Eunuchs and Native Americans - A Myth or Fact?

Discussion in 'Human Science' started by Joaquin, Jun 3, 2015.

  1. Joaquin Sleuth Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    387
    I've been trying to do some research on both recently.


    I've been told that Eunuchs in history have never gone bald due to being castrated. I know Varys of GoT was a Eunuch. I think maybe those types got castrated after they went bald i'm not sure.


    I also have heard Red Indians never grew facial hair or had any hair loss from their head.


    An odd thread but i'm wondering if anyone knows if this is a true.


    Alessandro Moreschi - the last recorded castrato



    He still has a juvenile hairline which sort've makes sense considering he was castrated young if it's entirely true about castration.

    The Castrati were men who were forcibly castrated at an early age in order to ensure that they would not experience the hormonal changes of puberty that lead to the lowering of the male voice. This meant that as adult men they sang like a modern soprano (they retained their boy soprano voices).

    After the Catholic Church asked that all nations ban the practice, Pope Leo XIII took the remaining Castrati into the care of the Sistine Chapel Choir to guarantee them a quiet life (at the time they had become the subject of ridicule). Moreschi is the only castrato to be recorded solo. In this recording he is over 50 years old and had lost much of the quality of his voice -- nevertheless the resulting recording is incredibly eerie.
     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. sculptor Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,466
    Wack yer nuts off to save your hair?
    Seems really crazy to me.
     
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. Joaquin Sleuth Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    387
    I guess the drawback is you can't have children and i would expect there'd be some body changes which could potentially be serious, or lead to other potential issues down the line.

    I have heard eunuchs can still manually get an erection through persistence and can supposedly still have sex. I don't know if that's true, though.

    All the castrato's today use falsettos as obviously it is not possible for them to be castrated legally.

    It wouldn't surprise me if Micheal Jackson was a eunuch. It seems like something he would have done to affect his vocal chords. It's hard to say as i've heard an eunuch speaking and he didn't really have as much of a high pitched voice as i would have assumed. I guess maybe it's only noticeable with singing and vocal work.

    It's a drastic measure to keep your hair if you have MPB. I assume it would stop it but it hasn't been entirely proven.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2015
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,087
    "Red Indians"?

    Look, I'm not really up on the correct terms one uses to identify genetic or ethnic sectors of the body of humanity... but Red Indians strikes me as a little archaic. If the object is to point out the negative correlation between baldness and testosterone, great. I think that's been kicking around for a while. Just mind your terminology. I've been sometimes too quick to call some things deliberately offensive.
     
  8. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,087
    And, while we're at it, Varys was a fictional character.
     
  9. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    54,036
    There is a connection between testosterone levels and hair loss, so it makes sense if you lose your balls, your hair will remain.

    The thing about Native Americans is probably more of a genetic thing.
     
    sideshowbob likes this.
  10. Joaquin Sleuth Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    387
    Of course Varys is a fictional character, lol. It's just a little odd a bald person is a eunuch going by certain opinions.


    I think you're perhaps being overly sensitive in me describing native americans using the very old term red indians. A lot of old historians still mention the native americans as red indians.


    I think with native americans it's obviously more of a genetic thing and their diet would have helped outside of eating any animal fats. Vitamin b-12, iron, and zinc can only help their manes.


    The thing is with eunuchs is that if after puberty they were castrated then they would still continue to receive testosterone from the adrenal gland. A very tiny amount however. I think they still ger an adrenalin rush from the tiny amount of testosterone. Although, the male hormone testosterone is produced by the testes. So, I assume they'd keep their hair.


    I'm not sure if it's entirely true as I've not really seen enough evidence to support this in it's entirety. It's just speculation for now unless a modern day eunuch comes along and perhaps proves the assumption right. I assume most if not all transsexuals go though the castration process.


    I think it's only legal today for chemical or surgical castration unless you have prostate cancer, or having a sex change, or are a bad person like a paedophile. I don't know I assume there's a lot of other reasons be it health reasons or something else. It's just what I've read on the internet.


