Yahweh, the baby killing God.

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Someone7, Aug 21, 2000.

  1. Someone7 Registered Senior Member

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    123
    He ordered the death of infants?

    I Samuel 15:2,3,7,8 - Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt....Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass....And Saul smote the Amalekites from Havilah until thou comest to Shur, that is over against Egypt.....And he took Agag the king of the Amalekites alive, and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword.

    Hosea 13:16 - Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.
     
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  3. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    I'm tempted to say, "And you're surprised?" and leave it at that, but that's hardly helpful. Thus, I can only offer a few summaries of ideas I've picked up from my various time spent trying to learn to worship this particular god-form.

    * He killed his enemies; being God, he knows all, including the destinies of his enemies; God knows well that if he does not kill the infant, He will necessarily have to kill the man in later years.

    * We must separate the acts of Jesus from the stories of the wicked Jews.

    * It's a metaphor.

    In other words, there's no good reason for it all, if we limit ourselves to what the one compiled source tells us. But I'm sure any good historian or cultural anthropologist can establish the practical reasons--e.g. economic, familial, customary, &c.--to "justify" the idea academically. That answer, of course, would speak nothing toward the morality. Of course, this God also killed Onan for the crime of coitus interrruptus, though a Lutheran pastor and a Franciscan both explained to me that this incident had more to do with Onan's disobedience, for God had instructed him to have sex with the wife of his dead brother. To the other, I think God also told the wife to dress up like a prostitute and accomplish sexual relations by subterfuge, but I may be combining two separate tales from Genesis.

    Anyway, I'm rambling a little now, so I'll stop.

    thanx,
    Tiassa

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  5. Lori Registered Senior Member

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    And the moral of the entire OT...the wages of sin is death. Yes, even for infants, and puppies too. Not the infant's sin, so please don't moronically come back with that idea. All of our sins, or how about the combined and compounded effect of all of humanity's sins throughout history. See, if we (some more than others) weren't so short-sided, we should all have learned something from this moral right? But then gee, I look around and I see little kids getting hit by cars, and parents beating their children to death, and teenagers leaving their babies in dumpsters, and kids being raised in day care centers, and teenagers bringing machine guns to school and blowing their class mates to smithereens, and how many abortions were performed in 1999? Anybody got the stats on that? Guess what? I killed my own child. And guess what? I did it in my denial of God. And guess what? That's the reason that I ended up getting religion. And guess what? EVERYTHING IS NOT RELATIVE.

    And you're telling me that you want to blame God for this?!?!?!?! Are you KIDDING??? God is the one who is trying desparately to get it through your thick skull, that the wages of sin is death!!!!! He's the one telling you what sin is, and exactly how bad it is for all of us, and how not to do it! He's offered up a handbook per se (Tiassa). It's called the Bible. (?) He even offers personal instruction, actually that's required. What more do you want? Here...here, I'll list the sins for you...greed, lust, envy, pride, wrath, gluttony, and sloth. THAT IS WHY INNOCENT CHILDREN DIE. Get it? And God doesn't buy into any of that...BUT WE SURE AS HELL DO, DON'T WE? Apparently, that is the nature of our flesh. To destroy our spirit.

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    You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

    [This message has been edited by Lori (edited August 21, 2000).]
     
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  7. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    Does not the God of the OT punish for four or five generations to come? Do not the sins of the fathers bring God's wrath on the sons?

    The wages of sin may be death, but explain that to the children who inherit their fathers' sins.

    The most literal interpretations I can think of would be the 20th-century writer HP Lovecraft. HP's dad, Winnfield Scott Lovecraft, liked the ladies. So much so that he would buy their favors. And then he contracted syphilis, allegedly in Chicago, which he brought home, gave to his wife, and hence his son. Winnfield died shortly before HP was born, Susie Lovecraft went crazy, and the sum effect of her insanity was that HP was misogynist, racist, and just about every -ist one could imagine, until syphilis contributed to his death at age 37, in 1935. No more Lovecrafts, ever, from that line.

