This topic is not about proving or disproving God, it is purely a theological debate for Christians. One issue I have been pondering lately is the idea that we should love the sinner but hate the sin, or in essence separate the two. It becomes increasingly difficult for me to understand how the two can be separated. As humans I believe we are made up of 5 basic components; Physical Emotional Volitional (will) Rational (ability to reason) Spiritual. When a baby is born it is interesting to see the nature upon which it acts, which is inherently self centred and therefore sinful. The only thing that matters to a baby is it's own needs and desires, it is it's own god. But I do also believe in a babies innocence due to it's ignorance of it's own sinful nature. The key idea is that sin is a part of our nature from birth, thus a part of us and our makeup, permeating every one of the components mentioned above. Our mission is to turn our nature around, to "no longer conform to the pattern of this world" and to reflect Christ by working to change our character, not separate parts of it. If we accept that we are inherently evil and need a complete renewal, rather than thinking we are actually perfect witha bit of excess bad bagagge, only then can we truly work to change. The only value I see in separating the sin from the sinner is that it becomes easier for us to love all people. Comments?
Dude, this is easy!!! First, you're taking a direct scripture out of the Bible, so to question whether there is value in the notion of hating the sin and loving the sinner is a mute point. Of course, and unfortunately, it's one that many "christians" have a problem with. That, of course, which is caused by Satan manipulating our egos and our flesh. Well big surprise. Second, you know that we're all sinners by nature...it's inevitable, we're born that way, and we stay that way until death, and that is one hell of a major principle in the Bible. Third, doesn't it say that one man's sin is no greater than his own in God's eyes? That we are not qualified to judge? Pop quiz...who's the judge? How could a human being judge another's intentions? Know one knows our heart and soul like God. The same action could have a thousand different intentions behind it. Fourth, are you under the impression that salvation through Jesus perpetuates sinlessness? I would imagine that it COULD relatively reduce sinfulness somewhat maybe. But not necessarily. You don't get "fixed", you get saved because you're broken in the first place. Fifth, you're saved by grace and grace alone...no one deserves it. Sixth, everyone of us is just as valuable and just as worthy as the other...some of us are just lucky enough to realize it. Seventh, you sin right? You are a sinner, through and through, and more so than you're even aware. Even you do not have any idea what YOUR judgement is going to look like. You, not being God, do not have any understanding of the true consequence of your intent and works on this earth. How can you think you have the know-how to judge another sinner? To rank or weigh sin, one against another??? Face it dude...you have no f'ing idea, so stop worrying about it...you never will, it's not your place, and it's not God's will. There, that ought to do it. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ------------------ You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe. [This message has been edited by Lori (edited July 22, 2000).]
Lori I agree with you 100 %. As you know I question the Bible as being the word of God and I probably always will. But when I read the Gospels I get exactly the same meaning out of it as you have stated and I don’t think that part of the message in the Bible is hard to understand nor must you understand the history or nature of the times it was wrote to understand that part and it’s meaning. My biggest complaint is about people who run around talking about Jesus and love and then turn around and start this judgment crap with the other people who are not necessarily in their group or corner. It’s very straight forward in the Gospels, ‘It’s not part of your job as a Christian or whatever to judge anyone’. Anyway well put..................
Thanks for your answers guys, Just a couple of things I want to point out,I never said we should judge anyone, I'm in agreement there. I do believe in Gods amazing Grace and I don't believe that when we find salvation in Jesus that we stop being sinners. But that does not mean that we should accept the fact that we are and leave it at that, we have a mission to become more Christlike. Could you tell me where in the Bible it says we should separate the sinner from the sin. I'm just trying to clear it up. Thanks, and I did like your answer Lori.
Francis Ritchie Sorry, I didn't mean to give the inpression you were. I was simply expressing a gut reaction on my part. "Could you tell me where in the Bible it says we should separate the sinner from the sin. I'm just trying to clear it up " I simply have no ideal on that one. My readings go back a few years and I simply don't remenber many things any more and to be honest I am simple minded on the subject anymore. I believe what I believe based on early years of exposure to the subject and do light reading once in awhile on the subject now days. There are some really learned people out here on the Bible. I don't agree with their interpretation many times, but they can quote the scriptures well. Hope they come in and give you a hand.