    In this day and age I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if people would consider this to save their hair. If it means that much to them I say why not it's their choice. If they don't want sexual intercourse again or to be able to have children, or more children then I think that's fine if there's not health implications which I assume their will be. Also their partner would not like their decision I guess so it would be a tougher decision.


    A lot of bald men I've talked to have said if they could get their hair back they would in a heartbeat. I think some are happy and have accepted it as it's nature. I don't think it's good to fight nature, though. If hair is what makes a them happy I say let them do it but it may be a problem they can't fix.


    I've also heard eunuchs live 19 years longer than non-eunuchs. I have also heard they live 12 years longer, too. So, i'm not sure if there's any truth to it.

    I guess an image-orientated world where looks do matter to a lot of people if not most people then it wouldn't surprise me if quite a few people would think of it. As drastic as it may be.

    I mean the celebrities like Brad Pitt, Johnny Depp, David Beckham, Al Pacino,...etc.. have resorted to hair transplants where they still may have to have a regime to keep the hairs from shedding depending on the type of procedure.





    .
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2015
  11. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

    Messages:
    24,690
    I have encountered this too. It's been attested that in some cases, harem girls were able to perform intercourse with their castrated guards.

    I don't know how reliable these sources are. However, my experience as a dog breeder suggests that it might be true. Two of our castrated male dogs were able to attain erections and mount the females in heat. The geometry of their anatomy resulted in their attainment of a "tie" (the penis cannot be pulled out of the vagina until the erection shrinks), which lasted for at least five minutes, about the same as the intact males.
    Well then, they are not castratos.
    It's unusual, but hardly rare, for a man to be able to sing in a register that is normally the province of women and boys. Michael Jackson's tonal range was no higher than Robert Plant and many other male rock stars.
    Females produce testosterone too. The susceptibility to baldness is not just a matter of hormones. It also has a lot to do with XY versus XX chromosomes.
     
  12. Joaquin Sleuth Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    387
    Fraggle Rocker, post: 3303757, member: 7718"]I have encountered this too. It's been attested that in some cases, harem girls were able to perform intercourse with their castrated guards.

    Well then, they are not castratos.




    They still call themselves castratos today if you take a look.

    Whether they're castratos or not is irrelevant in real terms as they still call themselves castratos, lol.

    I think many of them could be considered
    endocronilogical castrati.

    Radu Marian was one of them and many others in history. In some rare cases no hormonal changes made a person's voice any deeper and didn't break after puberty.


    FPHL is to do with the male hormone testosterone they produce but it smaller amounts than a male. I.E. Androgen hormones (testosterone, androsteinedione, and DHT). These male hormones normally occur in small amounts in women.

    Androgenic alopecia is not the main cause in women's hair loss as it is with males. Female pattern hair loss is usually diffuse thinning.

    Diffuse thinning can be caused by many different things pregnancy, menopause, presence of ovarian cysts, birth control pills with a high androgen index, and polycystic ovary syndrome. Thyroid disorders, anemia, chronic illness, and some medications can also cause female hair loss.

    androgenic alopecia and diffuse thinning are not the same thing. Women usually experience diffuse thinning and dermatologists like to call it FPHL and not FPB anymore. Testosterone belongs to a class of male hormones called androgens. Androgens cause the dermal papilla in scalp hair follicles to release various chemicals (one example of which are the members of the TGF-beta family of hormones) which migrate to the rest of the hair follicle, and then stunt their growth.

    Every woman produces a small amount of testosterone from their ovaries and adrenal gland unless they've had their ovaries removed for whatever reason.

    I think the testosterone plays a big part in baldness but genetics play a big part, yes.


    In a lot of cases antiandrogens help lots of people against baldness.


    Also, this is utter nonsense.

