Yahweh, the baby killing God.

“No, mine isn't an appeal to "what ifs." You need to provide a source for your epistemology. My questions were valid. There is absolutely no evidence that my brain is in a jar being fed information. I just can't refute that. The problem with moral dilemnas like the God killing the infants one is that they are highly subjective. We may all think killing babies is wrong but I want you to provide the reason why. You want to call God the baby killing women murdering petty God. Well, with your godly wisdom stand up like a man and explain things. Its kind of like when Job questioned God, God asked him were you there when I made the mountains? Were you there when I formed the seas? Did you stretch out the heavens?”

I wasn’t showing you that your argument was an appeal to “what ifs”, I was attempting to show you that your question is just as meaningless as that one. What source do you want me to cite in my reasoning that killing babies is wrong? Anything I cite for this moral reasoning can be questioned, because it isn’t a “ground for morality” like your holy book is supposed to be. It’s a question that leads to no where (or conveniently leads to your holy book, in your own reasoning at least), just like “what if” questions. You’re using the subjectivity of these concepts to its fullest, it’s just as lame as using the “what if” questions.

“I'm not selling anything. If you can't provide a source for your epistemology then maybe you shouldn't be appealing to moral arguments which require an overlying truth. If your sincere I will be sincere and genuinely try my best to answer your question. If your not then I will hit your objection in its weakest spot and show how baseless it really is.”

What is an “overlying truth”? How do you know there is a such thing as a “overlying truth” when true and false are just as subjective as good and bad, right and wrong?

“Shoot a baby and shoot a wall. In both scenarios we have forces and chemical reactions at work. In one scenario the wall is shot and the other a baby. Both being composed of atoms. Explain to me how we know human life is important or special.”

In the grand scope of things, human life isn’t special (we are just a just a speck of a speck of a speck of dust in this universe). We know it is wrong because we just do. Chalk it up to evolution. Pack animals don’t kill each other for no good reason because to do so would be bad for the group. Since we are also social animals, it’s probably hardwired into us to not kill each other (or you can believe we got knowledge of good and evil from a couple people eating a piece of fruit, makes no difference to me).

“I didn't say that. When you come up with a source for your epistemology you will be an iron clad theist. Then you should realize that arguing with or disagreeing with the source that provides you with your knowledge is intellectually dishonest and plain out ridiculous. Its sawing off the branch that you are sitting on.”

There is no source of morality (not the type you’re asking me for anyway). Morality is subjective in the extreme. And yes, it will lead continuously to statements asking me for this magical source of morality, because in your mind, without it, there is no way of knowing what is right and wrong.

[This message has been edited by Someone7 (edited August 22, 2000).]

 

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

“Man, what is the malfunction here? This is really, really easy ok, just apply some damn common sense already. GOD DOESN'T KILL BABIES, WE DO!!!!! ISN'T THAT F'ING OBVIOUS ALREADY?????? If we all didn't sin, babies wouldn't ever die, get it? And no, what are you retarded? How in the hell can a baby sin? Or how in the hell can a baby "get saved"? Babies are our innocent victims. What the hell is so difficult to understand about this exactly? Sometimes I swear I'm talking to a brick wall or something? I'm sorry, but honestly, couldn't you all try a little harder? I'm really tired of trying to argue against this type of illogical nonsense. Use your brains people!!!!”

Yes, Yahweh never killed any infants outright, but ordering the deaths of them isn’t any better. In fact, Saul didn’t even become king of Israel like Yahweh promised him, because he didn’t kill enough (he spared some of the sheep and oxen). There is no moral to this story, you’re just making one up.

“Excuse me, but you definately do sound like you're very bitter regarding God, it's kind of obvious, and I'm not quite sure why you're denying it. And why exactly would I be angry over killing my child? Sad, heart-broken, overwhelmingly sorry yes. Does it scare me? Yes. Do I understand how it happened? Yes. A denial of God, that's how. Do you hear me out here blaming God for what I chose to do? No you don't. Why? Because He was screaming in my ear not to do it, that it was wrong, the entire time, and I ignored Him and did it anyway. Do you hear me out here blaming Satan for what I chose to do? No you don't. Why? Because I, and I alone, made that decision, that's why. Free will. Right and wrong. Good and evil. Yea right, everything's f'ing relative...in your pipe dream anyway.”