    Is there a moral there?

    thanx,
    Tiassa

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  8. Someone7 Registered Senior Member

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    Oh, and exactly what is the moral of this story? What good came from Yahweh ordering Paul to kill everyone in Amalek, including innocent children? Revenge for Israel? Is your God so petty as kill women and children for the crimes their ancestors committed? To answer that, let’s turn to the bible:

    Ezekiel 18:20 - The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

    Of course, that is direct contradiction to other, probably more important verses:

    Exodus 20:5,6 - Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me…. And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

    You should recognize this as one of the various sets of 10 commands out of the bible. So which is it? Is your god so petty as to kill innocent babies for the crimes of their parents (and as you suggest, others), or is it just more idiotic biblical contradictions?
     
  9. Someone7 Registered Senior Member

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    123
    “And you're telling me that you want to blame God for this?!?!?!?! Are you KIDDING??? God is the one who is trying desparately to get it through your thick skull, that the wages of sin is death!!!!! He's the one telling you what sin is, and exactly how bad it is for all of us, and how not to do it! He's offered up a handbook per se (Tiassa). It's called the Bible. (?) He even offers personal instruction, actually that's required. What more do you want? Here...here, I'll list the sins for you...greed, lust, envy, pride, wrath, gluttony, and sloth. THAT IS WHY INNOCENT CHILDREN DIE. Get it? And God doesn't buy into any of that...BUT WE SURE AS HELL DO, DON'T WE? Apparently, that is the nature of our flesh. To destroy our spirit.”

    You added this after I posted my message, so I’ll respond to it also.

    Yes, I want to blame Yahweh FOR HIS OWN ORDERS. If the president ordered the army to kill innocent babies, wouldn’t you look at the president like he is a madman? And if I remember correctly, those seven deadly sins are never mentioned in the bible, though God probably commits more than a few of them (he even admits to envy, hehe). And I’m not asking why do innocent children die, in fact I’m not asking anything at all. Though, I guess I will now ask, why did your god Yahweh order the deaths of innocent babies?
     
  10. Someone7 Registered Senior Member

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    123
    In fact, God pretty much commits all those deadly sins, except the one you forgot, avarice. Let's take a look shall we?

    Pride: How many times did he see "that it was good" in Genesis? It is his own work, he saw that it was good, so he takes pride in his own work.

    Wrath: Do I even have to mention the countless accounts of Yahweh acting like a genocidal maniac?

    Envy: He even says he is a Jealous god to Moses. Jealousy and envy are basically synonymous.

    Lust: The Holy Ghost did impregnate Mary didn't he? Isn't the Holy Ghost part of the trinity? Naughty ole Yahweh.

    Gluttony: Why are we here? To worship God? You mean Yahweh created 5 billion people to tell him how great he is?

    Sloth: Genesis 2:2 - And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

    You mean God, the omnipotent deity, who should be able to create universes at the snap of his fingers, rested? Seems he wouldn't need any rest, I guess he was just kind of slothing around...
     
  11. Lori Registered Senior Member

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    1,065
    Wow Someone, whoever you are, you sure do sound full of pain and anger and bitterness. I'm sorry about that really. I know first hand that's not a fun place to be.

    Let me first say that the whole "sins of the father" thing can be summed up pretty simply, if you only have a clue. If a man is to put his earthly father first, and above his Heavenly Father, then he will surely suffer the sins of his earthly father. If he puts his Heavenly Father first, above his earthly father, where He belongs, then he will not suffer the sins of his earthly father, because he will know better. There now, see how easy it all is when you actually use your brain?

    And see, that's like just a global suggestion here. I don't know what else to say except that you are soooo not understanding the meaning behind what you're reading of the Bible. If I were to take a guess, it would have to be that's because you really don't want to find meaning in it. You don't understand anything about God. This is generally how it is, if I were to have to sum the whole "sin and death" thing up...God created the universe yes, and it was good, not because He thought so, but because it actually was good. You can't ignore the way physical and natural law works in the universe and on this planet. And spiritual law works the same way. Sin is merely a deviation or perversion or misuse or violation of spiritual law. Now what do we know happens when we deviate or pervert or misuse or violate natural and physical laws? There are consequences right? And they're usually not good right? What usually determines whether the outcome of a manipulation of some law is good or bad? The intentions of the one who is manipulating it, that's what. Let's list them again, shall we...greed, lust, pride, wrath, envy, gluttony, and sloth. Just look at the environment alone, and tell me the effects of these intentions. Hmmm...could it be the DEATH of the planet? Uh, yep. So basically, sin is like spiritual pollution, and it leads to the death of your soul. Get it?

