Simple deductive logic: it's the difference between a valid and a sound argument. If you want to prove something via reliance on the veracity of X, then the proof is only a proof of the truth once you can demonstrate the veracity of X. For which you refer us to the scriptures for our understanding. Thus your proof (should you deign to offer one) is reliant upon the veracity of the scriptures. I don't leave it alone because I don't like seeing fallacious reasoning. Clearly. If only they were false. That you don't necessarily understand that which you are accused of is no defence, and most times (other than the obvious) I do support the accusations. If you want me to stop pointing out the errors in your thinking / logic, the simple step from you would be to stop committing them. Why does one need to comprehend them? Why are they the authority on God? Prejudice against fallacious logic, yes. Proud, no. You basically ignore any criticism that comes your way any way, and since your comments are generally rife with criticism-worthy content, perhaps best you formalise the ignorance. Ta ta. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Unfortunately, that means the only alternative left is that God is within the laws of nature. If that is so, then we can observe, test and analyze its effects. Should we actually see any.
In context of previous statements: Yes, Jan, don't misrepresent my statements. Practice what you preach.
As you spout the Christian ones and almost always speak of scripture, not scriptureS, I have assumed your hold that the Christian one is correct when it is contradicted by others. For example, Christian scripture postulates that after death our soul leaves the Earth for heaven, hell, or limbo for baby dying a few days after birth unbaptized. (As I understand them and writing about them. - If wrong, please correct my understanding.) Re-incarnation scriptures don't have these "off Earth places." The soul is "re-incarnated" in a new body, here on Earth. Just one more step /stage in the "circle of life." There are many other points the various scriptures contradict each other, but this is a major and clear conflict. I have assumed that you refer to the christian scripture ONLY with the word "scripture" as then you don't need to be concerned about which is true. If and when a non-christian scripture contradicts the Christian scripture, it is simply wrong, from your POV. The Christian scripture is, as I said, less than 2000 years old. Thus does not describe a god all people have believed in since "time immemorial" as you assert in post 1168. For example: Does not describe the fire or river god which required a young virgin be thrown into it annually, etc. to assure a prosperous new year,
Are you these words that you write? Are you within these words that you write? If I print these words off and put them in the fire, will you feel the heat? You do realise "effects" basically means something that is produced or caused by an agent. Don't you? Just like you are the cause of the post I'm responding to. So how do you suggest we go about testing and analyzing to prove that you are the agent? Or do we throw our hands in the air and proclaim you do not exist? Jan.
I spent quite a bit of time explaining a little bit about where I'm coming from. I explained about the concept of karma, even reincarnation, if I recall. You haven't paid any attention to any of it. Have you? Jan.
Write4U, So to clarify, this... ...the extraordinary claim of a *supernatural* causality on which Scripture rests as a *premise* requires *perfection*... ...means... ...don't misrepresent my statements. Practice what you preach. Okay. Jan.
It did exist a long time without, before evolution and natural selection produced organisms which are able to enjoy the richness and abundance of the earth and by extension the universe.
So we are friends, just not besties. I can live with that. Where did I say I'm going to prove God by scriptures? I do recall saying words to the effect that I wasn't. Maybe that slipped by you, without you noticing. It happens. *Whispers* Who are we talking about? *Whispers* When I find out who he is, he's going to have a lot to answer for, upsetting my friend like that. Jan.
Is God within Fire? By your own argument God (as an abstract Intelligent Being) is unable to communicate with itself.
Some of it I have. That was why I was confused by your idea that the scriprures define god since they are mutually contradictory. Let re-state my example: Is there an Off Earth heaven, hell, angels or not? (Some say, yes and others say no). You will not be clear in your answer.
Why would you think that? To assume agency behind all effects seems rather unwarranted, does it not? Do you think rain is an agent, for example? We can see the effect of rain in the puddles it leaves, but rain lacks agency as it can not choose to act. Or are you perhaps using the term "agent" in a manner different to how it is generally understood in philosophy? You could watch him type if you went to his abode, and watch him type with the exact same writing style (analysis of length of words, types of words, sentence structures, length etc can provide sufficient confidence that he is indeed the agent). So how do you suggest we go about testing and analysing to prove that God is, say, the ultimate agent?