Yes, I’m the one who is angry, yet you’re the one using “f’ing” and insulting people.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

Someone--

As much as I hate to put it this way: get used to it. After being told that it's her sense of humor enough times, you'll start to believe it.

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

Remember, the only way to get over a problem is to decide not to have a problem. Or something. I've never understood that, myself, but I'm lazy, fat-headed, and stupid; and occasionally we all get to laugh when she calls me something worse.

I would advise that you ignore her, but I must admit that I can't take that advice myself.

thanx,
Tiassa

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

------------------
We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

 

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

Your not stupid.

 

Infinity,

Who's not stupid?


Searcher,

Just a hunch, (shrug shoulders)


I think someone got it right when they said it was not God but man who killed. Man who having turned from God and followed his own path will always reap what he sows.

The answer to these questions is far deeper than I have net time to share, later maybe?

Allcare

Tony

 

Tony--

At its heart, I think you're right, and Lori's right with her assessment. However, many of the people in question, especially as pertains to Someone's topic post, allegedly performed their atrocities not only in the "Name of God", but as per God's orders.

I will not invoke Nuremberg here, except to say that I don't think it's as much an excuse to say, "I was just following orders."

If God ordered you to smite the sinners, to destroy everything they had, to execute their men and women and children ... would you? After all, it's God, and I say that without my usual, grinning sarcasm.

thanx,
Tiassa

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

------------------
We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

 

"At its heart, I think you're right, and Lori's right with her assessment. However, many of the people in question, especially as pertains to Someone's topic post, allegedly performed their atrocities not only in the "Name of God", but as per God's orders."

Yes, some people here are conveniently ignoring the painfully obvious.

 

It may have little to do with ignoring. It's a problem we encounter with allegedly literalist interpretations of the Bible. For instance, Lori and I were arguing ... uh, something ... in another topic and I mentioned an old Ned Flanders quote from The Simpsons about contradictions in the Bible. Lori doesn't see them, though I see definite conflicts between the wrathful god of the Jews and the forgiving god that is the modern interpretation of mainstream Christianity. For instance, what was so wrong with forgiveness that the Amalekites had to die?

Think of those who see Jesus foretold by the OT prophets. A Christian often sees Isaiah and others as prophecies of Christ, so that in many Christian churches, Jewish texts such as the prophetic books are part of the Christian glory, thus proving the divine miracle of Jesus. Apparently, the Jews, whose culture wrote and developed these tales, are irrelevant to the actual meaning of the prophetic books.

Are you familiar with Lv. 21:16-ff? When God tells Moses to tell Aaron that none of the priests can be handicapped, for they will (somehow) "profane what I, the Lord, maketh holy." The more liberated, the less conservative, the less literal the interpretation of that passage, the better it is explained. I've seen people back away from the question when a simple answer about priests would do. Or the more complex answer about Jewish superstitions and so forth that barely makes sense.

But it has something to do, I think, with A) reading the Bible "literally", and B) wanting God to be nothing but the good stuff.

I don't think people are ignoring the point, per se, but I would say that I've met people whose theology is so tightly reconciled with itself that the question simply cannot occur to them. (If you've never seen, conceived, or othewise experienced something, how can you describe it? Simply, such paradoxes are impossible to some people.

I'll stop here before I lose what pretense of neutrality I've tried to maintain. I don't know why it happens that way, but I've seen people look past the carrot when they're starving. You can lead a horse to water, but what happens if it can't see the river?

Ok ... darn. See what I mean? Rambling again.

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

thanx,
Tiassa

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

------------------
We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

 

Tab

I think you’ve` hit the nail exactly on the head. 2000BC or 2000AD. It`s all bollocks. We haven’t grown at all! The horrendous atrocities you describe, nauseates me to my very soul, and it is so patently obvious that the whole religious trick is severely flawed and misunderstood.

