So you can for sure??? Have you done it before??? How do you know you could??? Umm.... because... I, um, uhhh... bahhhhh. I'm a sheep. Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!! Yes I am. So what spells can you cast? [This message has been edited by Infinity (edited August 14, 2000).]
ROFLMAO!!!! Hey Infinity, quit being such a spoon fed sheep would ya?! You're beginning to remind me of a "church person"! HA, HA, HA, HA, HA!!!!! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Hypocrit. ------------------ You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.
Moon, Infinity-- If I might interject and offer a correction to an erratum I have merely perceived. In other words, I might be wrong, so .... I would like to rephrase that, especially in light of Infinity's definitive response: I would rephrase the question in one of a couple of ways, as I cannot claim to know entirely by what means myth/ancient principle calculates. Thus, one of the two applies: * Are you willing to be 300% responsible for your actions? (mild version of Threefold Law) * Are you willing to be responsible for the sum of your actions to the third power? (more severe interpretation) I recommend Starhawk's Spiral Dance as a good primer. I'm of the idea that any spell you believe in, you have the power to cast; this of course, does not take into account setting one's ambitions beyond the scope of their influence. But ... y'all know me ... I can't let this one go by without sticking in my nose, my two cents, my right foot (while shaking all about), and then some .... Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! thanx for putting up w/it, Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ------------------ We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)
Ok, I'm back... Tiassa, You asked "What individual doesn't struggle with taking the pretty part over the ugly part?"...or something like that? Um, the individuals who actually understand the basic foundational teachings of the faith. Individuals who actually work to develop understanding, and apply logic, and aren't just doing it to work a power trip, and actually have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, and who are led by the Holy Spirit, and those of us who have half a brain in our heads, and good intentions in our hearts. What exactly is it that is so difficult to understand? What should we be wrestling with exactly? There's good, there's evil, and there's consequences of both...what's so complicated about that? There exists absolute truth and spiritual law, none of which is relative to anything else, which, hello, is LOGICAL based upon EVERYTHING we ALL know about this world through our science and observation. What's so bad about that? Judgement is when we find the truth in our lives. What's so bad about truth? Oh yea, IT'S THAT YOU DON'T WANT TO HEAR IT. That's right... Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! And in response to the Simpson's quote...WHAT stuff that contradicts other stuff??!!?!?!? WHAT is so difficult about this? Listen, for anyone who actually applies themselves to understand Christianity as Jesus taught it, the theory just isn't that hard to get a grasp on OK?!?! Shoot, the hard part comes when you try to apply the theory to your life...then you find out how hard it is...and how f'd up you are...and how much you have to learn still. Tiassa, just answer me this...are you honestly trying to say that you agree with the hate mongers? Do you really think that it's a logical, well thought out and understood, interpretation of scripture? What kind of intentions do you think drive these people, and what do you think it says in the Bible about such intent? Get a clue...I'm tired of you playing BS devil's advocate (pardon the pun). This isn't brain surgery you know... And again with the scapegoat! What in the hell are you talking about? You say that my faith is the belief that Satan has so much power that neither Jesus nor I can stop him???????? And what would your source be on that little assumption, your rear end possibly??? Tiassa, you don't understand the Christian faith at all if you're contending that. Satan has NO power over Jesus Christ whatsoever, and Satan and humans have free will. WE, as humans, have power over Satan, and in the name of Jesus Christ. Human beings, given their free will CHOOSE to ALLOW Satan to influence them. As do I. We even CHOSE to be tempted in the first place!!! What scapegoat again?????? You know, the same non believers who blame God for giving free will and for the effects of said will, paradoxically argue all the time, that they blame God for not giving free will, in opposition to spiritual law and consequence. It's like, make up your mind...you want the free will, but you don't ever want to suffer consequences of making a wrong choice. You want a world with all right choices, and no wrong ones, correct? Pipe dream...Uh, why are you so apprehensive about Infinity casting spells???????????? Because a right and a wrong exists, and most of the time, we all get pretty confused about it right? Yea, some of us more than others, and the paganistic "theory of relativity" doesn't help one little bit...it assumes perfect knowledge of the absolute truth, or a non-existence of it, neither of which makes any logical sense. Oh my!!! So you think that the God hates fags hate mongers, holier than thou, judgment soaked opinions are just as valid of an understanding of Jesus and scripture and faith as my own?!?!?!? And none of us can ever hope to get a clue at all until we're dead??!! Then may I ask you why it is that you