    Nöthen and colleagues say they've found a gene variation that may explain some cases of male pattern baldness (androgenetic alopecia), the most common form of hair loss, which is related to the male sex hormones. The suspect gene variation sits on the X chromosome, which is handed down to men by their mother.27 May 2005


    I know many who on their mother's side and history have no baldness present. Or many who have baldness stemming from their grandfather on their mother's side. Or even from their grandmother's father,...etc... It's not always black and white with genetics.


    While the primary baldness gene is on the X chromosome, which men get only from their mothers, other factors are also in play. The hereditary factor is slightly more dominant on the woman's side, but research suggests that men who have a bald father are more likely to develop male pattern baldness than those who don't.

    It makes no difference as you can follow both your mother and father. It's utter nonsense as they still don't understand how the DNA is involved with chromosome 20 called 20p11. That's the region on the chromosome 20 which they think causes baldness but they have yet to fully provide the results. It's what they say but it's a myth the x chromosome causes baldness it's just from a variation from the mother's side which cannot be helped anyway. It is a factor but not a cause. It might be down to faulty hair-making progenitor cells, too.

    I'm experiencing hair loss because i have TE. Telogen Effluvium which has occurred two months after major surgery. Which is rapid hair shedding. I've added 30 mg Zinc, Biotin 10,000 mcg, Iron 14 mg, Vitamin b-12, Copper, and I will add a DHT blocker eventually after the next 3 months period is over and I see no changes.

    Dutasteride and Finesteride are both 5-alpha-reductase inhibitors which primarily are focused on treating different things than male pattern baldness but lower DHT levels which many believe cause hair loss. The 5a-reductase type 2 enzyme is generated inside the dermal papillae of hair follicles. I think many use these but both have risks and side effects like lots of medications. Some people get good results some do not. Eunuchs do not need to lower DHT levels like Dutasteride does by 90 percent. Testosterone suppresses the growth of scalp hair just like DHT, although at a much slower rate. A very small amount of Dut and Fin is used to treat hairloss as I think the risk factors outweigh the rewards. If so then it makes sense they experience no hair loss and that's a ''cure'' be it perhaps a drastic one.

    I have tried Nizoral which is an anti-dandruff shampoo which has Ketoconazole in it which antiandrogenetic properties through an unknown mechanism. It was tested on mice wih good results. It does help I've noticed less shedding even with diffuse thinning. I see very little shed hairs than before.


    The cure may be in something which is used to treat something else. Or a combination of certain treatments may help. I know many use the Big 3 now to help treat MPB like Nizoral, Minoxidil, and Finesteride with differing results.


    It's hard to fight against nature. I doubt it will ever be cured and some may think it doesn't need to be. I think there's a possibility with advancements in science. The one's which mainly treat hair loss now are primarily focused on treating other health issues.

    There's a lot more to it than due to premature entry of catagen due to androgens. Scientists haven't figured it all out yet and aren't even close to it. In time with advancements there's just going to be more progression in time hopefully.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2015
  13. Joaquin Sleuth Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    387
    I think if a balance can be achieved with a ''medication'' which could slow the process down dramatically over a period of time say around 10 years or more. If you put all the factors into play then there'd have to be more research and the statistics would have to be looked at more thoroughly. I doubt an accurate time frame could be put on how a medication would work given the efficacy of it until it was rigorously tested. In that time they'd need guinea pigs to test out new types of medications as usual.


    I say that would be as good as a cure if you could take a pill over a period of time to stop the process with more conclusive success than something like dut or fin.


    I think nutritional changes would only help the cause and less metabolic stress.


    Genetics obviously play a big part but so do many other factors, too.


    The ''cure'' may be hair cloning/stem cells which may be the closest thing to one.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2015
  14. Stoniphi obscurely fossiliferous Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,256
    I shave my head daily, look very much like Uncle Fester, my avi here. I have experienced a touch of acinar adenocarcinoma that resulted in my becoming a chemical castrato for the last 2 & 1/2 years.