    You know, God isn't like some big drill sargent in the sky? So, uh, do you get God bellowing in your ear, commanding you to kill babies alot or what? You're not seeing the big picture at all. You really need to have the right intentions when you read the Bible, and you definately don't. You won't get it unless you really want to get it. That's how faith works. What do you think?

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    You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

    [This message has been edited by Lori (edited August 21, 2000).]

    [This message has been edited by Lori (edited August 21, 2000).]
     
  12. Searcher Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    651
    Lori,

    Does this explain the killing of the infants and pregnant mothers with their unborn children in Someone's OT example? Are you saying that the infants and unborn children had put their earthly fathers first over their "heavenly father", hence their gruesome punishment? And you wonder why I don't fall all over myself to worship your God?

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    An ye harm none, do what ye will.
     
  13. Someone7 Registered Senior Member

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    123
    “Wow Someone, whoever you are, you sure do sound full of pain and anger and bitterness. I'm sorry about that really. I know first hand that's not a fun place to be.”

    Wow, you sure do like to make presumptions about people. What anger and pain am I feeling over the non-existence of your ancient Hebrew god? What anger do I feel from the nonsense in your religion’s holy book? Could it be you’re trying to twist around the anger that you feel from my post onto me? It sure seems like you feel sensitive about this subject, you having aborted your child and all (I think that is what you meant when you said, “I killed my own child”).

    “Let me first say that the whole "sins of the father" thing can be summed up pretty simply, if you only have a clue. If a man is to put his earthly father first, and above his Heavenly Father, then he will surely suffer the sins of his earthly father. If he puts his Heavenly Father first, above his earthly father, where He belongs, then he will not suffer the sins of his earthly father, because he will know better. There now, see how easy it all is when you actually use your brain?”

    I think Searcher pretty much summed up what I would have said, except for the comments you made to me about me not using my brain. Indeed, it seems you’re the one again who is “full of pain and anger and bitterness”. Insulting me is a clear sign of this.

    “And see, that's like just a global suggestion here. I don't know what else to say except that you are soooo not understanding the meaning behind what you're reading of the Bible. If I were to take a guess, it would have to be that's because you really don't want to find meaning in it. You don't understand anything about God. This is generally how it is, if I were to have to sum the whole "sin and death" thing up...God created the universe yes, and it was good, not because He thought so, but because it actually was good. You can't ignore the way physical and natural law works in the universe and on this planet. And spiritual law works the same way. Sin is merely a deviation or perversion or misuse or violation of spiritual law. Now what do we know happens when we deviate or pervert or misuse or violate natural and physical laws? There are consequences right? And they're usually not good right? What usually determines whether the outcome of a manipulation of some law is good or bad? The intentions of the one who is manipulating it, that's what. Let's list them again, shall we...greed, lust, pride, wrath, envy, gluttony, and sloth. Just look at the environment alone, and tell me the effects of these intentions. Hmmm...could it be the DEATH of the planet? Uh, yep. So basically, sin is like spiritual pollution, and it leads to the death of your soul. Get it?”

    And what authority are you on the bible to tell anyone anything about the hidden meaning behind any verse? If I were to take a guess, it’s because in your mind, whatever god you have dreamed up is perfect in every way, and no matter what the scripture says, your god isn’t like that. It’s a common thing for people to define Yahweh to suit their own purposes, I see it all the time. You’re right, I have no understanding of your interpretation of Yahweh, but I bet my understanding of Yahweh is closer to the ancient Jews understanding of him. And what are you talking about misusing or violating natural laws? Oh, like the law of gravity? I guess you could misuse it and throw yourself over a cliff, but that really isn’t a violation of a misuse of the gravity now is it? And those “spiritual laws” you speak of are basically along the lines of common sense. We don’t need some book to tell us not to kill people or steal, nor do we need some set of sins made by some anonymous person to tell us how would should act. Besides, there is no such thing as a soul, it’s just a concept invented by ancient people to explain why we stop living. It literally means breath. Like how when you die your body looks the same, yet you aren’t breathing, that’s how the concept of souls got started.