But your story really brought back an experience and accompanying emotion that I will never forget or deny as the truth for as long as I live. I was a soldier in an religious/political war.(what`s the difference?) After a solid 14-month period of serious training and indoctrination to make me a robotic soldier, I was sent into the battle zone. When we got into our first enemy contact on the front, I remember experiencing a powerful manifestation of truth … as we were the vastly superior force, I found myself in the emotional shoes of the enemy, and for the life of me, I could not shoot at these people. I just lay low and moved with the line, until it was over. Nobody noticed, as the action was intense. I did not doubt then, and I do not doubt know, that I did the right thing. My heart/sprit (not God, His dogma, or the Government applying His dogma) told me the Truth. That taking another life was THE fundamental sin in life. After that I vowed only do defend myself if I needed to, but never to act in an offensive way. In other words I rejected the religious/political indoctrination I was submitted to and acted from the righteousness of my soul. No words can describe the absolute certainty that permeated my body and soul, even under circumstances that threatened my life, that I was acting in the way of Truth. Luckily for me I survived in this fashion without being thrown in the slammer, although I came close on 2 occasions, labelled as a subversive soldier. Today the wheel has turned, the enemy is the new Democratic government, that’s doing a fine job of running the country. So what, at the end of the day is it all about? – religious dogmatic garbage. But the Truth shall set you free!

Mooncat

I note your`e one of the few here who can see past selfish religious dogma, and express warm human compassion to the victims in Tabs horrendous story. Can you imagine how those mothers must have felt, seeing their children die in such an appalling manner. Yup … I sure do have a problem with that particular god.

Take care

 

Tab,

Thank you for bringing this to light. The story you have shared sickens me to my soul, but it's a story that needs to be told. As a mother, I cannot imagine the horror of living through that day. As a human being, I cannot for the life of me understand man's inhumanity to man, nor can I understand a God who demands it.

------------------
An ye harm none, do what ye will.

 

Lori,

Isn't it equally obvious to you that it was YOUR God who ordered the executions? At least that's what it says in the Bible. Or are you saying that you reject the parts of the Bible that aren't very pretty?

------------------
An ye harm none, do what ye will.

 

Stretch,

Thanks for the kind words, that story really got me to the core. I don't care what faith you are, or what your moral beliefs are, I cannot see how massacring whole families, and (shudder) pregnant women could be construed as the "right" thing to do. There is a certain value to life, any life, that ought to be respected and viewed as precious... At least that's my view. I can't blame any particular God for it though, I think it's an example of people getting out of touch with their own basic humanity. Aye, there's a lot in the bible that can, unfortunately, support such views, but it still takes that seperation to make a person capable of such henious acts. Of course, I am of the opinion that the bible is totally flawed, and mankind used "the word of God" to justify all kinds of awful things, which got incorporated as "gods' wishes" in the bible. I always have to keep in mind that history is written by the winners, and I feel the bible is no exception to that.

I can't remember who said it, but the line about "any man's death diminishes me, for I am part of humanity" (or however it precisely goes) has really been sticking out at me lately. These deaths happened in a foreign land, to people I will probably never meet, yet it is my concern as well. Like a ripple in an ocean, it's effects are felt on all shores, even though it may seem invisible. I am kin to every human on this planet, for better or for worse, I can't escape that - nor do I wish to. I think that's perhaps my current lesson - I keep getting that thrust upon me lately, and I'm trying to see beyond my own nose, my own block, my own city, state and country, to discover why this is so blasted important. This story perhaps answered part of that for me.

How much easier is it to vicitimize the "others" to benefit "you and yours"? Like cut-throat corporations that would rather screw the little guy so their stockholders have a few more pennies to rub together rather than make their products/services safer, kinder to the environment, or lower-priced so 'average joe' can get his piece of the pie? Corruption, everywhere. I am trying to make sure I NEVER forget that there is no such thing as "them" and "me" - it's all "us".

Sorry, I'm dragging this off-topic, but this is hitting on something that's been rattling about in my head recently.

