As for being let into heaven, since when is heaven a city sitting in the clouds? People describe heaven as a magically wonderful place where you can do and have anything you want and it can even be whatever you want it to be. Adding the little concept of time into all this, wouldn't the average human get bored of it after an expanse of millions upon millions upon millions of years? Think of it this way. Your lifespan is around 100 years. In heaven, your lifetime (as the bible indirectly says you have one) would be far greater than ,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999, 999 years. Think that sounds scary? Ha-ha, don't stop there. Keep on rolling the numbers, you haven't seen anything yet. But then again, if time IS an illusion that applies only to the physical universe, then wouldn't that mean that you'd be stuck in a timelessness world. What a perfect paradise that is, no time. Try and grasp that concept of no time. No time is the same as infinity in reverse. If Heaven is the ultimate relaxation spot for those who were good on earth, how could they enjoy it if there was no time to enjoy it in? Besides, if God were to ask me that question, I could easily say: "You created me, I was origenally from you, I am of you so I belong to you." If God is this all forgiving force that is perfect wouldn't that mean that anything less would mean that God would be imperfect? Wouldn't revenge and anger (emotions that symbolize negativity - things Christians relate to the devil) bring God down to the level of the Devil (which seems to be the opposite of God, who is Perfection; which would mean that the Devil is ultimate Imperfection). If God is perfect and God loves us no matter what, then wouldn't that mean that God would still accept us into heaven no matter what we do during our lifetimes?
ISDAMan and Tony, After more than twelve days of looking forward to a response from one or both of you, I am inclined to ask again: How would you answer the question? Thanks, Brian
Tony, If your God has so much grace - why was this bloodshed necessary in the first place? THAT'S what doesn't make sense! Why does this make sense to Christians? It might have made sense if God had suffered physical incarnation at least once per generation to speak to us (since most of us have such a difficult time listening to the God/dess within), and tell us what we need to know to achieve spiritual and physical health, happiness, and prosperity for all while alive on this earth, and to continue in this positive direction upon leaving our earthly bodies. But the idea that we need to know and believe that one particular person was God incarnate (and there were many who claimed this), and accept that he died for our sins, in order for us to be "saved" - that's just ridiculous to me! How are we as fallible humans supposed to know which of the hundreds or thousands who claim to be "The Savior" is telling the truth? Why would God do it this way? ------------------ www.indigenousrocks.com
Xeno, Three words for ya....ALIENS ARE DEMONIC. MC, Ok, I read most of the site that you posted. I must admit, not being a bible thumper myself that I can not contest most of what is said on this site. Some of it I can contest, as I thought it was very clear that a message or two was misconstrued. But for the most part, in a general sense, I find that the contentions are trivial and mean absolutely nothing when compared to the overwhelming abundance of truth in the gospel. See, the Bible is a weird thing. It's not just a book, it's a phenomenon in itself. I have experienced this phenomenon first hand, in that all of the times that I tried to read the Bible before I "got saved", it sounded pretty greek to me. I just really didn't get a lot out of it at all. I wasn't sure if it was the language or the message or me that was the problem, but I just didn't get that much out of it. But it says somewhere in the Bible itself that if you do not seek the truth in it with the guidance of sincere and humble intent, and the guidance of the Holy Spirit, that there is no way you will understand the truth in it. Would you try something for me? Try to look at the word with the intention (now really pay attention to YOUR INTENTIONS, as this is not easy to do or to control) of finding truth instead of with the intention of finding error. This will make all of the difference in the world. It's really weird, in that it really makes a huge difference in understanding. The same verses that I read before that I got absolutely nothing, or at best something trivial or superficial out of before, all of a sudden just spoke to my soul. And I found that the Bible can actually speak right to your heart. It's almost like it's somewhat subjective depending upon who is reading it and why, and that is basically how it is explained in the teachings themselves. I guess what I'm saying is that if you're looking for contentions, you will find them. If you are looking for truth, you will find it. MC, what are you REALLY looking to find when you read the Bible? ------------------ You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.
