Jet Streams!

Discussion in 'Earth Science' started by scienceguy, Jan 30, 2015.

  1. scienceguy Registered Member

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  3. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    His physics is correct. I assume his telling that a Boeing 707 headed east got to destination in Europe an hour early due to being in a jet stream is true also. It was probably an unusual dip to lower altitude in the jet stream the 707 go about a 300mph boost in ground speed - a strong "tail wind.".

    The recent extremely cold, record breaking weather is also due to an unusual "dip" in the jets stream - but in latitude, not altitude. It is the thermal difference between the polar and mid latitude regions that drives the jet steam., but as the poles are warming several time faster the momentum in the jet steam is not as great as it was before "Global Warming" weaken the jet stream. With less momentum, the jet steam can and does wander more now.

    The basic primary flow is for cold air near the surface to go South and an equal mass of warmer air to go North at higher altitudes. The higher altitude jet steam has a resultant flow from west to east as when that mass of air was over, say the US, it on average went a longer path around the earth in 24 hours, but when it is closer to the pole, that west to east speed will take it around the short path in at higher latitude in less than 24 hours; but of course the ground below takes 24 hours to rotate 360 degrees. I.e. The mass of air up high, to a large extent "members" the higher speed it had when over the US. I.e. is going to the east faster than the ground below it is. That is why the jet stream flows towards Europe from Canada.
     
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  5. Ophiolite Valued Senior Member

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    Absolutely valid. I took a Houston-Amsterdam flight about ten or fifteen years ago with a 200mph + tail wind that gave us a ground speed in excess of 720 mph. Even in "normal" times the west-east crossing is close to an hour faster than the east-west, because of jet stream effects.
     
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  7. wellwisher Banned Banned

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    If the jet stream is due to a thermal gradient, the higher the thermal gradient, the more energy there should be in the jet stream. The deeper the jet stream dips, this allows the jet stream to reduce the gradient the fastest.

    As an analogy, if we use voltage, as we increase the voltage gradient, between source and ground, sparks can jump further and further as the potential get higher, with these larger sparks reducing the potential.

    The question becomes what is causing the higher thermal gradient that drives the jet stream. The larger dipping of the jet stream is implicit of stronger cold being the push. The north pole was getting colder than the equator was getting warmer. The side with the potential drives the action, just like the spark comes from the source. In the summer, the opposite occurs as the equator drives the jet stream gradient to reduce potential.

    An interesting effect that might explain the polar surprise is connected to the earth's magnetic field.

    Surprisingly, even very small magnetic fields may affect the solubility of gases in seawater (solubility increasing with magnetic field (20-50 µT), expensive water preparations, increase the equilibrium amount of oxygen dissolved in water above its established, and rather low, equilibrium concentration [176]. Magnetic fields can also increase proton spin relaxation [623], which may speed up some reactions dependent on proton transfer.

    If the magnetic field was running weaker than normal, so gases become less soluble in the north polar sea water, then the water is able to freeze easier, allowing the pole to get colder faster. The solid state of water has less thermal capacity, than liquid water. With a higher magnetic field and more gases, super cooled water is a better heat sink than ice at the same temperature, because the supercooled liquid water can store extra energy as internal entropy.

    A weak field reverses this, causing ice to appear instead of super cool water, so the air above gets colder, faster, due to the loss of the heat sink.
     
  8. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    To Wellwisher:
    I could only wade thru first half of your post 4 nonsense. First I agree the jet steam is driven by thermal gradient in latitude. It is decreasing, not increasing as the arctic warms several times faster than mid latitudes. This means the circumpolar momentum is growing stronger. I. e. with less momentum the jet steam is more easily deflected - sections wanders North and South more frequently and farther from their averages path. - Why cold arctic air made streest in Atlanta GA, ice covered a few weeks ago.

    Your analogy is silly and backwards. Increasing gap voltage does make longer spark possible, but it the WEAKER jet stream (less West to East momentum) that make the North/ South wander increase.

    I make no comment on most of your post - did not read it. Hope it is not as silly as the first part.
     
  9. wellwisher Banned Banned

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    Let me explain the fluid dynamics with an analogy.


    If you took a glass of ice, sitting on a room temperature table, the cold from the glass will chill the adjacent air. This will cause convection or movement of the adjacent air, as the heavier cold air sinks downward to the table. If we added a circulation of air around the glass; jet stream analogy, the cold air sinking via convection would push on the circulation, via a perpendicular force, causing this jet stream analogy to push outward.

    I agree the faster the jet stream, any given perpendicular convection force will have less impact. However, for any given jet stream circulation speed, the stronger the perpendicular convection push, the deeper the dip.

    Say we took all the ice out of the glass, but maintained the jet stream analogy circulation. There is no reason for the circulation to deflect, since there is no perpendicular force. A deflection will appear only after we add ice, so the induced convection can add a force that is perpendicular; thermal gradient.