 

Ok wait a minute...nobody's stupid ok? And I am not trying to insult. Someone comes out here, knowing and understanding nothing about the Christian God or Christianity as Jesus taught it, armed with some scripture that he/she totally doesn't understand, and screams "Your God kills babies!!!!" No, uh, that's not insulting at all. Nope, not one little bit. How about instead of stupid, we say ignorant of certain understanding? Better? And as for the f'ing....I'm just going to say that you guys are the biggest bunch of lightweight pussy-boys I've ever met! LMAO! And of course, I mean that affectionately.

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

Ok, now what you're missing here is the perspective of God's "orders". God's "orders" ARE the spiritual law, which He created, which I spoke of in my previous post. If sin is committed, there are effects of said sin. Why? Because God, in His creation of the universe, and in His creation of spiritual laws, COMMANDED it to be so, and IT IS GOOD. It's not like God stood there and actually verbally commanded it like some drill sargent. You're missing the whole point. You're being way, way, way, way, way too elementary about this. You're approaching your understanding of God in the same way that the "God hate fags" people, and spoon fed illiterate church people do. So, Someone, why don't you join a church? Your approach to learning would fit right in.

------------------
You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

 

So when the Jews smote kingdoms and killed everything, this was a good thing? (I'm trying not to make the direct association to "it was GOOD", but that leaves me envisioning the Jews as God's executioners, which we know isn't exactly fair.) But if God's orders are spiritual law, and the law of God is good, then so it is that the execution of those laws are in the favorable "conscience" of God. This, I believe, is part of the issue at hand.

thanx,
Tiassa



------------------
We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

 

Good point. I see what you're asking. As for my personal perspective on this...I happen to believe that the negative consequences of sin are good. The negative consequences of sin are the only thing that keeps my ass in line. Not because I'm a bad or mean or evil person, but because I'm afraid that without the consequences, we would never know the difference. The whole aspect of sin is not a good or pleasant thing, nor the consequences of it, and that is what I believe is one of the most major points made in the OT. But for sin to exist, like for the good/evil, right/wrong, holy/sinful dichotomy to exist, logically there has to be different effects of a choice between the two. This is where the whole everything's relative arguement breaks apart with me. It's like you want the effects of good intentions to be the same as the effects of bad intentions, and it's just not that way. It's just not. I mean, everything's not relative with scientific laws right? So why in the world would spiritual law be relative? It's just not the way the universe works you know? God hates sin remember? The whole point of the OT? God has tried deparately to teach us...we have the negative consequences of sin in our face 24/7, and yet listen to yourself, listen to others out here...it's all "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil", and then you want to have a hard on about God and how mean He is???? I don't get it at all. It's like you guys just don't want to own up to the responsibility or something. I'm sorry I get so frustrated, but you have to understand, as much as I've suffered, and pondered, and prayed, and thought, and thought, and thought, and searched my soul with the most sincere, and humble, and honest intentions, I know what I'm talking about, and it's just that this concept, this stuff that we're talking about, seems so elementary to me. It wasn't always that way, believe me. But one day, if you're really sincere about knowing God, it will just slap you right in the face, and all of a sudden things just "click", like riding a bike or something. That's why I keep harping on the personal relationship with Jesus thing. It's what it's all about. You can't get faith out of a book...it has to come from your heart. That's where understanding really comes from.

------------------
You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

 

MoonCat

Thanks ... you`re an ancient soul, and all I can say is "you have got your heart and your soul right" ... and as Jim Morrison said (forgive me) "I want to hear ... the scream of the butterfly ... etc."
I sometimes think it is compassion like yours, that drives the very essence of our cosmos.

And as an aside, with all due respect (I mean that) the Christian response to this thread has been really lame, and uninspiring.

Take care

Take care

 

Stretch,

Aye, thanks again *tipping my hat*. I do try to keep my head and my heart in line with eachother, call it my "religious duty".

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

I forget and screw up a lot too though, I'm not perfect by a loooong shot.

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

Lori,

I see what you're saying, but I would call it by a different name. You call it 'sin', I call it harm. Causing harm creates drastic repercussions, often much worse than the original harm - us pagan types call that concept "the law of three". Not a law in the sense someone dictated it, but just an observed part of how the world works, like the 'law of gravity'. Your mythology states it was directly dictated by God, in my myths similar circumstances are seen as a natural consequence given our human nature.

