honestly flash, theres nothing wrong with me, nothing 'to spit out' ummmmmmmmmm ------------------ Im a shambles, but Im Gods shambles!!
Lori - Firstly, I didn't call you stupid. Through reading your frequent posting, I know that not to be the case. However, each human has it within them to be stupid on occasion. I am a friend of Mierdaan, a new poster to this forum, and I tell him he's full of shit all the time. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! However, I don't tell him that when he raises valid points, which was the difference in this case. This wouldn't be much of a forum if when somebody posted something, everyone responded with "You're full of shit, ha-ha" and ignored what that person was saying. Personally, I wouldn't have any problem with you saying that, if you followed it with "here's why....." FyreStar [This message has been edited by FyreStar (edited October 16, 1999).]
I agree with you Oxygen in the theory of the 'big bang'. I cannot imagine ALL the matter in the universe within one planet or sun. There was an original bang but it was no bigger than any other supernova (relatively speaking). It was just the first. I am also a fan of history. And it the history of the ancient world, especially the history of Shamanism that predated myth and theology, that convinces me that the christian religion is not just error but an error stolen from pagans and shamans.
I have guilt about lots of things, and I pray for forgiveness. But I'm confused....what does that have to do with you? And, isn't that pretty typical for any Christian? That's what Flash is going off about. I'm a real person. I'm not afraid of that, and though I realize I have a propensity to sin, I do try very very hard not to, and when I know I've done something wrong, I pray for forgiveness. I pray for forgiveness even if I don't realize I've done something wrong, just because I know that I don't know everything, and that life is a learning experience, and that I don't know nearly as much as there is to know through God. But I sure am trying. I think our problem is this....cuss words don't freak me out like they do some people. When you hear an f-bomb (and others) seems like you all immediately assume I'm an evil person. I, on the other hand know that I sure have done a lot worse than that!!! Everything's relative in a way. I'm just trying to communicate, but not to offend. Realize that people cuss all of the time, and it doesn't mean they're BAD people. Just mean's their rednecks is all. LOL! ------------------ God loves you and so do I!
Lori, So now sin is relative? That's not what you were telling me in another thread. Cuss words don't "freak me out", but I do wish you wouldn't use them on a public board where young children might read them. It's not that I believe that kids these days haven't been exposed to all of the words you use - but that isn't the point. The liberal use of cuss words has helped to bring our society down to the level it's at now, and I think you'd agree things are not what they should be in our society at this time. For this reason I find your use of vulgarity offensive, and it is completely unnecessary when making your point.
Lori-Of course I realize people swear. But is it necessary? When you cuss on your post...sometimes I would love to respond to some of your very interesting thoughts, but don't know how to approach what, in my mind, is such a contradiction. I am merely trying to communicate. I did put "just curious" because I meant to disarm. By the way, I don't believe that any human being is evil.
Here's something that really turned me off to the "christian" religions. You all are familiar with those little "comic" books with little stories in them that are supposed to expound on a virtue - one will be about confessing to Jesus, one about not lying, etc? I read one that absolutely fired me up. It was the story of a buddist, he was a very good man, he was wealthy and gave to the poor. He adopted orphaned children and just overall did his best to be a good man his whole life. So he dies, and goes to hell. Why? Because he worshipped the wrong god. He knew Jesus existed, but instead of accepting him into his heart, yadda, yadda, yadda, he worshipped Buddha. I'm interested to hear what the Christians out there think of that! Is God so full of himself that he'll condemn a man for doing the right things just because he worshipped one of the competitors? Seems to me a guy so high-and-mighty (literally!!) could afford to be a little more generous! Yes, I know, this is just one little pamphlet, but this attitude seems to be prevalent amongst the Christians - a sort of "my way or the highway" frame of mind.
SkyeBlue, This is the whole point in case. This is the whole reason for our existence. We are given the generous gift of free will, by a generous God. How we choose to use it is up to us. There is only one way to God... Only one way for our souls to share eternally with God in the fellowship of the Holy Spirit. God sent Jesus Christ, in the flesh, to show us the way. When you "know" the way and you consciously choose to ignore it or choose another path, you suffer the consequences... eternally.
