigenetic engineering?).
     
  18. Peregrine Registered Member

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    90
    Got it. Thanks!
     
  19. wellwisher Banned Banned

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    5,160
    Genes are not independent things but rather represent a grouping of information needed to achieve an integrated effect. The "junk" genes add the filler needed to achieved this 3-D effect.

    As an analogy, the words in a book are like our genes. The words alone do not make the integrated story, since different stories can use the same words and have a different plot. If I started with only 5000 top words, we can write endless stories with those words by simply shuffling them into a new order. You may not see any new words .yet the output can be entirely different. Knowledge of the DNA as an integrated 3-D story is not well understood to see the connection. We tend to fixate on one word at a time and do word counts, which is not enough to analyze the plot of a book.

    Going from 99 pounds to 245 pounds of muscle, totally changes the story of life.
     
  20. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    Convert this esoteric drivel into a coherent theory: predict a result! For example will buffing up to 99 pound to 245 make your children more buff? In short will your children directly inherit the muscle mas you acquired? No, no they will not. Another experiment: Treat someone CF by giving drugs that correct their defective ion channel, will their children no longer be born with CF or as CF carriers? If you do plastic surgery on a ugly person will the children inherit the prettiness?

    Again epigenetics is not lamarkianism. Genetics operates over-all by Darwinism, take any organism and any phenotypical trait and it evolves and is transmitted genetically, epigenetics on the other hand is a specialty event that happens ABOVE genetics. Epigenetics can't activate or deactivate a gene that has not evolved or exists. Any epigenetic ability to transmit an acquired phenotype had to evolve genetically: for example the ability to be starvation resistant epigenetically had to evolve genetically in that the very mechanism to tell gamete or embryo to be prepared to enter a starved world is genetic and evolved Darwinian. For example no genetic mechanism has evolved to re-program gametes for muscle buffness as a response of buffing up, then children are not going to acquire their parents pump-iron physic in utero or conception! Again no genetic mechanism has evolved for transmitting the prettiness enhancement of plastic surgery into gamates and embroyos, etc, etc. Yet on the other hand if I simply select buff people and breed them and repeat I will breed buffer people, if I select pretty people, etc, etc, over enough generations the effect will be incontrovertible. I could choose ANY trait for such genetic manipulation, but only a handful of traits if any have epigentic inheritability.
     
  21. wellwisher Banned Banned

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    5,160
    Say our 99 pound weakling becomes 245 pounds of muscle due to will power and epigenetic change. His entire body has to adapt to this weight and muscle gain, since the body is a 3-D integration and not a bag of disconnected genes.

    Since he is now buff and as strong as an ox, but fundamentally the same nice nerdy person, he has now created a new dimension of natural selection for himself, relative to his previous state. Now he could become the dominant male who gets to breed with the major babes, since he can win the breeding games with other males. This assures his dominant genes move to the future blended with nice babe(s) genes.

    Sometime nature spreads out the various qualities and talents with the original 99 pound weakling a very intelligent biologists by nature. Now he is a very intelligent biologist who can squish weaker biologists so he can demonstrate how nature can also evolve epigenetic selection. Selection assures the best genes move forward which now become his.

    Due to the prestige of his position as the dominant breeding male, and because of his large size and intelligence, his children learn from his social behavior and they to spend time studying and in the gym trying to emulate dad. His boys are large and smart, too. If we only found his bones and those of his sons, a thousand years from now (fossils), we would conclude he had genes that gave him larger than normal muscle mass, since these are fossils and we don't have enough data to conclude anything else, since that is the traditions.
     
  22. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    This is stupid, there nothing novel about this, we all know the we can build muscle, we all know that some people are born more built then other and that even some people can never ever build up much muscle mass. The ability to build more muscle is genetically predetermined, if you build up or not is besides that fact. What you have describe does not violate genetics, evolution or provide any new understanding of our biology and physiology, all you done is stuck a new word in there.
     
  23. wellwisher Banned Banned

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    5,160
    This is not true. I created a scenario what would be blindly called random and natural selection but would be stem from cause and effect due to directed willpower or external inductions. This is where the brain overrides the predetermined 3-D DNA and alter the outcome due to want or necessity. The Cambric explosion could be explained by epigenetic alternations on a smaller set of DNA.

    But that aside, you appear to more interested in the 3-D DNA. In the case of mind over matter to gain muscle, the genetic expression on the DNA has to increase for those genes that produce muscle and as well as amplified in all the support cells since the entire body has to grow in proportion. These are things the 99 pound self did not require. They both have the same base DNA, but the expression on the 3-D self is vastly different leading to more natural selection. Fossils cannot differentiate this very well.

    As an analogy, say you come home to the house and look around in the fridge and in the cupboards and you notice there is nothing good to eat. Another person who is good at cooking, uses the same set of, nothing to eat, and prepares an excellent meal. The ingredients or the genetic set did not change, only how they were prepped, spiced up and combined. It is this adaptability that allows life to quickly adapt and not have to remain linear until the next lottery.
     

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