Most of my time is spent upon matters where I am helping others which could be seen as doing things not in my self interest. I do feel our discussion has moved far away from the OP. We all have a reasonable view of what the word God means such that I question the need to dwell upon refining the definition to the point it becomes tiresome. And we need not argue further about the benefits of the scriptures be they limited to the bible or the cart loads carried from India and translated in China. In fact I think it reasonable to conclude that all writtings have been written by men (and women) and establish nothing more than indeed documents are indeed written by humans. We can not say anything of any document other than it records a human thought or belief and it we can not conclude the document is a statement of fact. References to a god are no more than a recorded belief and as such offer nothing in the way of evidence or proof. Moreover belief in gods or a god is simply a belief and as strong as that belief may be held it remains a belief. You have your belief but you have no proof of a god or gods and that is evident by your determination to argue what you percieve as relevant points which are clearly irrelevant which puts off reaching the inevitable conclusion that humans wrote stuff they made up which can not be classed any way other than superstition. It is clear that attempting to put a god in the picture humans avoid taking personal responsibility for their action and avoid addressing inequities by rationalising that everything is in gods hands. I challenge humans to grow up and stop avoiding reality with their unhealthy reliance on ancient superstitions. Jan just think how much better you could be if you stood up for yourself and believed in you that it is you who has got you to where you are. Gods mercy you say I say the next time you even think those words may enter your head take a gulp of reality and take time to remember the deaths in war the misery the inequity the cruelty and stop kidding yourself about gods mercy... There is no god there is no mercy there is only mans belief... Man made it up.. It is all made up. There is no substance. Just think for yourself and ask where do my beliefs come from and you may well find the beliefs you hold so dear are indeed not yours but just made up stuff you have been fed since before you could think for yourself. Enlightenment is what I offer you, the next step, be you, be proud that you can think, be proud that you can escape from the chains of superstition. Be brave be honest become free. Forgive spelling and grammar problems I do this in a rush and I dont follow the rules as I should but I think clarity suffers little. Have a great day. Alex
Kids invent make believe invisible friends and adults see such as a problem and yet adults have their make believe invisible friends and fail to think it strange. Alex
The debate equivalent of Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Smoke bomb! You're still standing there. With no response.
Well let's hear this reasonable definition. Sure, if you ignore the contents. You speak for yourself. Is it impossible for God to exist, and if it isn't, is it impossible for God to impart knowledge to human beings?? How do you know there is nothing more to God than folks believing in Him? You make some bold claims, I think it is only right that we get your source of knowledge and information, so we can examine them. You keep saying there is no evidence of God, yet you cannot state how you know there is no evidence. It also implies that you would recognise evidence, if evidence became available. So what would count as evidence for God? I could just as easily say that it is clear that attempting to deny God humans avoid taking personal responsibility for their action so they can act how they like without the need for guilt or remorse. It's just words. What is the source of your claims? And I could just as easily challenge humans to grow up, and accept the obvious. God exists, and we are His eternal parts and parcels. Deaths, war, misery, and cruelty are a consequence of human affairs. That's the way of the world. What does that have to do with God's mercy? I would say stop kidding yourself, thinking you are in control of your life, and be thankful that we have the opportunity to realise God, our-self, and our-self in relation to God. So we can get out of this cycle of birth and death. You think for yourself, and be grateful that you have the intelligence, and opportunity to be able to have a belief. Be grateful that you have the opportunity to know your creator, and don't be proud of anything you didn't do for yourself. Just be glad that you can escape the darkness that has engulfed your life up to now. Be humble, and become wise. I liked your spirit, but it was pure rhetoric (and I returned in kind), nothing but your own belief, as it was mine. Hopefully you will realise, this type of discussion will get us nowhere. jan.
A friend you can't see, doesn't mean friendship isn't there. We are talking about God, and the concept of God is known to everyone above a certain age. Do you know when God came into being? jan.