even bother thinking at all??? What would be the point of it exactly? Why not spin a bottle or flip a coin to make all of your decisions? Why not pay someone else to make them for you? I guess that you just answered my question as to whether you honestly believe these people are rational or justified or intelligent or have actual understanding...you don't think their intent has anything to do with it huh? You're just wrong Tiassa, and you know it. You know they're wrong...at least according to what you even know about my faith, which apparently isn't much. You know why they're wrong...intentions, hint, hint, you big dummy. I'm sorry, but honestly!!!! How can you be so oblivious? Believe me Tiassa, about the God hates fags thing...about the judgement thing...I'm right and they're wrong. And that's not relative, that's an undisputable fact based upon a clear and basic interpretation of scripture and basic logical understanding of the faith. These people are power hunger, hateful, judgmental, ego-driven, primarily uneducated, spoon fed to the point of brain washed freaks, and you know it. Are you honestly willing to say yourself that your own views about some things aren't more well thought out, or understood, or based upon more logical premises, or more rational, than ANYONE elses? Well then sweetheart, I should introduce you to some of my ex-boyfriends...you'd change your mind real quick. And this lends itself to your rant, thank you very much, about the different "interpretations" of Jesus. Uh, think about it Tiassa, geez. Jesus was Jesus, the law is the law, the word is the word, and the truth is the truth. None of that is subject to or relative to anything. What creates different interpretations, is a difference in understanding. DUH. Excuse me, but duh. Isn't that obvious? Are you arguing that there exist no differences in levels of understanding of anything or what? That's illogical. The better you get to know Jesus, the better you get to know Him. Makes sense doesn't it? The more you pray for understanding of His word, the more understanding you get. The more you know about life and this world and other things can factor in to your version of understanding...you know this stuff...why are you making me type this? Here's a good example...your understanding may be limited if you do something as illogical as taking an arbitrary half of the teachings as true, and the other half as false, based upon nothing more than warm fuzzy feelings. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! That could put a big dent in your understanding. Some people don't pray, and claim to be christians without really having faith or a relationship with Jesus. The Holy Spirit does not lead these people. People can choose to twist a lot of things around to serve an egotistical purpose...please stop giving people like that credibility. It's a stupid thing to do. And you know Tiassa, what you've suggested about applying faith to your own life, and changing the world, is EXACTLY, EXACTLY, TO A TEE, TO THE LETTER, EXACTAMUNDO, WHAT JESUS SAYS TO DO...so there...and that's exactly what I do, and it's exactly what every other born again spirit filled christian out there does, cause it's the meaning of life. That's my life...but you know, you're still suggesting some level of judgement in your recommendations. I find that I spend the vast majority of my time trying to analyze and correct my own intentions and subsequent behavior...I don't usually go around preaching to skin heads. It's funny that you mentioned that because not too long ago, I was dating a guy who's brother had been incarcerated, and came out of the joint a devout skin head racist. Just as a disclaimer, the guy I was dating was NOT. But anyway, I had to think about how I was going to deal with this guy, in a "family" way. The reason I had to think about it is because I really, really, really disagree with his ideas, and I think that they are very dangerous and hateful and illogical. And of course, you know my mouth. I decided that I could definately be a friend to him. That wasn't such an issue, as I find that I am inherently inclined to see the good in people, and focus on it. I understand my own mistakes and limitations well enough not to judge, and to understand that as wrong as someone may be about something, that we all start out as innocent little babies, that most people are jaded because they are afraid and have been hurt, and that as much as it seems unlikely sometimes, that we are all the same in our souls, in our hearts. I decided that I would never bring the topic of race up for discussion, and that if he brought it up, that I would try to not comment. The only way I would comment, is if he started preaching to me, as if to convince, or if he flat out asked me my opinion. At that point, I would respectfully decline the conversation, saying that in general, my opinion was pretty much in direct opposition of his own, and that I am very confident in it. And that I would agree to respect his opinion, if he would agree to respect mine. And that we would have to agree to disagree. Now if he still wanted to hear my opinion, I would gladly tell him what it was, and why it was what it was, to the best of my ability. But I would not disrespect him. I am the last person in the world who would know what you have to do to get by in a max security prison. I don't have a right to judge anyone. Get it? Ok, I've got to go to the gym. I'll resume later, taters. ------------------ You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe. [This message has been edited by Lori (edited August 14, 2000).]
