Alderian-- I agree entirely. It's just that a couple of things sorta flashed at me. If I might simplify: I agree there's a sound logic to not letting a NAMBLA member babysit one's children. I do not agree that a proper logic exists regarding the impact of your suggestions regarding Satanism. But, truly, I'm well aware it could be something I'm simply missing. thanx, Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ------------------ We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)
Fyre-- Hmm ... was I deaf when you said it? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! It could simply be that you blinked. Or was it just a long, long time ago? (Sing it with me ... "Purple haze ....") Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! This is not a haiku. thanx, Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ------------------ We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)
tiassa: Let me comment on this and elaborate a bit for your sake. The case of the Satanists could not be made for the Satanists, per se, however, this is what I refer to as the mandate of common sense. I have read the writings of Anton LaVey, et al. But my personal experience is what guides me in situations like the babysitting Satanist. My direct experience with Satanists has usually been kids who call themselves that in order to rankle the adults and to appear iconoclast to their friends. Those kids are the ones who take drugs in an irresponsible manner i.e. ludibund usage and have a host of mental/emotional problems. They are certainly NOT healthy enough to watch my gerbil, if I had one. Their are at least two sub-groups of Satanists, one young and foolish, and two, old and foolish. Which ever group it is likes to rebel against the norm for they both have that in common. As I said, this has been my experience, and is anecdotal. I was deliberately chosing a group as hyperbole to get a point across. Sadly, that point was missed. I see one thing in the writings of Satanists and yet another in the people I have known who call themselves Satanists. This is the same reasoning that is BROAD when people ridicule Christianity. I felt my example was "safe" because if they do not cut Christianity a break when it comes to writings versus followers why should they give the Satanists a break. I was wrong. People are more inclined to give people more leeway when they follow the Devil. I am glad to know that, it reaffirms my thinking about society, in general, these sad days. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! I hope that explains why I chose the example that I did. I really do not wish to get into the abuses of Christianity for all of them were against the teachings themselves. There are just as many examples of Non-Christians abusing Christians as the other way around, both are wrong and against the teaching of love. In China today they are murdering Christians for their faith. There are many examples of the torture they are going through around the world. These are documented facts and are incontroverible. All the best, Adlerian
tiassa - **tiassa: "Or was it just a long, long time ago?" Yup.. Long ago, in a topic far, far away... **tiassa: "If I might simplify: I agree there's a sound logic to not letting a NAMBLA member babysit one's children. I do not agree that a proper logic exists regarding the impact of your suggestions regarding Satanism." Yes! This is what I was trying to get at with Adlerian: the subtle moral difference in regarding 'groups'. **tiassa: "This is not a haiku." Why not a haiku? Is it not fun to write one? Doh! I must die now. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! FyreStar
Ah.... Forget the groups and get to know the individual. If you can't, and you have a girl, you can let a NAMBLA member babysit her, right? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Ooops, maybe I'm behind the times here. Has NAMBLA expanded into female territory yet? Brian
Brian - **Brian: "Forget the groups and get to know the individual." See, you understand too! **Brian: "If you can't, and you have a girl, you can let a NAMBLA member babysit her, right?" Heh, good point Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! FyreStar
Tiassa, I was briefly skimming over your, gulp, defense of Satanists? I hope you don't think people into Satan are worthwhile folks?! I am right?!!! ------------------ "It was there, at the edge of the black abyss, that I found myself." -Patrick Ashley
Pashley!!!! Where you been, man? I've been holdin' down the fort against the godless heathens since you been gone! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Seriously, it's been interesting since you went to Disney. And yes, there has been some banter about Satanists being ok to watch kids. Yep, and the hits just keep on comin'! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Adlerian