Lori, To be perfectly honest, I haven't ever just sat down and read the bible. So I really haven't been looking for anything in particular. I do intend to try to read it again someday, but haven't gotten that kind of time yet. It's not exactly an easy read, y'know!? I'm waiting for a decent "plain english" translation to come out...is there a good one of those out yet? I haven't been keeping up to date. What you say makes sense, about you finding what you want in the book, but that's true about just about everything!! So basically, for me to find that the bible is true, I already have to think it is?!?!? Doesn't that defeat the whole purpose? Doesn't it seem like a book written by God himself would be powerful enough that a middle-of-the-roader like I used to be would get the message loud & clear?? I started to read the bible as a young teen, and it made no sense to me whatsoever, it just was confusing as heck, even the parts that I thought I understood seemed inconsistant and weird. I guess I expected more out of a book that was supposedly written by the most powerful being that ever did or ever will exist. I mean, wouldn't you expect a book written by a perfect being to be a perfect book? Why should there be any errors, any inconsistencies AT ALL?? Human error? Then doesn't that throw the rest of the "data" in question?? I have also been exposed to bits & pieces of the bible here and there throughout my life; in addition to my own failed attempt at reading it, my Grandma used to read some of it to me occasionally, I have been to church a couple times with friends, and you find bible quotes everywhere in this country, so I get the general gist of the story. But (again) to be fair, I've never gone cover to cover. There are some great stories in there, I must admit. But there are some great stories in other pantheons/mytical structures that are just as meaningful to me, so I guess that doesn't say much. I guess what I've gathered though, is that even though there are errors and inconsistencies in the bible, that's okay with you? And I'm not trying to trap you or something here, I'm genuinely trying to figure out what "makes a Christian tick" so to speak. What do you think though, about this website's claim that the "trinity" was an invention? I found that to be the MOST fascinating thing in that whole website. The minor contradictions (the geneology, minor details, etc) I don't care much about, but this really seems like a biggie to me. I mean, it is really the kingpin to the whole Christian faith!! Don't you agree? What's your gut reaction to that one? What's your logical reaction? Any idea what happened there? That one point right there is the biggest motivation I have actually ever had to read the OT & NT, it's really got my curiosity going now. I wish I knew greek so I could read the originals!!
MoonCat, Yes, it's a biggie, all right! I've also read the same thing in "The Gods of Eden", by William Bramley, which states: <font color = "red">Many of the changes and deletions to the New Testament were made by special church councils. The editing process began as early as 325 A.D. during the First Council of Nicea, and continued well into the 12th century. For example, the Second Synod [church council] of Constantinople in 553 A.D. deleted from the Bible Jesus's references to "reincarnation" - an important concept to Jesus and his early followers. Later, the Lateran Councils of the 12th century added a tenet to the Bible that was never taught by Jesus: the concept of the "Holy Trinity." The Christian church did not limit itself to changing a few ideas, it also rejected entire books. The church destroyed many documents and records which contradicted the radical changes that were made to Christine doctrine by these councils. Fortunately, the original writings which survived the editing process still offer valuable clues and insights into the life of Jesus.</font> When they go around liberally changing what was originally there, you really have to wonder about the validity of the whole package, don't you think? ------------------ www.indigenousrocks.com
Searcher, Mooncat and Brian, I am sorry for not responding to each of you sooner. I am very sick at the moment and have not the time to do so, I understand your questions and will get back to each of you as time allows. Again, sorry if it looked like I was ignoring them. Allcare Tony
Tony, Take as much time as you need, bub. Get well. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Tony, I'm very sorry to hear you're under the weather - nothing serious, I hope? Take your time and get well, and I hope to see you back soon. Blessings. ------------------ www.indigenousrocks.com
I cannot entirely explain the bible myself. I have read it and gathered insights from it. When I have read parts of the new testament, I have found that a lot of it makes sense. The problem was that I found it ridiculous as to the magnitude of it being related to the afterlife. --------------------------------------------- "Three words for ya....ALIENS ARE DEMONIC." Lori, :confused What was that supposed to mean?" [/B] --------------------------------------------- "I mean, wouldn't you expect a book written by a perfect being to be a perfect book? Why should there be any errors, any inconsistencies AT ALL?? Human error? Then doesn't that throw the rest of the "data" in question??" MC, I have to agree on you with that. The bible was obviously written by people so there's bound to be errors in it. --------------------------------------------- I find that the bible speaks more of fundamentals for society than it does for spirituality.