    “You know, God isn't like some big drill sargent in the sky? So, uh, do you get God bellowing in your ear, commanding you to kill babies alot or what? You're not seeing the big picture at all. You really need to have the right intentions when you read the Bible, and you definately don't. You won't get it unless you really want to get it. That's how faith works. What do you think?”

    No, your god Yahweh has never spoken to me. As you said “You won’t get it unless you really want to get it”, proof enough that your religion is a bunch of crap some ancient Jews believed.


    John 20:31 - But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

    [This message has been edited by Someone7 (edited August 21, 2000).]
     
  14. ilgwamh Fallen Angel Registered Senior Member

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    "He ordered the death of infants?"

    [This applies to more than just this quote]

    Mind comming up with a source for your epistemology? Explain to me how you know your thoughts correspond to reality. Explain to me why the reaction in your brain that produced the thoughts about God ordering the deaths of babies are different from other chemical reactions like baking soda and water. You think killing babies is wrong. That "thinking" was just a chemical reaction in your brain. Explain to me why the chemical reaction that produces your thoughts can be true or false and be wrong or right. Aren't those reactions just reactions and neither true nor false? How can one chemical reaction be labeled morally bad while the other is not? Aren't both just chemical reactions? Why do you not attach moral questions to stuff like the earth's rotation or bubble gum? Once you come up with a source for your epistemolgy then post its definition of good and bad. Then you can talk about God ordering the death of infants. Until that day comes it would be a lot wiser to not build your house on the sand.

    Think of it like this. Two guys are debating God's existence. The one with better evidence and stuff would be considered winning or more on the money as in his material corresponds better with the actual facts or physical reality. Now we have a bottle of pepsi and coke that were shaken up going off at the same time. Would we say one bottle is better than the other or that the pepsi's fizzings correspondd to the actual facts and physical reality better? No we would not. Why do you attach moral and true false claims to human beings? I'll be waitng for your overlying truth.

    Peace,
    Vinnie
     
  15. Someone7 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    123
    Ignoring the issue outright and asking a question that has only one (or no) answer to suit your purpose of refuting my argument, nice trick, but I’m not buying what you’re selling.

    How do I know killing babies is wrong? Are you trying to imply you believe otherwise? Good and bad, right and wrong, these concepts are subjective. The reason I think killing babies is wrong is undoubtedly the same reason why you think it is wrong, whatever the reason may be (this is where you make an argument saying there is no way of knowing what is right or wrong).

    I’m not falling for this trick. I’ll talk about Yahweh killing babies knowing full well no one on this forum thinks taking the life of an infant is right (again, this is where you make an argument saying there is no way of knowing what is right and wrong).

    Think of it like this. You brain is in a jar, being feed information to make it appear like you’re experiencing real life. Can you really not know you brain isn’t in a jar? No, just like you can’t know anything for certain. Whether or not you, me, Yahweh, Earth, science, etc, etc, actually exist isn’t 100% certain, just like what is good and bad, right and wrong, isn’t 100% certain. It’s a lame argument, just like yours.
     
  16. Tony H2o Registered Senior Member

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    441
    Someone7 / Infinity / aaaaaaaaaaaa

    Same question different verse, remember?

    Or maybe you all just sound way the same????

    Go figure?

    Allcare

    Tony H2o

    P.S If your wondering what I'm talking about send me mail and I'll explain.
     
  17. Searcher Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    651
    Vinnie,

    Yahweh is like the parent who admonishes his children to do as he says, not as he does. Can you see this? He is the one who supposedly draws all the lines, and then steps over them himself. Who can respect that?