That pages complaints against the new testament started off with two easy to resolve geneology contradictions and that "virgin" stuff in Isaiah so I didn't read any further. Time is usually at a premium for me and when a page starts off with geneology contradictions I have to abandon ship. What kind of browser do you have and what version? I used dreamweaver to make that page. It is made with dhtml and that is supposed to dynamically place things wherever you want without any browser problems. Anyone else have that problem? I will have to look into that. Peace, Vinnie
Vinnie, So when Jesus cried out, "My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me?", he was talking to himself? And what do you make of his statement that nobody knows the day and the hour of Judgment - not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only? What about when he told his disciples that "the Father is greater than I"? How about when Jesus admitted that he does nothing by his own authority, but "As I hear, I judge; and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me"? Do these statements, which were reportedly uttered by Christ himself, not indicate that Jesus was in fact separate from and less than God? ------------------ An ye harm none, do what ye will.
MoonCat, I tried your link regarding the Trinity, but it just takes me to the main page of ExoSci for some reason. What's up with that? By the way, did you get my email I sent in reply to yours on Thursday or Friday? Everything okay? ------------------ An ye harm none, do what ye will.
Infinity, Tiassa has raised some excellent points regarding responsibility in spell-casting. See my signature for the Wiccan Rede - which is the main rule Witches live by. But there's more to it than that - you have to be very careful that a spell you cast doesn't inadvertently cause harm to someone else. For example, you might find that you have need for $1000, and cast a spell to bring you that amount of money. Unbeknownst to you, Uncle Ned left you exactly $1000 in his Will. Soon after you carelessly cast your money spell, Uncle Ned is struck down in a crosswalk by a speeding car and killed. This is what is meant by responsibility, and it isn't to be taken lightly. But Witchcraft is about much more than spell-casting. It is a religion - also referred to as the "Old Religion". For more information, please go to this webpage: http://www.triplemoon.com/faq.html ------------------ An ye harm none, do what ye will.
Searcher, By golly, you're right! I dunno what's wrong with the link, it looks okay. Let me <a href="www.geocities.com/Metzad/Notstmnt.htm">try again</a> If that doesn't work, here's the path: www.geocities.com/Metzad/Notstmnt.htm I did get your email the other day, I'm sorry I didn't respond, got a nasty flu bug or SOMETHING, kept me crabby and lingering on the couch all weekend, didn't stick to my plans at all. I'll email you soon and give you the full scoop, exciting as that ISN'T. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Tiassa, I would've gotten there presently. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Just trying to extend enough rope... Infinity, No I didn't say I "for sure" could, I said "probably". I also said I probably wouldn't. The main reason is that I doubt you are sincere at all, and I wouldn't care to bother teaching something I hold as rather sacred as a joke. Spellcasting is not something you do for fun, or to impress people, or as a party trick. It's real, it works, and if you screw up it can have real repercussions. As Tiassa mentioned, it really is more like 300% responsibility. Now, if I were to teach you a spell that you used to ill effect, guess what? Not only are YOU in the cosmic shitcan, but so am I. I would be responsible for your actions the same way an adult would be responsible if they handed a loaded gun to a kidnergartner and sent him off to school. It is also merely a single aspect of my religion, are you saying you wish to embrace the Nature Gods as well, or are you just looking for some pop and sparkle? If you're just looking for pop and sparkle, I can't help you there at all. Otherwise, I can recommend some sources. Third point, is that I believe spells need to be written by the person casting them. A spell written by me will have my own personal spirit intertwined, my own personal symbolism, and directed towards the Divine image(s) *I* feel most comfortable with. It would not work for someone that was not me, or at least not very well. I write spells "on the fly" anyway, I don't can them and keep 'em on my shelf. Fourth; you can learn it the same way I did, on your own. It takes work, it's not something you can just recite and expect miracles to happen. You must learn to feel the forces around you, program them to your intent, then send them out. The words of the spell are secondary, just a way for you to focus that energy. Many spells of mine are completely silent, I don't always need to speak aloud, and therefore would translate poorly into words anyway. I use symbolism and visualization to do the majority of the work, the words are more like a reminder than anything else. If you really, actually do want to learn, start reading. SpiralDance by Starhawk, yes, that's a great one to start with. That triplemoon website is great as well. Check out www.witchvox.com too. Read "Wicca, a guide for the solitary practitioner" by Scott Cunningham. Heck, read just about anything by Scott Cunningham. Or "Green Witchcraft" by Aomiel. "Drawing Down the Moon" by Margot Adler is also very educating. Nature is the very best teacher there is. Spend time in Her many Gardens around the world. Grow a plant, observe carefully how it grows and discover how many lessons you can learn from a simple seed. Watch the moon rise and set for a full lunar month, feel how differently each phase feels to you. Learn to identify different stones, see if any of them 'speak' to you. It's a lot of work, Infinity. I don't think you're serious enough to take the full load on, and that's why I won't teach you what little I have already learned. Study some of these other things though, and I would be happy to discuss any questions with you, I may not have the answer but someone will.