Hi Searcher, Thanks for the get well Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! see I'm feeling better already. A fairly nasty chest infection with lots a green stuff...yucko Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Anyway back to where we left off. Thanks for the compliment. But nope I'm not a pulpit guy. I don't have any theological or seminary training either, I'm just your Mr Joe average with the wife, two kids and a mortgage who loves his Lord and Saviour. No illusions of grandeur or "divine" calling here apart from that of being a good servant, husband, father and provider. Man alive I could really get on a roll with this one. Essentially I'm not much different than the guy you probably walk past in the shopping centre and never notice. Right there with ya, Jesus was and still is my favourite. I get where your coming from with the easier thing but I see it a bit differently. According to all accounts in the bible Jesus had to go through everything that we go through in order to be able to understand what being human was like. When it says everything I think it means everything and not just something’s. There are some versus I could quote you on this but you probably know them already. Personally I couldn't imagine serving a God that doesn’t understand what its like to be human, who doesn’t know what its like to fear, doubt, cry, laugh, hurt, love and everything else that makes us what we are. I know Jesus does understand me because He lived a life like we do. He had His highs and lows, in the garden He even doubted His ability to face that which would happen to Him at the cross. He had some amazing things happen during His ministry but all throughout He still needed the faith of a child in the Father. To believe even without seeing that His Father would never let Him down. Remember when you were a young girl and in your eyes Daddy could do no wrong? He was your pillar of strength, your tower of refuge, he was the one that watched over you, corrected you, sat with you, read with you, sat you on his knee and spoke softly to you. I'm writing this as I watch my son and daughter play together and I hope and pray that these things, these sorts of memories are the ones which lead them to understand when they grow older how the eternal Father loves them. I hope they understand and glimpse in me by the way I live before them the character and nature of the Father towards them. This is what Jesus went through like all of us, He had to grow and learn and understand just what the Fathers nature and character was towards Him as an individual and towards mankind collective. I think and know from what I have learnt that Jesus underwent the same, exact same things we do. And having gone before us He has provided a way for us to have the same relationship with the Father that He had. A relationship of direct communion with the Father. Direct communion, a relationship which is far greater, much richer and deeper than direct communication. Communion which involves understanding, involves intimacy, involves more than just speech and communication. Its the reason that I can call Jesus the lover of my soul, its the reason that I have trouble trying to explain things that God has shown me, they are so deep, so full, so rich and fragrant that words of communication fail to bring forth the fullest understanding. Could this happen with a God that is not, or has not been human? Could this happen with a Lord who has no understanding of me as a human? Could this happen if that Lord had not made straight the way of salvation so that I as a fallen man could find salvation, that I as a fallen man could grow in my communion, grow in my love, grow in my understanding of all that my Father is, to know the very character and nature of God Almighty? Mere ignorant mortals, I am mortal just like you Searcher. But I have decided not to live in ignorance, I have decided to not get caught up in religion, I have decided not to just look at the questions, I have decided to find the answers to my questions, I have decided to follow and love my Lord. I have decided to partake of His grace. I have decided to make my eternal decisions in the here and now and not the there and then. I have decided to believe! Sorry I went a bit off track there. Sorry my friend I'm not a full bottle on the lady, but she does sound amazing. (reminds me of my wife). I get the feeling you like what I write from the last line above. I don't really set out to try and speak a lot of things, I basically say what’s on my heart and what I think the Lord would have me share. I do earnestly hope that people see more than just the words I type, so often its difficult to express the deepest heart felt feelings and knowledge in the English language. Maybe French would be better, that is by far a more passionate language. Wow here am I lamenting how hard English is and it just occurred to me that the poor old guttural Germans must find things pretty sad Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Ever heard the German equiv of I LOVE YOU compared to the French? Think about it, its kinda funny. Getting back to the topic though, I think I sense a bit of a sexual equality thing here. Could be way wrong on that though, yeah even today women cop a hard deal even in developed countries. Sterotypical images we have are generally based on century's old skills possesed. Tell you what I would not like to be a woman and living in Pakistan at the moment. They don't get treated much