Pash-- A) If I can't make certain statements about Christianity on the basis that it is unfair to apply such generalizations and their resulting judgemental aspects, then it is unfair to make such statements about Jews, Muslims, Buddhists ... all the way down to the Satanists and members of the Church of the Here and Now. B) This especially becomes important when one implies, as the passage I cited in my post does, that one should have their children removed from them on the basis of the religions of one's friends and associates. Now, to put the burden of this onto another religion: I had cheesy babysitters in my time; I call them "Stryper-Christians", whose faith entirely comes from I-don't-know-where. But I remember listening to them tell me how I was going to hell without Jesus; I remember how these kinds of people were common enough to trade stories about Jesus stories you and your friends heard from babysitters. (I must admit, though, that much of this approach usually comes from within the family, as has been my observation.) I also remember, when I was a kid, knowing that the only things anyone ever said about God meant two things: that I, personally, was horrendously wrong in my ways, and that I, personally, need be very afraid for my soul. Now ... you and I both know that only the stupidest people govern by that kind of fear, but just as I cannot say that "This person of Christian faith, here, will attempt to convert my children through fear," nor can I say that "This person ... will not." Thus, by my ethics, I technically owe it to a person of Christian faith to ignore that faith when enlisting them for a babysitting job. But, since my first goal as a parent should contain the peace of mind of my child, should I then put my foot down and say, "No Christians will babysit my children" in order to ensure that no narrowminded, fear-loving Christians don't walk through the door? The scary thing is that I shouldn't need to defend Satanists. I'm quite sure that the fear most people fear comes from the fact that they haven't a clue what Satanism is. Of the Satanists I ran with, only one lived up to his potential--he became a marketing executive. (That's a joke among former Satanists, that the best jobs are in marketing, personal-injury law, and agents for actors and athletes. In this case, it happens to be true.) But, to be honest, of the Satanic circle I recall, those whose whereabouts I know have done one of three things: returned to their former faith, moved on to a new faith, or else taken up the label of Atheist, having found no logic in religion whatsoever. Satanism seemed slightly juvenilistic to me; but I cannot recall ever being compelled toward "evil", per se. Certes, my political views were in conflict with Christianity, but that's part of the reason I left; hence, my views were already "evil". But inasmuch as I can tell from my time in the shadows, the tales of midnight sacrifice and Judas Priest-inspired gang rapes are generally founded in paranoia. Certainly they happen, but should I point out the Quaker household in which one of my closest friends was taught not to speak ill of her family, and thus her child-predator father is still among the public? Should I say that Christianity, then, endangers children? That's the degree of paranoia I'm chasing after here. My personal assessment of Satanism is that it's generally harmless; if the hedonisms of its fancy aren't carried out under a religious banner, they'll find philosophical or political guises and make their way into human conduct anyway. If I could have seen Satanism as anything but a buffer against even dumber ideas of faith, maybe I'd still wear the earthbound star. But it's hardly something to take one's children away for. That, and other unnecessary paranoias move me to Satanism's defense. If Satanism is a "problem", as such, it's the kind of problem that will only fester the more the culture tampers with it. I remember a Geraldo production in the late 1980's which "exposed" Satanism; the entire threat of Satanism consisted of betweeen forty- and one hundred-thousand people at the time. Geraldo, of course, expanded Satanism's rosters with his show, but the point is that Satanism generally goes unnoticed in its more positive aspects; for myself, having been one, the most notably positive aspect of Satanism was the fact that nobody could tell unless you did. thanx, Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ------------------ We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)
Adlerian, I hope there is no one here that would not have the common sense to let satanists be around their kids. ------------------ "It was there, at the edge of the black abyss, that I found myself." -Patrick Ashley
Tiassa: Thank you for clarifying your position. It would seem that I did hit the nail on the head when I said, "iconoclast". And the answer is still no that I wouldn't have someone babysit my kids or watch my hamster if they felt it was neccesary to "rankle" me as an adult by letting me know that they were a Satanist. When they were alone with me children what else might they do to "rankle" me? From such teenages we get the very worst of society. Remember Harris and Klebold? Both were Goths for the same reason that many teenagers were Satanists and the two groups aren't far apart. I know I have been to some Satanist websites just to see if the reasons that people were chosing Satanism years ago was the same. By and large they were the same reasons. And what was the general take on the Satanists that Heraldo Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!, exposed (as if I believe him)? All the best, Adlerian
Pashley: The paradox of common sense today is that very few people have it, making it uncommon indeed! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Adlerian