Ok Tiassa, I'll finish up on a more general note. And that is...the insanity is NOT Christianity, in any way, shape, form, or practice...period. You define a spiritual faith in terms of works and acts of humanism, which fine, you should be able to SEE some works of faith in this world. The problem is this Tiassa...you're looking in the wrong place, and focusing on the wrong acts. Acts which were NOT the product of a Christian faith. You equate the spiritual faith with what amounts to have been a more politically oriented organization. And I'm sorry to break it to ya AGAIN, but this is a fatal flaw!!!! Listen to what the Bible teaches...and as clear as crystal at that...that we, as Christians, are not supposed to influence by force, or judgement, or power. We are supposed to influence by witnessing. And I guarantee you Tiassa, that the sum total effect of the true Christians, who are familiar enough with their own faith, and their own God, to understand this and practice it, out does the effects of those phonies who got it wrong. Christianity is one of the most widely accepted religions in the world. It stands to reason that people would "join" a church for all kinds of reasons, and not necessarily the right ones. And what is your great suggestion for me Tiassa? You always totally ignore the fact that I'M A SPIRIT-FILLED CHRISTIAN, AND I DON'T BUY THE HYPE. Your suggestion is for me to what? Over throw the church? To me, my faith isn't about power, or about an organization, or about judging. I wouldn't bother trying to force my judgment on the organized church or it's members, any more than I would the skin heads. But I'm a witness. What do you think that "normal" church people think of me and my beliefs about some things? You keep arguing the same point, and just give it up, cause it's dead already...I told you before, that if I were to walk into a church, and start preaching TRUE Christianity, and shared my ideas about judging others, THE CONGREGATION WOULD GET UP AND LEAVE, AND GO FIND ANOTHER CHURCH, WITH ANOTHER PREACHER, THAT HATES FAGS. OK?!?!?!?!? Please tell me you get this, and just drop it once and for all. Tiassa, Doesn't it matter to you that none of the things you find so apalling about organized religion were actually taught by Jesus? Why not? Why doesn't that matter to you? And don't give me that BS about how it's all up to individual interpretation, and that judging and condemning and murdering people is actually advocated and taught by Jesus, cause you know it's BS. So what gives really? I know you're not this dumb, so what gives already? And just so ya know...my grannie is a devout churchie, and she's a great lady, don't get me wrong...she's got a really good heart. But she's allowed herself to be lazy and unfamiliar and judgmental, apparently, regarding some things. And I swear to you, I have spent lots of energy on witnessing to grannie. Just the other day, we were arguing the homosexuality thing, and if you think it's easy to talk about that with your grandma, think again. I stand up for what I believe in Tiassa, and I really do try to do the right thing, and listen to what God places on my heart, so that maybe one day, someone will look at me, and see God's love for what it truly is. And I promise you personally, that I will never try to judge someone else, or force someone, or condemn someone, for being different, or for being a sinner. I'm a sinner, and I will always be one, but it's my purpose in life to have faith in God and to love Him. That's all I can do. That's all I'm willing to do. What you suggest is futile, I'm sorry, but it is. And I would bet that you would be really, really, really surprised at how many Christians there are who try to do the same thing. No one is perfect, but if we all try to keep our hearts pure, and our intentions in line with God's will, the world WILL be a better place. You are just very, very confused about what God's will is apparently. Here's a hint...it doesn't have anything to do with some political power struggle. ------------------ You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.
HELLO! Whats magic got to do with the topic, and while we were bickering did anyone notice that Starsream left the scene. DARN IT! I wanted to find out where their view came from, what the influences were. Infinity, You're not going to find out for sure or not if spells can be cast, we're on the net and only words can be given, not actions shown.