better there that they did 2000 years ago when Jesus was alive. Its amazing when I read the accounts in the Gospels of how Jesus treated women compared to the majority of men in His time. The woman by the well - John 4:7, the woman with the issue of blood - Mark 5:25, the woman from Canaan - Matthew 15:22, not to treat them as mere objects of pleasure - Matthew 5:28, the woman who anointed Jesus - Luke 7:37, the woman as a person responsible - Luke 15:8, the woman caught in adultery - John 8:3, the woman as the bearer of life - John 8:3. All these women were and many more were treated as people by Jesus. He cared not for gender, He cared not for social standing, He cared not for race, Jesus cared for the soul of the living person that stood before Him. Man, woman, child, foreigner, politics, social standing, dress, image, mattered not, what did matter was eternity, and where that person would stand in it. Well I'll leave it at this for now. Allcare Tony Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Hi Brian, Sorry for taking so long to get back to you on this one. From “Overview” WHO ARE YOU? This event occurred half my lifetime ago when I was 17. To record the details of the experience in writing does not do it true justice. The closest thing that I can parallel it to would be what many may refer to as a near death experience, however I can not call it this as at no point did I even consider that I had died or was going to die. This event took place in a remote central NSW town called Seals Rocks during a surfing safari with some friends. I had been surfing and had just hopped out of the water when I became violently ill, nausea, vomiting, dizzy, shaking and weak. After I had stopped being sick I managed to compose myself, change out of my wet suit into dry clothes and sit in the front seat of the van to try to get some rest. The next thing I recall was that I found myself (and I mean myself in the real sense, as real as typing this record) in a tunnel experiencing the sensation of falling or sliding in a forward direction. The walls of this tunnel were rainbow coloured like oil on water and were moving past at high speed. As this experience began a voice repeatedly echoed a question "WHO ARE YOU? WHO ARE YOU? WHO ARE YOU?" needless to say that I felt very anxious. All my senses were working in overdrive and the sensation of falling increased, it felt as though I was going faster and faster with the question "WHO ARE YOU? WHO ARE YOU? WHO ARE YOU? pressing in on me as I answered "I'm Tony, I'm Tony, I'm Tony". While this was happening I was trying to reach out and slow myself down against the walls of the tunnel, this was futile for no matter how close the walls looked I could not reach them and the speed and the question kept on and on. I can’t put a time span against these events everything seemed to be flashing past yet the tunnel went on and on. Time did not seem relevant in that place, I would measure it more in its intensity than anything else a relentless intensity which grew and grew and grew. Suddenly I found myself motionless in a large round room with an old wooden table and chair, oil coloured walls and the question "WHO ARE YOU? WHO ARE YOU? WHO ARE YOU?" echoing in my head. The intensity was relentless I had reached the end of my rope, fallen off and was screaming "I'M TONY, I'M TONY, I'M TONY, and sobbing, but who are you? At this point the repeating question stopped. I looked up from the table at which I was seated and there before me was an opening door, beyond the door there was brilliant white light. When the door was fully opened I could make out the form of a man wearing a long single piece garment. The light stopped at the doorway and did not enter the round room, neither did the figure. (The effect was similar to that created when you face towards the sun and hold your hand in front to shadow your eyes, the intensity of the light behind your hand causes it to appear as a shadow in front of you with a distinct outline). The figure before me answered my question: "I AM THE ONE WHO HELPS THOSE WHO HELP THEMSELVES" I immediately found myself back in the front seat of the van. I firmly believe that on that day I stood before Jesus, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. The question that was asked of me "WHO ARE YOU?" was not the question of "What's your name?" It’s a question that cuts through bone and flesh to the very heart of a man HIS SPIRIT, and asks the real question: Who are you in the eyes of GOD? When asked that question what answer can you give? At that point in my life I had no other answer but my name, a name that was foreign to God. I considered this and ask myself if I died today and the same question was asked what would my answer be? From that point on I searched for and I believe found God. In the Gospels of the Bible I found recorded the history of a man and God, the words of Jesus became alive to me and are etched on my heart. I came from a back ground with minimal religious influence, my path of discovery occurred between God and me through the bible without a great deal of outside influence from a church or religion. Did I get “saved” on that day? No (the light did not enter the room), but I got excited, scared, upset, happy and went through just about every other emotion possible. I had come into His presence, into an experience of something that I could not fully fathom or understand. I believe that my true point of conversion occurred as I was walking home from