Of course, me being the pagan I am, the natural consequences seems to be the only plausible theory, much more likely than God dictating the dispicable slaughter of infants and adults alike. But, to each their own, I won't dispute the accuracy of the "who" because it strikes me as irrelevant - the important thing is the lesson behind the myth. (or historical fact, however you choose to interpret it).

I do wonder the same thing Tiassa asked of Tony though - what would you personally do, Lori, if God demanded you murder a whole town - women, men, children, infants, cats, dogs...the whole enchilada. Would you? Could you? (uh, oh, I'm goin' Dr. Seuss here...)

 

Hi Everyone,

Well we are all fairly seasoned veterans here, we have all or most of us been around this place to see the same questions being asked time and again. They may have differing references to versus or quotes but the fundamental question I see time and again is why?

Why does God order babies killed?

Why does God decide that women and children should be destroyed?

Why does God in the OT appear so barbaric and unforgiving when compared to the Jesus of the NT?

And I sincerely appreciate the fact that people are sick and tired of the cheap lolly pop answers.

Because God is God and can do what He wants..................part right, but wrong!

Because God didn't do it but men did.................part right, but wrong!

Because God created man He can destroy him...............part right, but wrong!


People, I am going to stretch myself further than I have before and try to give some valid understanding of these things. I'll try not to get lost in the sea of my own thoughts, but at the same time I know in trying to do this I will fall short.

Most here know me to a degree, most here have seen the things I have said in the part both right and wrong. Most here have heard me say time and again that I ask God hard questions, me a mere mortal, what right do I have to demand answers of the God I love and trust? These very questions are the ones that swirl through my heart and mind while I lay in my bed at night. These are the very things that I seek to try to understand, try to comprehend in the light of my understanding of my Lord and God, in the light of trying to place myself in the very shoes of every individual I see in my minds eye, in the light of the social, political, religious and historical context that they occurred in. But alas my mind is dull, and no sooner than a glimmer of hope, no sooner than a knowing of the answer it evaporates and I drift off into oblivious sleep, waking in the morn with my mind madly and in futility trying to piece together the moments before slumber. That one moment, that instant of knowing, the thoughts that were strung together and gave me the understanding and knowledge that my God had heard my hearts cry. That moment when all the turmoil of my daily life was quietened enough for Him to speak directly to me, and for me to hear. And so I struggle, knowing but not knowing how to verbalise the knowing. And so I attempt to piece together the fleeting thoughts that flood my heart and mind as slumber encompasses me and as I whisper my prayer, my Lord, my God, my King, I love you.

And the question remains when my mind is alert, why? Lord for what purpose? For what part of you have I not seen? My prayer is to know you yet the very fabric I am made of is so far from you. What barriers still exist between us that I should struggle so? What is there within me that causes my understanding to be so dull? What is it that drives me, even us to seek the answers to seemingly unanswerable questions? Why Lord? Why? Like many of you I also have cried out for the answers, but different from some I still love my God the God who's name is slandered, who's ways are not understood, who men want to call into account.

Why do we not understand?

Why do we not see who He is and why He does what He does?

Why do we call Him, our creator into account?

By what right do I do this, what right do I have to assault His very name, to almost demand an answer?

People, we are not so very different from each other, are we?

And an answer came to me, an answer that.... well I may have looked on as a simplistic answer, as a answer that held no depth, as an answer that did not necessarily reveal to me that which I wanted and expected. A greater revelation of Him, a greater understanding of His very character and nature, a closer walk, a deeper love.

That is until I stopped and considered the very impact of the answer. That being the answer surrounds us and confronts us every day, it drives us to Him or it shys us away from Him, it confronts the very person we are and it calls into account the very things that we do. The answer is timeless through to creation, it has caused us every pain we have know and is as entwined in our lives as the blood in our veins. It appears as a lollipop answer until such time as proper thought and consideration is given it, something that does not happen because we as humans shy away from the very act of admitting it and from the very fact of its existence. This answer that I speak of is the very key to understanding why? But without acknowledgment of its existence we will never understand why? Without the very act of it and the effect of it that ripples down through time as we know it, without an understanding of its origins and its originator, without these things we will continually discuss in ever decreasing circles the very acts that occur as a result of it. Acts that are clouded in sometimes vague and one sided accounts, acts that are carried out in the name of the one that is being served. Without understanding the very root cause, without acknowledgment of it, without this the events that have transpired and the very reason they transpired will be viewed never be viewed the same.