    Since the air around the ice filled glass is sinking, this is pulling an ever so slight vacuum above the glass; low pressure induction. This pulls in warmer surrounding air, at higher pressure, to replace the air that is leaving. The second part of the pole-equator thermal gradient is the convection from warm to cold, that is set up in response to the void left by the cold air convection. The ice makes this possible. This reaction will cause a force in the opposite perpendicular direction onto the jet stream, that causes the sine wave. This winter, the giant glass of polar ice is driving the convection that is deflecting the jet stream. The warm air is a reaction to fill the void.


    The second part of my discussion addressed a possible reason for this being so drastic this year. This analysis was based on data that shows that gases are more soluble in seawater under the influence of weak magnetic fields. The impact of gases dissolved in water is to make it harder for water to freeze. If the magnetic field gets weaker, for a few months, so less gas can dissolve in the liquid seawater, this will allow the polar water to freeze easier; the ice cap can expand even at higher temperature, due to less supercooling.

    As a home experiment, Say you take a bottle of beer and place it in the freezer. The next day, it might not be frozen. It can still be a liquid, that is supercooled due to the high level of CO2 in beer. Even though it is way below 0C, it is still a liquid. Once you open it and let out some of the gas, it may flash freeze, releasing heat of fusion.

    If we replace the beer with the same bottle of pure water, it will freeze much sooner and much closer to 0C, due to less dissolved gas. A lower magnetic field can cause polar freeze to occur sooner allowing the polar ice to expand.

    Liquid water has a higher thermal capacity than solid water or ice. Super chilled water, due to gases, can retain more heat value than the same amount of ice at the same temperature. This extra heat in the super chilled water; heat of fusion, can act as a moderator. If we change the super chilling floor by tweaking the gases with the magnetic field, one can tweak the winter jet stream. This explains why the north pole ice is getter larger as the earth appears to warm. The integration allows the earth to fix itself.I was never worried about the earth even if man bumbles.
     
  10. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    A very flawed one as neglect the reason why the jet stream is circumpolar - namely not a word about the Coriolis effect - your analogy has only radial flow: towards the top of the glass and away from th bottom of the glass. - not an analogy to the jets stream at all !
    I read that far this time - Saw how wise I was not to have read most of your prior post - magnetic fields make essentially no force on gases. Your just piling more invented BS on top of the old. Also a uniform magnetic field would not even make a noticeable force on an iron atom. On the spatial scale of atoms, the earth's magnetic field is extremely uniform - gradient less than gravity's force.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 28, 2015
  11. wellwisher Banned Banned

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    I did not mention the Coriolis effect, directly, but I simplify the discussion by using a circular movement of air around the glass of ice, as the cold air from the glass descended to the table and outward. I could have had the glass of ice is on a pedestal and the table moving in circular fashion to create a wind; lazy Susan. The cold air still pushes against the circulation in the same way.

    In the summer we have a hot glass of water on the table. The hot water will heat the air and cause it to rise. This also pulls a vacuum near the glass as the warmed air departs. Air is pulled in from higher toward lower pressure.

    Say we use both glasses at the same time, the cold air sinks and the hot air rises, but driven by their own energy. We will get the same circulation whether we use a cold glass, a hot glass or both, so it is not always easy to know which is leading. Thus allows the jet stream to always appear to sine wave as the glasses change each season.



    As far as the effect of magnetic fields on water, this is based on water science.

    Magnetic fields affect the infrared spectrum of water (showing its effect on water clustering) and these effects remain for considerable time after the magnetic field is removed, probably by their effect on the clathrate stability.

    X. Pang and B. Deng, Infrared absorption spectra of pure and magnetized water at elevated temperatures, Europhys. Lett.92 (2010) 65001.

    Surprisingly, even very small magnetic fields may affect the solubility of gases in seawater (solubility increasing with magnetic field (20-50 µT) [1492], probably by their effect on the clathrate stability.

    A. Pazur and M. Winklhofer, Magnetic effect on CO2 solubility in seawater: A possible link between geomagnetic field variations and climate, Geophys. Res. Lett.35 (2008) L167.

    The change in the magnetic field impacts the solubility of gases in water. Gases, in turn, have an impact on the internal structures of water. This has an impact on freezing and supercooling. What supercooling does is allow water to remain a liquid well below its normal melting point. The lack of supercooling cause the ice to appear at the normal melting point. Fluctuations in the magnetic field, with all else equal, can impact the amount of ice by tweaking the internal stricture of water to make freezing easier or harder. The magnetic fields also impact the IR spectrum. This shows how the internal structures of water begin to vibrate in certain ways, with these effects able to linger once set up.

    Most people assumed the polar ice should be gone by now using simplifying assumptions. But it is possible the earth has a magnetic trick up its leaves to counter the trend. I don't have direct proof but this is not publishing site but a discussion forum where people pose questions, introduce research, and give opinions.
     
  12. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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