    My head hair did not change that I noticed, but my body hair pretty much all fell out. Lost muscle mass, cannot regain it either. Have added belly fat, lost overall tone and vital capacity. No erections at all, and no interest in sex at all, and I have a lovely affectionate wife close at hand that would really like it if I rediscovered that stuff. I must do daily exercise with a pump to maintain the affected tissues health and flexibility as well as taking Cialis daily to maintain the muscle and nerve health. Still neither interest or ability, however, even with direct stimulation. Hopefully I will recover as the chems' effect fade, though this has given me an interesting perspective.

    "First Nations", "Natives", "Native Americans", "Original Inhabitants" and the like are acceptable terms, "Red Indians" is an insult. (I am part Cherokee, my father was tribal Story Teller of an area Ojibwe First Nation until his death)
     
  15. Joaquin Sleuth Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    387
    I've been called spic many a time and i don't care. That is racist, and the argument that ''Redskin'' is also a racist is just PC propaganda. It was never considered racist years ago, and the team has had it for years. So, when someone mentions the ''Redskins'' be it a child who supports them. Are they considered racist, too?

    This is modern day propaganda by the PC crowd. You can attack a person who is calling something as they've read it, and most are not using it as a racial slur. ''Redskins'' is a racial slur now, so if a child says ''Redskin'' then some politically correct people will consider them racist, or have adopted racist traits from their parents.

    Bear in mind it was used in old history books and is rarely used today. There's actually not much information on it just speculative opinion. Red facepaint was used with native americans.

    And I spoke to a native american recently and he had no problem with it. If i'd even call one ''Indian'' to some it may be considered an insult. It's a modern day insult if it is due to long bitter past involvements due to Columbus, and most american historical ''fact'' is not true ''fact'' but some of it purely speculation. One group may consider it racist, the other group may not. Either way it is not a true racist word that has been used, and if it was that bad then old historians would've been overly scrutinized for using it decades ago.

    If you open up an old history book then you will find this term being used. It is only considered not PC now than back then.


    You never really hear anything said about a different race being quite disrespectful to a white person, do you? I'm a true spaniard and i have experienced true racism. A minor reference from 100's of years ago wouldn't make me bat an eyelid.


    It's very easy for another race to scream racism as they cannot move on from historical issues. It's a crutch to use in modern day society as a defense mechanism. The past has gone. It's much more closer to the heart to a black person than to an indian, though.


    I've been called a spic and chulo many times, so yes i believe that is racist. Calling someone ''Injun'' is racist. But, if someone calls somebody red indian then i do not believe that's racist in the slightest. The argument could be this generation has been overly sensitisized to certain things, but bat their eyelids to other things like violence in the media.


    For a child who's in the library and reads an old book phrasing a red indian and he goes outside and mentions it. Is he racist? Even if he isn't using it as a racial term it's just what he's read. So, deep down then he's racist, right?



    Either way i don't care enough to debate this further. If you think that's true racism then i feel sorry for you because you haven't experienced true racism. The native americans have never been ''red'' skinned but often used red facial paint. It was just an old term and may be considered racist today because it is rarely used. And redskin is just being overly politically correct. Why wait til now to change things? Attack the owner if you please but don't attack the fans who use the name ''Redskin''.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2015
  16. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,057
    Racism is not in the eye of the beholder.
     
  17. Joaquin Sleuth Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    387
    It's funny when a pasty white man deems something to be racist when they are not attached in any way to a different race.

    Racism will always be over-scrutinzed and over-emphasized over even minor remarks.

    You don't hear the racism comments in the media about a person using racism toward a white man, though.
    Or an indian being racist to an african man. It happens but you never hear it as much as it's not emphasized in the media.

    It's just funny a white man is so concerned with a word which is could be borderline racist depending on the opinion of a group or person.


    And the worst thing you can do is criticize immigration policies especially in some countries. If you have any opinion based on another race you are instantly deemed racist and targeted perhaps by a pro-crowd. Even though it's opinion and everyone should have some freedom of speech.