I have chosen to see this answer, I have and can make sense of these things when I consider the full context of what was being historically played out.

When doing so it brings me very much back to the very point that Tiassa and I once discussed in "Piers B and sundry mumbling" and from that point I and understanding I move forward into an understanding of why. From the point of understanding the who I see the why, from the point of seeing the why I understand the words spoken by Jesus "But he was a liar from the beginning" "the devil come to lie, kill and destroy, but I have come to give life".

The simple answer is sin. The complex questions are its origins and its effects on mankind throughout history. The complexity increases with our denial of it, increases with our understanding of it and its origins, of our knowledge of its effects that trickle down through time and effect seemingly innocent lives. A cancer to our existence, a disease without a cure that would surely result in the total destruction of humanity had it not been that God choose otherwise. With acknowledgment of it, without understanding its grip on us, without seeing that we have fallen and that because each of us, yes even the greatest have fallen short we will never truly understand or see the injustice caused by it. We will continually look to place blame and fault at the feet of another, one who in one breath we choose to not believe in then in the next we choose to call into account for the misery of mankind. Sound familiar?

People, I will not claim to understand the exact reason why God said destroy them, cut them off from the face of the earth, each and everyone of them. I will not claim to know the exact reasons for the actions taken, I have not studied the settings, I have not weighed the facts, I have not considered all things and I as a man who is flawed may not even come to the same conclusions as God did knowing all these things. But this I do know, that my God will call this answer into account, He will bring it before himself and those through whom it was committed to give account of their actions. My God is just and right and He will weigh all factors into His judgement. I know that my God is slow to anger and gives every opportunity for a person, a people, a race, a nation to turn from their own justification, to turn from the very answer they choose to ignore, He will with hold His hand for as long as He can before the cries of the innocent that have fallen because of sin assault His very mercy and love in their cries for justice.

It is a disease that has become so entwined in our lives that we barely see it anymore. It is a curse that has a flow on effect that results in final judgement. The Apostle Paul spoke of how the law that shows us the standard of God has become a curse due to its revealing of sin, that sin is called into account because of the law. He understood that sin was an incestuous thing that clung to us because of our history and it origin, of how it causes us to do the things that we don't want to do and stops us from doing the things we know we should do. Wretched man that I am he cried, who will save me? Praise be to the lamb of God who has conquered sin and death, his name is Jesus Christ.

Do you see what I am saying or trying to show you? In the OT God had to allow for the law to be the revelation of His person. And accordingly the law called sin into account, the law was to be held to and adhered and all that transgressed it were called into God's judgement, each person, each people group, each race and every nation. This was required to show the nations that the Lord God of Israel was a Holy God. The Lord God of Israel was the true God and that when a nation of people be it either Israel, Judah or another placed their trust in Him and followed in the Law of the Lord then none could stand before them or their mission. That mission being to bring this knowledge, the knowledge of the Lord, the ways of the Lord to the nations. And for this reason we see what we see recorded within the pages of the account, the bible. Do you think that God took pleasure in the destruction of people? Do you think He gloried in their demise? You would be right and wrong, there would be a satisfaction in Gods heart that evil had been quelled, but the satisfaction of this would be overwhelmed by the grief of loss, loss because the people failed to acknowledge the answer, the reason for their judgement. Sadness and sorrow because they had chosen to follow false god's that lead them to be a selfish race, a hardened heart and a barbaric nation. The Lord my God took no pleasure in the judgement placed bar that of seeing unrighteousness and evil halted. Judgement that was required and is required when this disease abounds, the disease of sin. Sin which is revealed by the law and which will be judged by it upon every life that has lived lest that life be found to be covered by His grace.