a party one night along the beach. I remember looking at the stars in the sky, the greatness of His creation and crying out to the heavens, “GOD I DON’T KNOW WHO YOU ARE BUT I WANT TO KNOW YOU, I NEED YOU”. It was a cry of a heart longing to repent, longing for forgiveness, a longing that I could not suppress and from that day on I have been following Him, not always feeling his presence even sometimes shying away and rebelling but when you’ve tasted of who he really is there is no hiding your heart from him. I now attend church on a fairly regular basis with my family, however church or other people are not the cornerstone of my faith. Even today I would not label myself with a denominational tag I simply say that I’m a disciple of Christ – a Christian. Unfortunately even the true meaning of the name Christian has been lost due the fragmentation of the true Church and creation of denominations and titles, along with the many and varied arguments about doctrine. When the Lord answered me on the day that I cried out “But who are you” I believe He was saying three things. “I AM” – He stated “I AM” . If asked who I truly believe in my simple reply is: I believe in "I AM" Jesus Christ the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End, the one who was and is and is to come, the holy lamb of God. His death and resurrection. His call for repentance and baptism. His sending of a comforter, the Holy Spirit to indwell us as temples of the LIVING GOD. His close and intimate friendship. “THE ONE” – Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Even though there was one figure before me they were all present. “WHO HELPS THOSE WHO HELP THEMSELVES” – On the surface this may sound strange as the bible teaches selflessness, however in the context of salvation we need to help ourselves to His gift of grace. We have been given everything to lead us to a life of Godliness through Jesus Christ who loves us. If we really want to follow Him we have to help ourselves by taking up His cross daily. God Almighty has given us everything we need to discover who he really is through the Gospels, the Word and by the Holy Spirit of God. We need to take up the challenge and help ourselves by Repenting, Obeying Gods Word and Following Jesus, laying down our lives at the foot of the cross. Since then I have discovered that the Bible is more than just a history book or a map to life, it is more than a book of theology and rules. It is God’s Living Water of Life and all who drink from it will never thirst again. In it we find examples of how men and women followed God, how they walked with him from day to day and KNEW HIM FACE to FACE. They knew Him first hand, not from any stories, not from any songs, not based on any other persons experience or instructions but from their own Love, Obedience and Yearning for Him and His Love for them. My hearts cry is to know Him like this also. Not to have a relationship with Him based on vain imaginings or confining Him to my limited understanding, but to truly walk with Him and talk with Him the way that Adam, Mosses, Abraham all the prophets and patriarchs did. To see Him FACE to FACE. It reminds me of the account in the Gospel of the Samaritan woman who was fetching water and met Jesus at the well. She went back to the town and told everyone about Him and many believed because of her testimony, however it didn’t finish there. The towns people went out to Jesus and he stayed with them for a few days. At the end of his stay the towns folk said to the woman, “We no longer believe because of what you told us, for we ourselves have heard from Him and know that He is the saviour of the world” So the moral to this story? Firstly, don’t believe everything someone tells you without testing their character. Secondly, sadly there are not to many people left with solid character. So what then? Who is telling the truth? Who has the truth? What is the truth? Jesus said “I am the way, the truth and the life. No man come to the Father but by me”. Jesus said “The day is coming when those who worship the Father will worship Him in spirit and TRUTH”. Brian, God no longer asks me “Who are you?” and on that day when I die and stand before Him I will be judged just like all others. However I will pass through judgement because I have made myself know to God by having a relationship of love with Him through the Holy Spirit and in the grace of the gift of salvation given me by Jesus His son. Jesus has given me the following promises and through knowing Him and growing in my understanding and relationship with Him, growing in His very character and nature I believe by faith that He will carry through on His promises to those who believe, trust in, adhere to and rely on Him for their salvation. John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. Matthew 25 1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. 2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. 3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: 4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. 5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. 6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. 7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. 9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. 10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. 11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. 12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. 