Searcher, Your Uncle Ned example reminds me almost exactly of the example given by Donald Michael Krieg, in Modern Magick, when describing the difference between theoretical White, Grey, and Black magick. Seems to me that Gerina Dunwich is also fond of the money-spell example. Thanx, y'made me smile Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! memories .... Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ------------------ We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)
Lori-- * "basic foundational teachings of faith"--These are? (no, don't answer yet) * "who actually work to develop understanding and apply logic"--Which logic leads to what understanding? (no, not yet) * "have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ"--That looks exactly like what? (patience ....) * "who are led by the Holy Spirit"--Led to do what? (not quite yet) Okay, the purpose of these basic retorts is to demonstrate that, while I agree with much or most of the rhetoric you've posted, there is still the subjective nature of what those interpretations mean. Sarcastic answer: No, it's not brain surgery. It's more delicate than that and you know it. Less-than-sarcastic answer, hopefully to be regarded as civilized: You know as well as I that these people believe that they are led by the Holy Spirit just as much as you would believe of yourself. They can pull the pretty (vis-a-vis their fetishes) from the Bible while ignoring the rest; so can you, or I, or anyone who chooses to engage the Bible. It's a matter of what we find important. I find it strange, from a statistical point of view--as such--that so many people's personal relationships with Jesus allow them so much ridiculous conduct. I'm well aware that you are befuddled by this, too. But these people think they are working to develop their understanding of their faith. Yes. And faith is faith, and is the only thing that connects these. Jesus was Jesus. The Law existed independently of him. The word was proclaimed around him. Truth is utterly subjective. How is it that the same lesson I learned from Jesus about compassion means I'll feed someone a sandwich because they need it, while another person (Joe the "False" Christian, for your purposes) thinks the lesson means he needs to yell at the hungry person to "Get a job!" It isn't that I resent his hostility toward the hungry beggar, but that both he and I heard the same "truth", and Joe the F.C. has managed to equal that literal truth to something I find to be the opposite. And since I'm not supposed to speculate about God's will ... well, I won't know the answer to that conundrum until I'm dead. I wouldn't be far from the point, I think, should I ask if you think the best course is to never worry about the conflict that arises between two people's interpretations of the same truth. * * * I wanted to reiterate an earlier point: Tell me, please, how you love Satan. * * * Back to the regularly-scheduled program: Cute folding of history. You know well that I'm a firm believer in the myriad levels of understanding. Yet it endears me none to people who exist on certain of those levels of understanding. You're into televangelists ... you tell me. Apparently, as long as you believe in Jesus, you're in the clear? We know that's not the truth. But let's look again at some of Joe's myriad levels: * Joe is a Christian with a personal relationship with Jesus who served his military because somewhere in the Bible it tells him to respect his government, or * Joe is a Christian with a personal relationship with Jesus who denied his country's call to arms because he believes God told him not to kill, or * Joe is a Christian with a personal relationship with Jesus who spanks his kids past the line of beating them unnecessarily because, as God said, "Spare the rod ...." Or ... * Joe is a Christian with a personal relationship with Jesus who won't spank his kids because he believes in Christ's mercy and compassion, and sees none in spanking kids. Or ... (can I stop now or do I need to go on?) Now, these are fairly simple examples, right? But what is the "Way" that God intended? Comparing your hitherto expressed opinions on such ideas, combined with what I can observe in the Christian culture around me, I reiterate my abusive claim that no Christians have walked since they walked along the road beside Him; and include that Christianity, when executed, is much like theoretic Anarchism, where everyone agrees voluntarily to a central theme, and then does whatever the hell they want. I think the manner in which Christians regard their Christianity today reflects a sentiment that they are divorced from their faithful brethren in such a manner that the actions of one have no bearing on the actions of another until ideas clash in an arena where property or person are in question. In this sense, and without sarcasm, what of Jesus' reminder that whatsoever we do to his brethren, so do we do to him? This divorce of the brethren often resembles the situation that individuals are ignoring the acts of their brethren, and thus (by proxy), ignoring Jesus. Very simply this: Will Satan be redeemed when the Kingdom is at hand? If Satan is not redeemed, it means that God's love and forgiveness is not infinite. It means that Jesus' compassion does not extend to the entire universe. It means, then, that redemption is subjective, which means that many appropriate faithful may not be saved. If Satan is redeemed, then it means that his role in evil is merely accessory, for God can forgive him the nature of his universal duty. Satan is equated with the evil forces in the universe. Do these evil forces operate independently of God? Does God, then, have no