God has foreseen the state of mankind, He had to allow history to be played out so that sin could be seen for what it is, so that the nations could bear witness to the very reason that judgement was passed through the law. And in His knowing this, even before time began God placed into effect a plan, a plan that would unfold throughout history, a plan that would be shown in the very establishment of the law and would result in its fulfilment by bearing the curse of it. This plan will restore, it will renew, it will fulfil all that the law could not. The law was given for sin to be shown for what it is, and for the originator of it to be shown for who he is. Grace was and is given because without grace we are eternally lost, without God's gift of grace none of us can meet the burden of the law, not that we should take this grace for granted, not that we should not still try to live according to the morality of the law, but this grace was given because we have fallen short of the whole of the law. An in this grace we can pass through judgement by the law because the bearer and giver of this grace has taken the curse of the law upon His shoulders and in doing so as a flawless and sinless man has conquered the curse of the law which is judgement and death. This man being the Lord Jesus Christ. For there is none other, not one who could claim this, me, you, the greatest people through history have all fallen short and missed the mark, we have all been affected by the answer to the pain, sin.

God, my God in His infinite wisdom and knowledge conceived of this very plan for restoring mankind to Himself before mankind even became infected by the disease of sin. In doing so He never once transgressed any trait, and part of His character or nature that He alone lives true to. In doing so He the Lord of all Glory broke down and destroyed the works of the evil one, he was confounded and confused by his own delusions.

Jesus rose again, death could not hold Him down and He arose. The evil ones plan of destroying Jesus backfired, he chose to destroy an innocent man and in doing so the evil one failed to realise that the very reason for bringing Jesus to the cross was for the forgiveness of sin through the burden of the law being placed on an innocent sacrifice.

So why?

Why the death?

Why the destruction?

Why? Because sin is called into judgement by the law and word of God. That judgement is not always the way the God would emotionally choose to act, but He must act in accordance with the attributes of His character and nature that call sin into account and bear the emotional burden that results.

The answer is sin, we either choose to believe it or we choose to ignore it. Either way it catches up with us one day when we have to account for it.

Allcare

Tony H2o

 

"I was attempting to show you that your question is just as meaningless as that one."

Your attempt failed.

"What source do you want me to cite in my reasoning that killing babies is wrong?"

You made the claim. Substantiate it.

Anything I cite for this moral reasoning can be questioned, because it isn’t a “ground for morality” like your holy book is supposed to be. It’s a question that leads to no where (or conveniently leads to your holy book, in your own reasoning at least), just like “what if” questions. You’re using the subjectivity of these concepts to its fullest, it’s just as lame as using the “what if” questions."

Lame? If you can't provide a source for your epistemology then don't appeal to moral arguments. The problem with this is that in order to appeal to a moral argument you must claim infinite knowledge. You can chalk it up to evolution if you like but you still have the epistemology problem.

"What is an “overlying truth”? How do you know there is a such thing as a “overlying truth” when true and false are just as subjective as good and bad, right and wrong?"

The Bible. Any attempt tp discredit logic must use logic to discredit it. Our thoughts do correspond to reality. This has been shown over and over again. Atheists just have trouble finding a source for knowledge. The problem is you can't use moral arguments because you can't substantiate any of your moral premises.

"We know it is wrong because we just do."

I hope you don't speak for all atheists when you say stuff like that. I know the Bible is God's word. Why? Well I just do.

"Chalk it up to evolution."

Are we assuming macro-evolution as a fact?

"Pack animals don’t kill each other for no good reason because to do so would be bad for the group."

Would you mind defining bad? Or does bad mean "hindering life" in this scenario? Atheism tend to make up new meanings of words to suit their needs.

"Since we are also social animals, it’s probably hardwired into us to not kill each other "

he Bible says God "hardwired" his laws onto our hearts. At least Christians have a source for their epistemology. Much more plausible than saying we know so because we just do.

"(or you can believe we got knowledge of good and evil from a couple people eating a piece of fruit, makes no difference to me)."

You might want to restudy the fall. If they didn't know of good and evil how could they be held accountable for eating the fruit. Not totally sure but I think you have to dig deep on that one.

"Morality is subjective in the extreme."

And what does that tell you about this entire thread? Its subjective in the extreme. Thats given an atheistic worldview of course.