    Tony,

    I didn't get the impression that Someone is the same as Infinity or aaaaaaaaaaaaaaa...

    aaaaaaaaaaaaaa...never has anything to say except "prove it", and has never made any contribution to any discussion that took place here - ever. Infinity sounds like a young kid, and makes the kinds of contributions that kids make when engaged in adult conversations (nothing wrong with being a kid, but kids generally come across on a message board as being, well, kids - not adults). I really don't see Someone's posts in the same light at all. Why do you?

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    An ye harm none, do what ye will.
     
  18. tablariddim forexU2 Valued Senior Member

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    4,795
    The sad fact of the matter is that the atrocities and genocides performed 'in the name of God'are not confined to the OT. They are happening right now in Indonesia. A very good and trusted friend of mine has sent me a very long report along with harrowing photographs of his travels and meetings there during August. He had met with a lot of Muslims and got the stories from people actually taking part in this bloodbath.

    THE FOLLOWING EXCERPT MAY SHOCK!!!

    ----They threw grenades into the Mosque injuring most of the four hundred inside. Many were women and children who were there, not only to join in these special prayers, but for safety as well. As the grenades exploded Amrullah leapt out of a window. The Muslims were outnumbered by perhaps as many as twenty to one. As the attackers entered the Mosque they began their gruesome task of butchery.

    Helpless, Amrullah witnessed the rape of his younger sister. When the rapist had satisfied himself, he cut off both the girl's breasts. As she lay there, he pierced her through the stomach with a spear. Her husband lay decapitated nearby, and their young child lay cut in half. Alive and screaming, the terrified child had been tossed high into the air inside the Mosque, and as she fell, was cut in two with a samurai sword.

    Many men, women and children died this way.

    The attackers were of all ages, from young children upwards. Christian women, breasts bared and skirts hoisted around their waists tried to entice Muslim men into forgetting themselves so that their companions could kill the disorientated men without a fight.

    Children were tossed into the air and impaled on spears. They were then twirled around and around like rag dolls, some of them still alive. Two heavily pregnant women were slashed open so that their yet unborn children fell to the ground. They were then cut into pieces and bits of their bodies were hurled around the mosque.

    Two trucks of pigs were brought in and slaughtered. These too were cut into pieces and thrown around the Mosque and the village. This was designed to create further mental havoc within the Muslim community.----

    Yes folks, this is the reality of a 'holy war'.
    2000 AD or 2000 BC, what's the difference? The damned message has been written down for posterity and will always be abused or misinterpreted. Didn't God know this was going to happen? Or does he mean it to happen, 'in his name' in 2000? Or is it our fall from grace and unwitting worship of satan (ha ha ha) that forces these otherwise very friendly, single race people to butcher each other one minute and then help each other clear up the mess together the next? Both sides apparently, 'in the name of God'.
    It's weird beyond belief but this is a typical example of what happens when the huge majority of people take their (Judeao/Christian/Islamist) religion seriously and do it, 'by the book'.
     
  19. MoonCat Registered Senior Member

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    400
    Oh, this is awful.

    I can't...ugh.

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    I will be lighting candles tonight for these poor people, may the Goddess show them the way to their afterlife, whatever it may be, and ease their families' sorrows.

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  20. Lori Registered Senior Member

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    Searcher,

    Man, what is the malfunction here? This is really, really easy ok, just apply some damn common sense already. GOD DOESN'T KILL BABIES, WE DO!!!!! ISN'T THAT F'ING OBVIOUS ALREADY?????? If we all didn't sin, babies wouldn't ever die, get it? And no, what are you retarded? How in the hell can a baby sin? Or how in the hell can a baby "get saved"? Babies are our innocent victims. What the hell is so difficult to understand about this exactly? Sometimes I swear I'm talking to a brick wall or something? I'm sorry, but honestly, couldn't you all try a little harder? I'm really tired of trying to argue against this type of illogical nonsense. Use your brains people!!!!