13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh. 14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods. 15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey. 16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents. 17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two. 18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money. 19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them. 20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more. 21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. 22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them. 23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. 24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed: 25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine. 26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed: 27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury. 28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents. 29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. 30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. Brian I believe that God will say to those who have put their trust in Him, “Well done good and faithful servant”. It will not be a question of “Who are you”? or “Why should I let you into my heaven”? Your name will either be know or not know: Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life. Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Eternal decisions are made in the here and now, not in the there and then. I have made my decision, what is yours? Allcare Tony H2o Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Hi Tony, Glad to hear you're starting to feel better. I don't have time for much right now - I get up very early in the morning, so I'll be very brief here. This almost brought tears to my eyes - not because it brought back fond memories of me and Dad, but because you've described a father-daughter relationship I've never had (but wish I did). My father was there, but he was very cold and very remote, and I feared him more than anything. His role in the family was basically co-enforcer of the rules, and co-provider. He didn't know any better, because his father died when he was just a child and he had no real example to learn from (anyway his father was kind of brutal when he was alive, as I've heard it). I'm sure my father loved me in his own way, though I never really thought so while I was growing up. I do remember when he was trying to teach me to swim, and he held me under the water until I thought my lungs were going to burst. Then, with all the strength my six year old legs could muster, I pushed up out of the water and hit him under the chin with my head - boy was he mad! He gave up on trying to teach me to swim after that. Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that I can't really relate to your description of a father's love for his daughter, touching as it was. Sorry... ------------------ www.indigenousrocks.com
Hey girl you stop it OK, or we’ll both end up flooding our keyboards, sniff, sniff. I am sorry that this was the case for you, I can partly relate. My dad was more of an absent father than the ideal which I described. I think we both missed out on a bit of that fatherly bonding, not that my dad was bad to us or anything, we just weren’t close and as time moved on we grew even further apart. As I said I hope and pray that I can be the father to my children that my heavenly Father has been to me. I can understand why its so hard for people to see God as a loving heavenly Father, to relate to Him as a compassionate God and also a God who corrects those He loves. It is difficult when you have had no earthly role model to then comprehend the experience of a relationship with a heavenly Father. I speak from first hand experience here, all those nasty bad habits that I learnt from my father are being dealt with day to day by my heavenly Father so that I as a Christian father can show the heavenly Fathers true character and nature to my children. So that they will understand, so that they can know who He is. It goes beyond just reading them bible stories, beyond Sunday school, beyond brainwashing as some may think, it becomes my responsibility, my life becomes theirs. I have to in my life show them who He is and the depth of my walk with God, my relationship with the God I profess to love will determine how they also see Him, and even how they relate to me. Side tracking a bit but sometimes we as Christians wonder why people don’t believe what we say. Why they can’t understand, why won’t they listen? May just be a case of people not seeing who God is in us, or in our households. May just be the case that we talk the talk before others but forget to walk the walk before our families. I often think to myself, Tony your actions will speak louder than any words you utter. Problem being in this place how do I show people who and what I really am? How do I apart from words? Anyway that was just me side tracking, sorry. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Mooncat asked a question earlier on in this forum about the trinity. She was asking what our take on it was. I would like to go into that in another post in the next few days if time permits because I think its fundamental to our understanding of who God the Father really is. Until then, Allcare Tony H2o Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Tony, ISDAMan's main question was: Your most recent response to me was quite lengthy and most of it I have read before. None of it spoke to the question asked, other than your stated belief that the question would not be asked. In other words, you are not going to answer the question. You could have said that in one sentence. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Stay well, Brian