    After all it is diversity which makes things ''interesting'' isn't it? Is it so interesting when a race often wants to fleece an economy and insult a person categorically using radicalized old-fashioned idealogies with no rhyme or reason?


    Ok, this isn't a race debate.


    On the hair topic i'm actually not sure about the whole no facial hair and no hair loss thing considering everything put together now.


    I have learned now that 1/3 of of the american indian DNA is west Eurasian. I think most people associated native americans and the like with people of mexican descent.

    But going deeper to the ''full bloods'' who aren't extinct might give the answer through their genetics.

    I know many in Mexico don't speak spanish but aren't true ''full blooded'' by any strentch. Most are of mixed heritage. A lot of languages are spoken in Mexico. Most are just part spanish and also have eurasian roots.

    It's rare to ever speak to a full blood and most full bloodsactually may be part eurasian due to the native americans crossing the bering strait and history stretching further back. A possibility.

    The american indian in this picture i believe has eurasian roots.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!




    Perhaps no one is a true ''full blood'' as it would be difficult not to see patterns changing through a bloodline over such long periods of time. I don't know enough about divergent patterns in genetics and many other additions to it so i can't make any opinion on it.

    I have heard indians and europeans share a gene that plays a significant role in coding for lighter skin. I guess they can only go on demographic history of a population and ancestry. I'm not entirely sure it's accurate as even known scientific sites have false information. It's hard to get true accurate information now without subjective based opinion coming into it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2015
  18. Dr_Toad It's green! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,527
    Man, what are you on fire about? I've got some Choctaw in my woodpile, and I'm less hairy than some folks.

    So what? I've got mean-assed French, Irish and Austrian as well. So what?

    Why do you want to start a meaningless argument, beginning with, "It's hard to get true accurate information now", to establish your false premise. Now you can disagree with any answer you get.

    Bullshit. Vayese!
     
    Stoniphi likes this.
  19. Joaquin Sleuth Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    387

    And you have anything to bring to the discussion but to insult another person's opinion? And how could i disagree with any answer i got. New sources of information come out all the time and a lot is missed. Someone may have alternative information.


    It's ok because you obviously have nothing to say, or have anything interesting to add. It's interesting how genetics may corroborate with different demographics and historical events.


    Why don't you crawl back into your hole, you miserable toad.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2015
    timojin likes this.
  20. timojin Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,252
    Your post of of interest and informative to me.

    I suspect the Red man or the Mexican, South American Indian, have not inter bread as the European . I am of the opinion the white man with a bold crown is decedent of different stock if early man then the man which crossed the Bering strait.
     
  21. Dr_Toad It's green! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,527
    Good lord. Idiocy. And you survived long enough to learn to type?

    "Inter bread." Are you and your cretin friend robots, or simply so impaired that your spell checker rules your tiny world? I have no words to express how fucking stupid you are. Please, never breed.
     
  22. Joaquin Sleuth Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    387
    It's just a lot of speculation through the internet. I only took notice into it when a friend of mine named Taco (nickname he uses online) mentioned something and he's also mexican himself. I then tried looking and delving into more deeply but found mixed information which is just purely speculation.

    I've found some ''facts'' but i am unsure these days on what sites are showing accurate information on statistics. I also looked up information on blood types, lifestyles, and diet of these people.




    I'm not 100 percent entirely sure about the bering strait just some information i've read on it. Just purely speculation.


    The DNA apparently is accurate, though. You will have to quote me on the sources however. I will post some links if i'm allowed.


    I just think the key attribute to find out a way to stop MPB could be in gene cloning. I feel however the information may not be quite there for stem cell/hair cloning right now, though. We may be 10 to 20 years off.


    There is also something i learned about a new medicine which is currently behind close doors which is more safe than the other alternatives on the market to combat hair loss.

    The science behind it is very interesting.
     
  23. Dr_Toad It's green! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,527
    Yeah, sure. Do go on..
     

Share This Page