Alderian-- The first version of this wasn't going to end. I have no idea why, but it just wouldn't wrap up. You've got a point when you bring up Harris and Klebold, but it's a complex issue. In brief, though .... * Should I be rankled at the number of gold and silver crosses I see? After all, by stationing their necklace so that I can see it, they're declaring their faith in a God. To the more extreme end, I can say that there are only two reasons people knew I was a Satanist in high school: they assumed, or they asked. For the record, I have never known a Satanist to rankle anyone by declaring his faith so loudly that it lands on a general election ballot. Now that rankles! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! * You wrote, of two similar "groups": From such teenages we get the very worst of society. That's as deep and full as it is broad. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! * And I'm calling you on "groups". It's flat-out unfair, lest we regress to that shallow of generalizations about every "group" of people we can divide out. To wit: "I'm worried about my child ... she ran off with a religious cult. They believe in this all-powerful, all-seeing, invisible, vengeful god, and think they're on a crusade to destroy the god's enemies. It's changing my child's personality, changing his principles. It's making him into someone I don't even know! He talks and talks and its only riddles and gibberish. And whenever they get together, they light candles and eat flesh and drink blood together while praying to their god." Oh, someone, please save my baby .... Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! * .... I have been to some Satanist websites .... To be honest, I'm having difficulty at the moment pulling up past discussions at Exosci, but there's an old thread on here in which Flash (I think) posted the address of an allegedly Christian website, and people began arguing themselves senseless. It had to do with a site whose anti-gay position could be considered dangerous as a human toll, speak nothing of gay/straight principles. Even I would hope people wouldn't choose to let this represent Christ. But the fact is that any philosophy allows for certain types of philosophical perversion. There are self-assumed Christians out there who would make Christ himself cringe. Believe it or not, I'm told there's even--are you ready for this--peaceful Muslims. Can you beat it? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! (The above potshot at Islam was intended to make a rhetorical point; of course we recognize violence as the very visible minority in the Muslim world, and respect the Prophet's advisements toward peace. We now return to the regularly scheduled post ....) * By and large they were the same reasons. Does that tell you anything about the reasons? Perhaps that they have not been addressed? Cure the disease, and the symptoms usually go away. Usually. (I mean, I can't promise, but it works pretty well so far.) In general, though, I'm calling you on your own words. Your last post is standing on generalizations. Now, we all know that I have my own little difficulty with my own generalizations, in general. But I need to invite the Logic of your argument to the table: you're connecting generalized dots and trying to tell me what to see there, but it's just not coming out that way. thanx, Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ------------------ We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)
Let's see, I want my kid to be babysat by someone that does animal sacrifices, worships a figure of death and hate, rather than a person that worships a loving, kind God? I guess Voltaire was right, common sense is not so common! ------------------ "It was there, at the edge of the black abyss, that I found myself." -Patrick Ashley
Pash-- I believe you have demonstrated the point exactly. http://www.godhatesfags.com http://www.creator.org/main.html I might as well draw my image of Christianity from the above sites. After all, I would be almost as presumptuous as you. But now that I know a little more about your idea of what a Satanist is, I see there's no point in continuing. Therefore, I concede the point to you. As long as you choose to operate according to your own prejudicial definitions of groups of people, there's not much I can do to affect your opinion. By the way, if it matters to you at all: Real Satanists--those who study the philosophy and its offerings--have a term for what you describe: "Devil worship". That is, the people you're describing are worshipping the Devil of one specific church, that is, the Christian devil. These people may actually have about the same exposure to Satanism as your description implies of you. There are at least two major churches defining the Satanist movement: LaVey's American Church of Satan, and the Temple of Set. Perhaps more have sprung up in the meantime, but I've never heard of them. However, applying the same standard: given the nature of the two site links I've offered in this post, I wouldn't let the Pope babysit my kids. Mother Theresa--not a stinkin' chance. That is, if I apply the knowledge and judgement standard you're demonstrating. Follies. Follies. Even if they're ice follies, they're not orange-flavored. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! thanx, Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ------------------ We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)