Truestory - But my point is - how could this guy have known for sure which was right and which was wrong? He did his best, according to what he "knew" and still was punished for it. Jesus didn't come to this man personally, this guy made the best choices with the information at hand, and really behaved the way God probably would have wanted him to. He had the right motive, he did almost everything right, why couldn't God be just a *little* forgiving, and maybe give the poor guy a second chance? I guess my question is - how vengeful does an all-powerful being have to be? Seems like there's a lot of room for forgiveness there. Why doesn't God send another messiah, at least? If there is a God, why is He letting all these otherwise good people slip through His ethereal fingers? If there is a God, doesn't he realize this is the Age of Information? Couldn't He at least assign a few angels to miracle duty down here in the mortal plain? Or at least a webpage! (Okay, just kidding, but you know what I mean!) And what about people that live out in the "non-civilized" world - indiginous (sp?) tribes in the rainforest and such that have never even heard the words "Jesus" or "God" and worship some other diety? Are they condemned to Hell just because the missionaries didn't make it to that neck o' the woods in time?
This is the kind of stuff that bugs me about christianity too. While christians desperately attempt to validate their faith by interpreting the bible in thier favor, they overlook something as simple as universal love by God. If so many other things in the bible can be interpreted as false or misunderstood, why is this concept so hard to accept. It's simply nonsensical to think that a universal God does not equally love everyone(and everything) regardless of wether they believe in him.
SkyeBlue, Those who have not heard the words of "Jesus" are not condemned to Hell just because the missionnaries didn't make it to that neck o' the woods in time. However, neither will they ever know God. That is why it is so important to spread the word throughout the world, so that as many souls as possible have the opportunity to share eternally with God in the fellowship of the Holy Spirit. Now, if the fellow in your example received the word of God, and "knew" that accepting Jesus Christ was the only way to salvation and he used his free will in a way that denied Jesus Christ, then regardless of his other works, he did not do the one thing that was needed for salvation. He did not accept Jesus Christ as his savior. I am sorry that you see God as being unforgiving. How unforgiving is a God that sends their only Son, in the flesh, to show us the way, to suffer and die an excruciatingly painful death for all of us so that our sins may be forgiven? This, to me, is the ultimate forgiver! I am also sorry that you see God as being vengeful. Jesus Christ was sent to be among us so that the word of God would be perfected, so that we would "know" the path to God. The life and teachings of Jesus Christ was filled with miracles and was well-documented for our benefit. How many of us would willingly sacrifice the life of our only child so that the souls of humanity could be saved? I'm sorry you feel the way you do. I do not see God as "vengeful". I see God as the ultimate giver! (and I am finding it hard to believe that all of this was not good enough or "enough" for you?) Why should God send another messiah, SkyeBlue? Because there is only one savior and that is Jesus Christ, who will come again to raise the living and the dead. We don't know the exact time of the second coming but, if we want to be saved, we must use the great gift of free will in the manner it was intended for salvation and accept Jesus Christ as our saviour before then. It is not too late! All things can be forgiven. Behold the Son (Jesus Christ). Through Him, all good things will come. [This message has been edited by truestory (edited October 26, 1999).]