    And Someone,

    Excuse me, but you definately do sound like you're very bitter regarding God, it's kind of obvious, and I'm not quite sure why you're denying it. And why exactly would I be angry over killing my child? Sad, heart-broken, overwhelmingly sorry yes. Does it scare me? Yes. Do I understand how it happened? Yes. A denial of God, that's how. Do you hear me out here blaming God for what I chose to do? No you don't. Why? Because He was screaming in my ear not to do it, that it was wrong, the entire time, and I ignored Him and did it anyway. Do you hear me out here blaming Satan for what I chose to do? No you don't. Why? Because I, and I alone, made that decision, that's why. Free will. Right and wrong. Good and evil. Yea right, everything's f'ing relative...in your pipe dream anyway.

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    You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

    [This message has been edited by Lori (edited August 22, 2000).]
     
  21. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    Calm down, Lori ....

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    I think the issue here is that people assume their right to kill in the name of God Most Merciful because they have literary precedent in their holy books. In the case of the religions of Abraham, this is most definitely true. Fundamentalist violence does not require, and is usually not capable of complex justifications. But the violent fundamentalists do take their holy books very seriously, and as Someone has pointed out, God has ordered His People to kill, and to do so savagely and without remorse.

    God says a lot of things.

    thanx,
    Tiassa

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  22. ilgwamh Fallen Angel Registered Senior Member

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    "Think of it like this. You brain is in a jar, being feed information to make it appear like you’re experiencing real life. Can you really not know you brain isn’t in a jar? No, just like you can’t know anything for certain. Whether or not you, me, Yahweh, Earth, science, etc, etc, actually exist isn’t 100% certain, just like what is good and bad, right and wrong, isn’t 100% certain. It’s a lame argument, just like yours."

    No, mine isn't an appeal to "what ifs." You need to provide a source for your epistemology. My questions were valid. There is absolutely no evidence that my brain is in a jar being fed information. I just can't refute that. The problem with moral dilemnas like the God killing the infants one is that they are highly subjective. We may all think killing babies is wrong but I want you to provide the reason why. You want to call God the baby killing women murdering petty God. Well, with your godly wisdom stand up like a man and explain things. Its kind of like when Job questioned God, God asked him were you there when I made the mountains? Were you there when I formed the seas? Did you stretch out the heavens?

    Say, I am someone and I know it is infinitely wrong to kill babies because with my infinite knowledge I posit it to be ifinitely so.

    I didn't even provide the "real" answer to the question asked. I didn't sense any sincerity in the questions so I just showed how foundationless these claims really are.

    "Ignoring the issue outright and asking a question that has only one (or no) answer to suit your purpose of refuting my argument, nice trick, but I’m not buying what you’re selling."

    I'm not selling anything. If you can't provide a source for your epistemology then maybe you shouldn't be appealing to moral arguments which require an overlying truth. If your sincere I will be sincere and genuinely try my best to answer your question. If your not then I will hit your objection in its weakest spot and show how baseless it really is.

    "How do I know killing babies is wrong? Are you trying to imply you believe otherwise? Good and bad, right and wrong, these concepts are subjective. The reason I think killing babies is wrong is undoubtedly the same reason why you think it is wrong, whatever the reason may be"

    Shoot a baby and shoot a wall. In both scenarios we have forces and chemical reactions at work. In one scenario the wall is shot and the other a baby. Both being composed of atoms. Explain to me how we know human life is important or special.

    "(this is where you make an argument saying there is no way of knowing what is right or wrong)."

    I didn't say that. When you come up with a source for your epistemology you will be an iron clad theist. Then you should realize that arguing with or disagreeing with the source that provides you with your knowledge is intellectually dishonest and plain out ridiculous. Its sawing off the branch that you are sitting on.

    Peace,
    Vinnie
     
  23. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    37,882
    But Vinnie--

    What if the guy with the better "evidence" has to assume it's all true? That's the problem with two people talking about God--nothing can be established without faith.

    Thus, if an atheist comes unprepared to a debate and simply says, "Nothing can be proven about god," while his opponent lays out two-thousand years of documentation .... well, the thing is that you have to believe that documentation to be true. I can pick up a rock and drop it to show you gravity.

    thanx,
    Tiassa

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