pashley - You are still missing the real issue. I don't care which supposed deity the person claims to worship so long as they do not let that affect the responsible treatment of children. The job of a babysitter is to WATCH CHILDREN and MAKE SURE THEY DON'T HURT THEMSELVES. **When**, I ask you, did it become a forum for the sitter to spew off whatever beliefs they may have, religious or otherwise? Stop trying to find ways to validate your own subjective hatreds. **pashley: "Let's see, I want my kid to be babysat by someone that does animal sacrifices, worships a figure of death and hate, rather than a person that worships a loving, kind God?" Well, in response to your blatantly loaded rhetorical question, I'll ask you one. Which would you want around your children: one who kills animals or one who perpetuates the moral enslavement of human minds? **pashley: "I guess Voltaire was right, common sense is not so common!" You're right. Thats because people such as yourself and Adlerian allow irrational biases to hamper your judgement. FyreStar
tiassa: Yes, you did call me on my generalizations and I intend to answer. Although, I feel that is a little one-sided when I am asked to defend and explain and yet time and time again I ask thought-provoking questions that are ignored. I can only assume why. Ahem... Heraldo? Hint Hint! That sounds pretty much like an excuse if you will pardon the expression. It rankles you that Satanists don’t brag about their lack of faith in God in order to get elected? Perhaps you should tell them to run for office (or the border if you will Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ) or “identify” themselves so that they are at least honest. I mean if it is so “noble” to be a Satanist, why hide it? They hide because they love the dark or so I’ve heard. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Teenagers like Harris and Klebold and their ilk give us, what? The best of society? I have known many Satanists and all of them were emotionally disturbed. So I guess you could say that it is a generalization, however, I would deem it a statistical induction, you know, the kind all empirical judgment is based on. I am sorry but the stats back me up, not you. Please mention Geraldo’s findings here unless that is too complex as well. Groups have certain attributes that are common among the members. Are we agreed? I have no problem with naming ANY group, though, it appears you might. Like I said I have no problem naming ANY group but it seems you have. You seem to jump on Christians over and over again, or the rightwingers or the Reagan lovers, etc, etc, etc.... Yes, there have been many abuses by those who call themselves by the name of Christ. What of it? What good and noble and moral purpose does the Lord of Darkness serve, other than himself? Tell us of his love, his salvation, or anything that he offers that is good and kind and just. Please tell us. And then tell us of the rites of Satanism. Tell us of the animal sacrifice or the torture his followers feel as they are driven out of their minds. Please tell us. I Re he he he lly want to hear ALL about it. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Yes, there are abuses in Christianity. I freely admit that. But Christ’s teaching is far superior to the teaching of the dark lord, the lord of darkness, the lord of death. Yes, the disease may be cured and the symptoms will vanish. But the cure has been there all along. You cannot force people to “take the medicine” and as you know, some people would rather be sick. . Let me set this up in a syllogistic way then. 1. Satanists are emotionally disturbed. 2. Emotionally disturbed people very often commit acts of violence to get attention. 3. Therefore Satanists very often commit acts of violence to get attention. I can see that there are two groups of Satanists and one of them I have had no experience with as far as I knew. The second group moves silently through our society mentioning to none that they belong to the Dark Lord. Their purposes and goals unknown. They are silent. They hide their “true” identity for their own purposes. Now, Tiassa, expose their teachings and let me judge for myself as to whether one of them is fit to be alone with my child. I mean, really, all I have to go on is my experience and the sum that it tells me is that Satanists are evil and they love the dark. I say this not as a Christian but as a normal balanced male. If I am to learn otherwise you will have to teach me, else how will I improve? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! The original point, I reiterate, was that we should judge people by a normal standard as a dictionary does. After all, we all know that a dictionary is far less likely to be biased then a member of a group themselves. Yours, Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Adlerian [This message has been edited by Adlerian (edited May 23, 2000).]
Oh and Tiassa, while you are at it please do not "side-step" this as well. Perhaps my broad generalization has some merit? Or is this too complex to answer as well? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! This is from a recent poll, and hey, I am sure I would let a Satanist watch my child. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Please endarken us, please. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! thanx Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Adlerian [This message has been edited by Adlerian (edited May 24, 2000).]
I think you're nuts, Tiassa. You wouldn't entrust Mother Thresea to take care of your kids, but you would a Satanist? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ------------------ "It was there, at the edge of the black abyss, that I found myself." -Patrick Ashley
