A matter of trust?

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Tiassa, Apr 26, 2000.

  1. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    If the atheists might forgive the blanket-nature of the statement, I would say that "We all have faith in God."

    By this I mean that, whatever we call that original creative principle of the Universe, we come to believe--in varying degrees--in the reality of that situation. (This does apply even within the realm of science, as those who call atheism a religion are quick to point out.)

    In the scientific realm, though, we have a number of set criteria upon which we judge the "rightness", propriety, or truth of our assertions. Essentially, we trust that seeing these characteristics in this part of space means that star formation is taking place on this particular scale, and for these reasons.

    Among the faithful there is the issue that the standard for proof of faith is based within the faith it proves.

    And that's where it gets sticky to me.

    An atheist might have "faith" in a given concept. I, following the atheist's line of argument, can accept the transition from faith to fact (the standards of reliability and validity).

    I run into trouble when I try to follow faith to fact within a religious structure. We declare our religious faith to be fact, yet look to assumptions required to declare the presence of the faith at all in order to validate it. In other words--to a Christian, the Bible is true, but to an atheist, not so. The same of the Muslims and the Koran, ad infinitum.

    We have faith in our gods. We affirm it, declare it, and exercise it.

    But do we trust our gods? Or, more appropriately, do we trust our faith? After all, for every person who declares that this principle is supported irrefutably by this "fact" in a holy book, is there not also one person who invariably will customize that faith to maximize authority within the context, or at least to make Confession a less tedious experience?

    "Jesus saves" is a wonderful example. As words, I cannot argue with them. But when the people who say that Jesus saves make salvation and condemnation their own business, are they trusting God at all? To me, it doesn't seem so.

    Is an extremist who bombs an abortion clinic really trusting in God's justice?

    Is a jihad-fundamentalist who uses machine guns and hostages to get his way truly trusting God to handle the situation, as God is wont to do?

    We have faith.

    Do we have trust?

    In God we trust? I don't think so. But it's my opinion, and we all know what that's worth.

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    thanx,
    Tiassa

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  3. frank t Registered Member

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    You are right to say that we all have faith. We all believe in something. Trust is another story; In order to trust we have to let the thing or person we trust do the thing that we think we should do if we didn't trust, and that is hard. That is what trust is all about. To prove it, ask someone to guide you around your environment with your ewes closed. You trust them entirely to tell you when to step up, down, and around objects. This is what trust is all about. Not many people would want to do that.
     
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  5. pashley Registered Senior Member

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    Trust in God, but lock the doors anyway....

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    "It was there, at the edge of the black abyss, that I found myself."
    -Patrick Ashley
     
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  7. pashley Registered Senior Member

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    Good points.

    Life is a gambling, trusting experinece; I'm gambling I'll get to work ok; I'm trusting I'll live until tommorow. That's all we can do.

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    "It was there, at the edge of the black abyss, that I found myself."
    -Patrick Ashley
     
  8. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    I seem to have missed my own point.

    I wanted first to distinguish between two kinds of faith. The reason was the difference in the execution of faith.

    And the reason for that was that I wanted to ask, not about a dead end in one mode of faith, but to what degree that faith is applied.

    Thus, "Do we trust our gods?"

    If I might start with Chritianity because it is one with which I am more closely associated:

    If God is the supreme judge, then why the proactive stress? (Again, I might ask this of just about any religion or church I come across.) Why is so much of our God-given time wasted trying to apply one set of God-given morals to other people.

    If we "banned gay people"--which isn't much of a stretch, but still--like the left accused the right of doing in Oregon and Colorado in 1992, okay ... fine, so to speak. But isn't that really 'twixt them and God? In the meantime, dislocating a portion of society is rarely, if ever, healthy.

    The way I see it, the alienation I would cause with my "Yes, let's antagonize gay people" vote causes more harm in God's eyes than just shutting the hell up about it. Tell your kids what you want, and maybe God is happy that you've taught your kids to fear people for superficial reasons, encouraging them to continue the alienation game that makes one wonder what's so special about God's house at all.

    Or ...