Okay, so if these people that have never heard of Jesus don't go to Hell, they certainally can't go to Heaven, where do they go? Are they just completely outside the framework and their spirit or soul just dissipates? Are they reincarnated? Are they left to wander the earth as ghosts? As far as God being the ultimate giver - he gave his son up for humanity's good. Okay, let's accept that for the moment. Poor Jesus! God's awfully generous with other people's pain and suffering, isn't he? How would you feel if your parents gave you up to be tortured and killed just so that the rest of your family might live a little better? (not talking about sacrificing yourself to save their lives, just saving their peace of mind) Why couldn't God find another, less painful way of accomplishing this? If he's all-powerful and all that good stuff, doesn't he control the whole enchilada? Why would a human body's death have anything to do with the sin of people not even born yet? This has never made any sense to me, it seems excessively cruel. An awful waste of a life. The reason I think he should send another messiah - have you taken a look at the world lately? If there is a God, he's letting his pets get out of control. I own a couple of cats, and I take responsibility for them, I make sure they're fed and taken care of. As a "loving creator" God is falling asleep on the job. I just have adopted my cats, I sure would feel a lot more responsibility towards them if I had CREATED them! Has God no empathy? Is He so petty that if people don't buy into His religion and worship Him, He turns His back and pouts? Are His resources so thin that he can't spare some time to at least confirm his existence to his creations? He did create us, after all, He built into us this monkey curiosity that makes us pry into the questions of the universe - He must know that his existence is doubted, even by most of the people that desperately want to believe. I don't know if you believe in your heart of hearts, truestory, but I know a lot of devout Christians that have faith wearing thin. It doesn't help any that the bible has been translated and altered along the way so many times, it's message is totally garbled. Too many try to take it at face value, which is just silly. As a metaphor, there are some good lessons in there. Of course, most religions have the same type of messages, be it Wicca, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc. My last point (at least for now!) - Okay, let's say there is a God, He created all of mankind. That includes me. When He created me, why did he create such doubt? He made me, bones, body and soul - he must have implated this doubt in me as it sure didn't come from my (devoutly Catholic) mother! Instead, he showed me all the negativity that can come from organized religion, exposed me to death and sorrow, and then expects me to just feel his love and take it on faith that he exists?? Somehow, I'm not convinced. This feels too much like my parents telling me there really IS a Santa, even though I saw them putting the presents under the tree, know what I mean? Sure, it would be nice to believe that there's this loving father, waiting in the curtains to whisk you into his warm arms and save you from the harsh, cruel world. But through his lack of intervention the world is harsher and crueler than it must be. If you half-drown a kitten and then rescue it should that kitten then love you for the rest of it's life?
Wow, SkyeBlue! You sound extremely angry with God. The message I am hearing from you is... If you were God, you would have done things differently. Well, you are not God and it is very apparent that you do not understand God's plan. God has already done the thing that you ask, however, you are not accepting it. It doesn't seem good enough for you. The existence of God was confirmed through the conception, birth, life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Let me ask you this, if I may... Have you even tried to do things the way that God has taught you? Have you ever seriously prayed for Jesus Christ to enter your life? Have you opened your heart completely to the love of Jesus Christ? Have you been filled with the Holy Spirit? Have you accepted Jesus Christ as you savior? If you did, in addition to being saved through Jesus Christ after death, in addition to walking with God eternally in the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, your spiritual vision would become clearer and the anger and negativity that you are now experiencing would go away... you would feel much better while you are here. Try it, seriously. You will find peace, joy, happiness and salvation. Rest assured, you will like it.
Truestory You certainly bypassed the issue. You've come up with a response that I can say I've read a few hundred times worded almost to the tee. I'll give you credit for not getting into the name calling thing some of the people do.( Jesus hater, etc. ) I've tried myself to believe the Bible, but when you find the flaws you just have to say 'What the hells going on here ?'. The fact is Science nor Religion has the answear. If there is a God, he apparently doesn't wish to be known now, and there ain't no amount of Science or Religious Dogma that's going to prove he is or isn't.