control over evil? * A key question is whether or not angels have a learning capacity. This is not as frivolous as it seems, as common angelic theology generally describes Christian angels as being aware of the whole of God's knowledge, as such. That is, they know the Divine Plan that they execute. A theological argument concerning Satan in this particular sense is that he cannot be redeemed, for he cannot learn to repent. As such, with God's plan being whole and perfect and known--at least--by God, it seems that God could not miss the fact that one of his angels was bound to fill this capacity. The universe needed an "evil" balance in order to give God's light a contrast against which to shine. That God created the Satanel, knowing that the angel would rebel, indicates that Satan's role in the theology is exactly as God wants it. No matter how you cut it, evil derives from God. God does not seem extraneous ... that is, why create a Devil at all? Good and evil are determined by God in creation and in practice. The Devil seems merely a counterpoint to distract attention from the REAL great-and-secret-show. That is why the Devil's a scapegoat. All of that Bad Press because God didn't want it for Himself. All of those evil deeds because God hadn't the courage to do it himself, or at least admit to it. Every born again, spirit-filled Christian? You'd be amazed, then, at how many people describe themselves like that. Perhaps best read: "...every born-again, spirit-filled Christian should." Tell me, though ... do you feel that Jesus would want you encouraging change because "it's a good way to live", or because "the Bible says so"? I'm sorry, but if every born-again, spirit-filled Christian did engage the ideal, we wouldn't have so many allegedly born-agains causing misery for the remainder of society. A few things. * Obliterating Christian faith: Is this the "good" and "proper" faith? Or the "faith" of the common American screwball? In the case of the latter, isn't that part of what you advocated in another thread when you were telling me I was a Christian? * Jesus as brother makes Bible BS: Quite frankly, if you had, oh, demonstrated this point instead of telling StarScream and all our fellow posters that his ideas are the religion of the antichrist, I probably never would have stuck my nose into this one. So, please, enlighten us. A few last things to clear up: I'm happy you've been able to distinguish between those parts of the Bible. However, Ned Flanders is not the first, last, or nearly the only person I've ever heard ask this question. In Lutheran circles, my personal experience was that we don't ask questions about the Bible's contradictions. In Catholic circles, it was, "Are you sure you're reading that right?" However, I'm thrilled at your utmost compassion toward your Christian brethren who have not simply decided which parts to take and which to leave; who have not reconciled what parts of the Old Testament Jesus affected; who have not decided that Satan is responsible for everything they personally think is evil. You could do much to educate your less-resolved brethren. Of course I don't agree with these freaks. No, it's not logical, well-thought, or otherwise. However, it is a legitimate interpretation, as it is no thinner when methods are compared than many other quirks of faith. The intentions that drive these people are what they have learned; what they have learned, as Christians, is the direct result of the application of Christianity throughout its history. Guess what? It seems it's not producing that many good students. Hmmm ... maybe there's a fundamental flaw in the basic philosophy. Every Christian, good or bad, thinks they're motivated properly by the Bible, and believes their intent to reflect God's will. They receive the same warmth you do. Yet their god hates fags. You have asserted that the Theory of Relativity is absolutist. Please demonstrate. (Do some reading on it and you'll find that Einstein was the first person to point out where the theory failed. And guess what? When Relativity was "disproved", the champagne celebration didn't last long because people suddenly realized that even Einstein knew it would be, and accounted for that in the theory.) As for assumptive: observational assumptions at least have the merit of being formed around observations. Faith assumptions ...? Maybe they're enforced institutionally? 'tis time for me to retreat from this wonderful office. I mean, in 1850, a cow was hanged for sorcery in Kansas. These people felt as strongly about their Jesus as you do. thanx, Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ------------------ We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke) [This message has been edited by tiassa (edited August 15, 2000).]
Tiassa, Could be because that's where I lifted it from! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! I like the way Krieg explains it, and thought Infinity might understand that example better than any other I could think of at the time. Keep on smiling! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ------------------ An ye harm none, do what ye will.
MoonCat, Okay, the second link worked, although it was trying to download Hebrew fonts or something, but gave up on that for some reason. Anyway - great information, once again! Actually it covered a great deal more than just the Trinity, and you really have to wonder about all the contradictions between the New Testament and the Old Testament. Now I know why Paul condemned the study of genealogies! That was always such a mystery before. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Thanks again! ------------------ An ye harm none, do what ye will.