Tony, Searcher, Knock it off you two, you're gonna get me tearing up next!! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! (Awh, dang, too late.) I guess I have a small point, and some rambling to do, so bear with me here. I am not entirely awake either, so please forgive me if I wander around a lot here. (I've only had a couple hours of sleep) I am grateful that I have the father that I do have, especially when I re-remember that not everybody had a father as "present" as mine was (and is). But he was by no means perfect. As I grew up, I saw him yell. I saw him cry. I saw him get drunk and punch a guy in a parking lot once. I heard him fight with my mom constantly. But I also had some of my best, most thoughtful conversations in my whole life with him. He never dissed my boyfriends, even when I knew he couldn't stand them. I saw him punch his boss so hard he knocked him down after the guy kicked one of our kittens so hard he broke it's leg. He lost his job because of it, but he never regretted it. I saw him sell his profitable business in So. Cal to move to No. Cal and take a crappy construction job because he wanted his girls to feel safe in their schools. I saw him wipe tears from his eyes while watching the Lion King. I guess my point is that the imperfect example he gave me will serve me just as well or possibly better than a perfect image of a holy Father would. Perhaps this is a personal thing, but I wanted to make that point. On a less personal note (quick, before I get REALLY teary Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ), I am seeing a bit of a correlation between a few things. Bear with me here, I think I'm going somewhere with this. I notice a dismaying trend in Paganism to worship Goddess alone, and subdue or ignore the God aspect of the divine. I have read & been told this is due to a backlash from Christianity and other "male-oriented" religions, but I'm also wondering if this isn't partially due to absent, distant, or otherwise unacessible fathers in real life. I mean, if you have a dad that you fear, or dislike, when it comes to worship you may not want a male figure anywhere on your horizon. So why are so many fathers so bad at it? I don't think it's religion, after all my father rejected his Baptist upbringing as a youngster (along with such teachings as blacks are niggers, be ashamed you are part Native American, boys don't cry, if you don't shoot a gun you're not a real man, etc). I think it's a societal thing. Men in general are taught by society, and possibly also by their own fathers & brothers that men don't cry, men don't care about kittens, it's the man's job to do the worrying and the money-earning and shoulder this gigantic burden without any kind of help or outward displays of their emotions. And so they go astray, they leave their families because they can't stand it anymore. Or they harden their hearts and become corporate monsters. Or they start drinking and sleeping with their secretary. Or they pick fights...a whole plethora of crap. I guess I have to blame society in general for this. Where did these male roles come from, why haven't they been overturned yet? I tell you something, being a woman is hard, but I can't imagine being a man in this world. I don't envy you guys one bit. It's so hard to know where you stand, from childhood thru manhood. It's very difficult for a lot of men to break away from that pigeonhole everyone wants to put them in, they're looked on as weak, or woman-like (hey guys, that oughta be a compliment!), or whatever nasty things their male peers say. And I bet those same guys saying that kind of crap are secretly admiring the one that's not afraid to be in touch with his "female" aspect. What was my point? Oh, heck, I can't remember. Just some random observations I guess. I do want to say one last thing to you Tony - it sounds to me like you're on the right track with your kids. Just don't be afraid or ashamed to let them see that you're weak & human too every once in awhile. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! They'll love you for it all the more. And PS - glad you're doing a bit better. Sorry I sidetracked this so far...and now, back to our regular programming... Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
MoonCat, I think it's probably a little bit of both. In the case of the God of the Bible, Jehovah, I viewed him as such a murderous, monstrous, hateful being that I never saw him as being worthy of worship. I guess he did kind of remind me of my father, who was forever talking about hitting someone over the head with a baseball bat, or saying this person needed to be shot, or that race eliminated, and so on - always at the top of his lungs, and more often than not, it would take place at the dinner table. Even though I realize on an intellectual level that the Pagan God is nothing like the God of the Bible, I tend to give them both a wide berth. And since the Goddess was left completely out of the Bible, and most women were given second class treatment in that book, I have a tendency to ignore the male aspect of the divine, myself. I don't really mean to, but there it is. Something I'll have to work on, I guess. ------------------ www.indigenousrocks.com