"And yes, it will lead continuously to statements asking me for this magical source of morality, because in your mind, without it, there is no way of knowing what is right and wrong."

And in your mind we know this because we just do.

"Thus, if an atheist comes unprepared to a debate and simply says, "Nothing can be proven about god," while his opponent lays out two-thousand years of documentation .... well, the thing is that you have to believe that documentation to be true. I can pick up a rock and drop it to show you gravity."

You can test that documentation as well. Is there reasonable ground to accept/reject it. Paul admonishes us to test everything and to hold on to that which is good.

There is a much better answer to the original question asked in this thread. I am sorry, I didn't see it as a sincere question. More like an attack on my petty women killing baby murdering God who I love more than anything else in the entire world and is the source of my love. Its an insult to me and most other Christians. A person honestly asking how could a loving God possibly do that or someone just wanting to discuss the issue is different. But when your not sincere and "attacking' I, as I said, will hit your stuff in its weakest spot. I am sorry you all had to see this type of answer from me.

Peace,
Vinnie

 

Tiassa,

Killing, in the OT, wasn't looked upon as a good thing was it? To me personally, the OT depicts exactly how important Jesus is as our Saviour, and what exactly we're being saved from, and exactly how devastingly destructive sin is. And yes, God "commanded" that to be so, as inherent in spiritual law...the laws of the universe. But you know how it is that there is always a dichotomy? For there to be light, there is dark...for there to be good, there is evil...for there to be life, there is death. The dark side is a necessary, or "truthful" alternative to the light, but it is not a necessary choice. The light, and the good, perpetuate eternal life, and balance in the universe...and the dark, the evil, perpetuates death and destruction. Yes, God "commanded" this to be so. Before Jesus Christ came and offerred up the ultimate sacrifice for our sins, things were different here. I'm grateful...eternally grateful, for the relationship that I have with Him. He makes all the stuff that confuses you guys make perfect sense to me. Knowing Him is like an epiphany, after epiphany, after epiphany...am I spelling that right? LOL!

Tiassa, you keep confusing me about the "talking to Jesus" thing. First you said that you talked to Him and you had this "understanding", which I was thrilled about. Then when I called you on it, you're all like, "well it could have been a halucination or a dream or whatever". Now, somewhere in here, you're back to the "I've talked to Jesus, did you forget?" So once and for all, for my sanity's sake, and so I know what the f I'm dealing with once and for all...could you please just make a decision, and let me know if you know Him or not? If you do, you'll know for sure, so...what's the deal? You tell me. It's almost like you want me to tell you? Sorry, can't do that...

Mooncat,

You act like that would be such an easy question to answer, like all cut and dry and black and white. First of all, if I ever got the "notion" to kill anyone, it would have to be in defense of someone else or myself, and I still wouldn't want to do it...it wouldn't be something "good". See, Jesus doesn't pop down for a prance with me every now and again like your "gods" do. He doesn't miraculously appear to me and bark orders. The closest thing I've gotten to an order is to write a book about the alien thing. If God ever placed in on my heart to kill, I would question it. Thou shalt not kill remember? I wouldn't ever question Him, but I would question whether the message was from Him. The fact is that God would never "instruct" me to kill anyone. But would I kill someone if that's what He wanted? Yes. Why? Not because He barked some order at me, but because He sent me in the path of someone who I would end up killing in defense, or by accident, or I don't know how...and I would probably not be aware of "God's commands". The whole world is "God's commands"...the whole universe and everything that happens in it...bad or good. Just always remember that good is an option all the time...and the bad is chosen, not by Him, but by us. He created the law and the consequences of it, which are perfect, which is what the Bible means by "good", and gave us free will. If the OT is actual history, then it's apparent that things were very different before Jesus came. That redemption wasn't so easy. The OT is harsh and difficult for me to relate to too, but everytime I hear the same scripture that you hear, all I can think of is how incredible God's grace is. And you think the opposite...that He's hateful. I just don't think you understand the meaning behind the message.

And how is it that his "law of threes" came about exactly? It sounds extremely arbitrary to me. Like somebody thought it just sounded kind of cool when they pulled it out of their rear.

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

------------------
You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.