    One could simply trust God to judge that person as promised, and do what God Thinks is Right.

    Now, as I've mentioned ... this is not limited to Christianity.

    Muslim violence in the Middle East.
    Catholic violence in Ireland
    Protestant violence in Ireland.
    A plethora of violence in India.
    Alleged "bombings for God" in the U.S.

    Nobody who commits these acts is truly trusting God to execute the Plan as God Knows is Best.

    If I recall my own quasi-Lutheran associations, trusting God is one of the most important things about faith.

    Or does faith equate with God's commission to commit these and lesser foul acts?

    That's a little bit more of what I was after. Sorry for the high and outside.

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    thanx,
    Tiassa

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  9. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    Two erratum to note in my last post:

    #1) I feel the need to state unequivocally that, yes, the "banning gays" vote to which I referred really was about religion. From the beginning, campaign rhetoric centered around Hebrew scripture and a Letter, I believe, of Paul. In re-reading my own post, I determined that I have left the interpretation that 1992 was simply about people not liking homosexuality. Unfortunately, the whole thing was a religion issue.

    2.) If anyone was paying that much attention ... no, I never really did qualify my statements prior to
    I had only implied such a qualification by varying my examples. But it is important for me to stress, especially in this issue, that this transcends any single religion.

    Sorry for the extra notes, but even I would occasionally view such omissions as a pretense of veiled hostility. This is not my intent.

    Really, I'm curious about the Trust thing.

    thanx much,
    Tiassa

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  10. Theword Registered Member

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    The person who is trustworthy in very small matters is also trustworthy in great ones; and the person who is dishonest in very small matters is also dishonest in great ones. If you are not trustworthy with dishonest wealth, who will trust you with true wealth? If you are not trustworthy with what belongs to another, who will give you what is yours? No servant can serve two masters. He will either hate one and love the other, or be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.

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    This is The Word of God
     
  11. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    I've listened to Tipper Gore speak for five consecutive minutes without forming a single sentence that made any sense.

    The last guy who ever answered me like that was a preacher with a penchant for hurling Bibles around the room when upset, or possibly a street preacher in Eugene, Oregon. Forgive me, please, if I otherwise decline comment.

    thanx,
    Tiassa

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    We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)
     
  12. Theword Registered Member

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    I am he, the one who is speaking with you. I have food to eat which you do not know. My food is to do the will of the one who sent me and to finish his work.

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    This is The Word of God
     
  13. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    And you must be ... Darkwing Duck?

    --Tiassa

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  14. Flash Registered Senior Member

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    ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sorry, but that was funny! Good one Tiassa LOL
     
  15. Theword Registered Member

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    I AM known by my family.

    Who is my mother? Who are my brothers and sisters?

    Whoever does the will of my heavenly Father is my mother, brother and sister.



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    This is The Word of God
     
  16. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    It's called megalomania.

    Seek help.

    --Tiassa

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  17. Theword Registered Member

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    I give you praise, Father, Lord of the heaven and earth, for although you have hidden these things from the wise and the learned you have revealed them to the childlike. Yes, Father, such has been your gracious will. All things have been handed over to me by my Father. No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son and anyone to whom the Son wishes to reveal him.

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    This is The Word of God
     
  18. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    Theword


    So there.

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    Now ... I quote the American pop band Toad the Wet Sprocket when I say:

    "You can bend my ear; we can talk all day. Just be sure I'm around when you finally have something to say."

    --Tiassa

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    We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)
     
  19. Theword Registered Member

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    Hear another parable. There was a landowner who planted a vineyard, put a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it, and built a tower. Then, he entrusted it to tenants and went on a journey. When vintage time drew near, he sent his servants to the tenants to obtain his produce. But the tenants seized the servants and one they beat, another they killed, and a third they stoned. Again he sent other servants, more numerous than the first ones, but they treated them in the same way. Finally, he sent his son to them, thinking, 'They will respect my son.' But when the tenants saw the son, they said to one another, 'This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and acquire his inheritance.' They seized him, threw him out of the vineyard, and killed him. What will the owner of the vineyard do to those tenants when he comes?

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    This is The Word of God
     

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