See Zappers, you understand the Bible more than most church people do. Kudos to you. It is obvious isn't it? I mean, duh. The whole Bible is like that you know...making complete logical sense and all. See, that's how you know it's His word. And yes Francis! We should all be more Christ-like! Fo sho...which would include not judging others right? Humility...seeing other humans through His eyes, and loving us all despite our sinfulness. I'm not saying you should condone sin, or try to sin, or not try not to sin, no, no. HATE the sin, but it's impossible to hate the sinner! After all, Jesus didn't hang in the temple...he hung with the hookers and the criminals...the shady people. And He loved them. Flash would have to help you with the scripture; I don't know where to find the verses. But honestly, doesn't hating a fellow human being, or putting your own self "above" another man, go completely against the foundational teachings of the faith????? It does; it just does. You know, people always say to me that I'm beating myself up all the time. I'll be talking about learning a lesson in life...making one of my many mistakes, having one of my many misconceptions, lacking faith. After all, the biggest part of getting religion is self-analysis. Well, actually Jesus is the big counselor in the sky. I certainly had no idea how many totally f'd up things there were about myself to try to undo or fix until I met Him. I thought I had it all figured out til it came crashing down on my head. Well, anyway, I don't even know how people have time to judge others when there are so many things to work on with ourselves. So people say that I beat myself up when I admit to making mistakes, talk about my malintent, my lack of faith, whatever...just trying to learn what God wants me to. They think I must just hate myself or something. NO! I don't. I make mistakes, and I'm learning, and I always will, and that's the meaning of life...so I'm living. The way God wants me to anyway. I may not be as good at it as He would like, but I'm trying. People who are too proud to learn from their sin will suffer their whole lives. I'm not afraid to learn...and I'm getting lots happier. This is much more interesting than anything I learned in school. Peace, baby. ------------------ You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe. [This message has been edited by Lori (edited July 23, 2000).]
Lori, I couldn't remember that being an exact phrase in the Bible. Although, I think that Jesus lived this by example. Anyway, just to be sure I tried to find if this indeed was an exact quote from the Bible or not. Which in finding it is not. However, I did come across the below on the net. Kind of some food for thought. "LOVE THE SINNER, HATE THE SIN" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So many times. Professional Faith Merchants tout this phrase and attribute it to our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ without so much as saying how Christ defined "sin," implying, and they do so frequently, "Sin is what I say it is!" WRONG! That is Satan speaking! Beware! While I can't personally disagree with the phrase which I'm sure God doesn't either, so often it is used as a precursor to denouncing some behavior as an "abominable unforgivable sin." There is only one unforgivable sin and it ios not murder! This prompted a great deal of research into finding out who was the originator of this phrase. Keep in mind, Christ defined sin only as "Not believing in Jesus Christ," John 16:9 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me; But Christ said even that is forgivable. If you profess belief in Christ but keep not His commandments, the hard, difficult, onerous and nearly impossible BIG 2, are you a true Christian? Christ said, "If you love me, keep my words," implying if you don't keep his words, then you don't love Jesus Christ! Christ came not to judge nor condemn the world but to teach it the way of the Father. Who then said, "love the sinner but hate the sin?" For those Professional Faith Merchants who use this as a sacred mantra and secretly wish they were a Prints or a Fathers in the Catholic Church, you'll be reassured to learn that research shows that "Hate the sin, love the sinner" probably came from the man designated as St. Augustine, not Christ. • The Oxford Dictionary of Quotations, says that St. Augustine wrote in letter 211 found in J.-P. Migne (ed.) Patrologiae Latinae (1845), vol. 33 "Cum dilectione hominum et odio vitiorum" which means "With love for mankind and hatred of sins." This according to the Dictionary, this is "often quoted 'Love the sinner but hate the sin' ". While Satan has, can and will reveal the truth to his minions, more often than not, there will be some lies intermingled. The fact that Professional Faith Merchants, who Christ said, "draw near me with their lips, but their hearts are from me," as they "teach for doctrine of God, commandments of men," use this phrase to judge their fellowman, it is important that man knows the truth from whence this phrase came and why. Concerning sin, Christ gave man ONLY TWO COMMANDMENTS, violation of which IS A SIN! Matthew 22:36-40 36 Master, which [is] the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour (sic) as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. Read Verse 40 again. “ON THESE TWO COMMANDMENTS HANG ALL THE LAWS AND THE PROPHETS,” which is to say that ALL THE LAWS and ALL THE PROPHETS since the beginning of time were given to man for the expressed purpose of teaching and getting man to adhere to these two commandments only! All other verbiage is simply commentary, some of which are the nothing more than commandments of men he teaches for doctrines of God for some of Satan’s gold! IF YOU LOVE GOD, JESUS CHRIST, YOU'LL KEEP HIS WORDS, HIS COMMANDMENTS, BOTH OF THEM! NOTHING MORE NEEDS TO BE SAID! David R.W. Wadsworth Servant of the Most High God