truestory, I guess I can see how you got this impression, but I am not angry at God. How can one be angry at something/someone they don't believe exists? I am not really angry at anything - annoyed is more like it. I also don't need a God to give me peace, joy, and happiness. I am quite happy, and have found profound peace, just not through blind faith in a diety that is (in my opinion) indifferent to his responsibilities. My peace comes from within myself, as does my joy and happiness. I believe that these things cannot come from an external source, they must be found internally. External joy is superficial and temporary. (Compare the thrill of a new car to the thrill of accomplishing a goal - which lasts longer?) My beef is with Christianity. Not the God, because I don't believe it/he/she/whatever exists. I resent being told that if I don't follow a set of restrictions I'll go to this awful place. And then, when I look at these rules and restrictions, their backup material (I mean the bible here) is so contradictory... I resent the fact that schools are being told not to teach evolution. I resent the fact that the word "GOD" is on my money. Basically, I have the misfortune of living in a society that has merged government with religion (what ever happened to seperation of church and state, anyway?). I know, I know, USA isn't the worst offender, but I can't pretend to like it! Not that I'm saying Christianity is bad, I just want it to stay out of my schools, off my money, and away from the politicians. As a concept, Christianity is just fine, just as most other religions are. I like to think I respect everyone's beliefs. That's why you won't hear me call you stupid for believing in God, or even tell you that you are wrong. I think you have the right to believe in Holy Horny Toads, if that's what makes sense to you. But that's not going to stop me from questioning you about the Holy Horny Toad, especially if "In Holy Horny Toad We Trust" is inscribed on my currency! I question everything I am told to "have faith" in. Hence my questions here. If it doesn't make sense, I must question it. If I don't understand, I must ask. I don't think I'll ever get an answer that will fully satisfy me - I keep getting told to take it on faith, or to accept Jesus into my heart (which is the same thing, as far as I can tell). So please don't preach to me. If you don't have the answer to a question, say so! You aren't a priest (are you?), so I don't really expect you to have all the answers. Just don't tell me to accept Jesus into my heart, etc, etc, because it will never work. BUT! if you can give me answers that make sense, I just might begin to believe. See, my mind isn't as closed as you thought! My basic 'religious' belief is that I DON'T KNOW the answers. I don't know what happens after I die. I don't even know what I *want* to have happen after I die. There's only one way to find out for sure, and as yet I'm sure not willing to take that step! Anyway, truestory, do you wish to answer my last post? I AM curious to see what you have to say. I just don't promise to believe it. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Gee SkyeBlue, So sorry. I did not perceive that you were actually looking for an answer. I took your post to be basically rhetorical in nature... What, specifically would you like to know? PS... There is something that I would like to know. How can you "know" that accepting Jesus into your heart will "never work?" [This message has been edited by truestory (edited October 27, 1999).]
truestory, You misunderstand. I don't "know" that "accepting Jesus" won't work. You preaching to me is what won't work! As to what I want to know - I refer you back to my second-to-last post. I don't really want to retype it. Refering to the fate of those that die without ever hearing about Jesus, etc.
Zapper, There is a reason that the words in my post sound very familiar to you. It is because it is the message which God sent to us through Jesus Christ... The message which is to be spread throughout the world so that the souls of mankind can be saved. You are exercising the free will which God gave you when you decide to accept it or ignore it.
SkyeBlue, Those you refer to go into a state of natural happiness but separated from God. That state is commonly referred to as Limbo.
So, then, those 'souls' are lost to God forever? There you go, another reason for a new messiah! Okay, I got a new question for you! (And anyone else! This thread is starting to get taken over by myself & truestory) The whole Hell concept confuses me too. (Stop rolling your eyes, truestory!) Is Hell supposed to be the final stop, end of the line, or is it supposed to be a sort of prison system - you do your time, take your punishment and then you are considered to have made up for your wrongdoing? More fuel for the argument - here's a concept I haven't run accross yet in these message boards - what do you all think about this? What if, when you die, your fate is determined by your mind-set? So if you believe in Heaven or Hell, you go there. If you believe in Nirvana, that's what you attain. If you are an atheist, you just dissapate and there's nothing afterward. There are so many different types of people anyway - heaven to me would be quite different than heaven to someone else. Maybe there is one God, and He/She/It appears to each culture in a different visage, to better relate to his poor stupid creations that are too simple to comprehend his/her/it's complex, all-present, all-knowing, omnipotent, existance? Okay, so I guess that was more than just one more question. Sorry Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