Francis, I'm a tellin' ya...it's alien abduction. The stuff that Starscream is spewing about "Jesus, the regular guy"..."yes, you too can be like Jesus, just a tweak here, and a pinch there"...it's the end times deception. ------------------ You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.
______________________ So when Jesus cried out, "My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me?", he was talking to himself? And what do you make of his statement that nobody knows the day and the hour of Judgment - not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only? What about when he told his disciples that "the Father is greater than I"? How about when Jesus admitted that he does nothing by his own authority, but "As I hear, I judge; and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me"? Do these statements, which were reportedly uttered by Christ himself, not indicate that Jesus was in fact separate from and less than God? ___________________ I just wanted to say that you raised some very good questions. On my site I go over a few of the hard to understand verses in the Bible that seem anti-trinity. You asked why Jesus doesn't know the date and only the father does and why is the father greater than Jesus? Well, did you know the angels were greater than Jesus? Most of those verses seem anti-trinity because of a failure to understand the Incarnation (God becommingg flesh). Jesus lowered himself and lost the glory he had before the world began as being one of the 3 members of the Triune God. Here are some verses that seem anti-trinity (some of which you were referring to). John 14:30 "You heard me say, `I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. John 5:30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me. John 6:38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. Notice how Jesus claimed to have come down from heaven. He claimed to be more than a man. It gets back to the old trilemna (liar lunatic or lord). We seem to have a few poblems here. Here is their resolution... Phil 2:5-11 5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death-- even death on a cross! 9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Jesus made himself nothing. That is very important to remember. He took on the nature of a servant. John 17:5 says "And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began." When Jesus, took on flesh He lost something, people like me would say He lost his extra-dimensionality. He humbled Himself. He "became a servent. Hence the reason why the father is greater and Jesus is doing the will of the one above in all those verses. He lowered himself and became fully human. John 1:1 tells us Jesus was around in the beginning. Jesus was fully God but lowered Himself to be a man. In John 17:5 up above He asks to be returned to His previous position of glory and He was exalted back to God's right hand side after His resurrection. He resumed His full role as one of the three persons in the trinity that make up the One God and Lord of all creation. Verses like John 14:28 reveal "the subordinate role Jesus accepted as a necessary part of the incarnation." (Niv Text Note) He did not know the day nor hour here on earth. Even Jesus had to live by faith here on earth. This is why I like this quote from Dorothy L. Sayers so much: "For what it means is this, among other things: that for whatever reason God chose to make man as he is--limited and suffering and subject to sorrows and death-he [God] had the honesty and the courage to take his own medicine. Whatever game he is playing with his creation, he has kept his own rules and played fair. He can exact nothing from man that he has not exacted from himself. He has himself gone through the whole of human experience, from the trivial irritations of family life and the cramping restrictions of hard work and lack of money to the worst horrors of pain and humiliation, defeat, despair, and death. When he was a man, he played the man. He was born in poverty and died in disgrace and thought it well worthwhile." ____________________ Do these statements, which were reportedly uttered by Christ himself, not indicate that Jesus was in fact separate from and less than God? __________________ I just discussed the "less than God" stuff up above. Jesus being separate from God is part of the doctrine of the trinity. There are 3 beings that make up the one triune God. "What the Bible does teach is stated in the doctrine of the Trinity: there is one God who has revealed Himself in three persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, and these three persons are the one God." Josh Mcdowell and Don Stewart pg 57-58 in "Answers to Tough Questions" The trinity is kind of a mathematically absurdity to us 4 dimensional beings. But it is one of the extra-dimensional doctrines in the Bible justt as Genesis one is an extra-dimensional statement. A transcendent force independent of matter, space and time that created the universe. Hugh Ross, in 'Beyond the Cosmos' on pg 94 tells us that, "The Bible declares emphatically that there is only one Savior, one Creator, one Redeemer, and one Resurrectionist, and yet it identifies two or three members of the godhead as that one Savior, Redeemer, Creator, and Resurrectionist. The one name God assigns to Himself is the unpronounceable YHWH. In one paragraph of scripture, both God the Father and God the Son lay claim to this name." ""My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me?" Very brief Chritian interpretation of this verse. God cannot look upon sin. When Jesus boore the sins of the world on the cross he felt very separated from God. Don't ask me how exactly Jesus bore our sins. That I do not know. I only know that he did. Hope this helped. Peace, Vinnie