MoonCat, Although he wasn't perfect, I'd say by your description he was close enough. You knew he loved you and would always protect you and try to do the right thing, even though he might sometimes fail. He did his best, and I guess that's all you can really ask of anyone. Yes, I think you are lucky! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ------------------ www.indigenousrocks.com
Tony, As I told MoonCat, I never saw anything but a monstrous tyrant in the Biblical God, Jehovah (at least the way he was described in the Old Testament). I could never get past this, which is at least partly why I took the Pagan path, I suppose. I'm not sure why Christians don't see this unless it's because they've never read the Old Testament? I know a lot of Christians who tell me that they don't read the O.T. because Jesus came and obsoleted all of the old laws. I don't think that's quite true though, and I think it's important to know and understand the history of your own religion, wouldn't you agree? ------------------ www.indigenousrocks.com
Hi Brian, Sorry about that, I thought you were asking for a clearer picture of what I originally said. So why should I let you into my heaven? Because I know that you are true to your word my Lord And according to your word your promises to those who believe Promises that stand eternal so I as a man……. I as a man confess you as my saviour I as a man know you as my Lord I as a man cherish and delight in your presence I as a man trust in your righteousness I as a man listen for your instruction I as a man believe with the faith of a child I as a man humble myself before you I as a man earnestly seek your face I as a man forsake my past I as a man grow in your character and nature I as a man love you more than my life itself I as a man who knows that without your saving grace I as a man who knows that without your mercy and kindness I as a man who knows that without your love I as a man who knows Who knows that I am nothing in your kingdom without these things Who knows that I am an alien to you and your ways without these gifts Who knows that I am eternally lost save for your mercy and kindness to those who believe Who knows that to those who trust in, adhere to, and rely on your word to which you are true, they will never be forsaken My Lord, my God, my King I as a man will be forever grateful for the cross of Christ I as a man will rest eternally in salvation’s gift I as a man thank you my Lord Jesus for your intercession on my behalf I as a man who’s name is now known to the Father because of this I as a man will eternally praise your name and dwell in the house of God I as a man will eternally stand in awe of that which you have done I as a man will forever worship the Lamb who has made straight the way of salvation. Brian, I as a man know my God, I know him now and have listened to His question “Why should I let you into my heaven?” For me its not a question of IF? It’s a question of when, because each one will be asked and each one of us already have the answers in the here and now so that we no longer need to wonder “if”. The day is approaching, the day “when” we will stand before God. Brian, can I ask how you know you did this? How do you perceive His will in this life? How do you know He has never let you down? Please don’t get me wrong, I’m standing in awe of your reverence and respect in the answer you gave. But reverence in the there and then when you are acutely aware of God’s reality does not negate the requirement for faith in the here and now of His reality. A reality that once you know becomes the focus of your life, it becomes the deepest desire of your heart to grow in His and understand His will in this life and His promises for the life to follow. Promises given in grace so that when we do stand before Him we already know Him and He already knows us. We know Him by His word and His word brings life to those who believe. If again I have misunderstood what you were asking the or what you meant then please let me know, sometimes I’m a bit slow on the uptake, just ask anyone here they will vouch for that Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Allcare Tony H2o Also I searched my bible for some relevant verses regarding Heaven, it quite a list but I hope it helps in our understanding. Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. Revelation 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 6:20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: Matthew 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. Matthew 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. Mark 11:26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses. Mark 12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven. Luke 10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven. Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. 2 Corinthians 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; Philippians 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Colossians 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 1 Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. 1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, Hebrews 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: Hebrews 10:34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance. Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, Hebrews 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: 1 Peter 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. Revelation 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
