Yahweh, the baby killing God.

To the christains....

If you found yourself fighting on the side of christainity in the account described by Tab, how many of you would have taken part???

 

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Matthew 26:
51 And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.
52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Mark 14:
47 And one of them that stood by drew a sword, and smote a servant of the high priest, and cut off his ear.

Luke 22:
49 When they which were about him saw what would follow, they said unto him, Lord, shall we smite with the sword?
50 And one of them smote the servant of the high priest, and cut off his right ear.
51 And Jesus answered and said, Suffer ye thus far. And he touched his ear, and healed him.

John 18:
10 Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus.
11 Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?


So many things done in His name, so many things said in His name, so many things claimed and so many things destroyed.....in His name.

When in reality it was never Him who instructed them.

We reap what we sow, we sow kindness and compassion then such shall we reap, we sow anger and arrogance then such shall we reap.

Live by the sword, die by the sword.

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I don't know if this question has been addressed in this thread already, but isn't it possible that, since so little of the bible is claimed as a first-hand account, that the people who slaughtered the innocent ones used god as a convenient justification for their actions? Must we assume that when entire nations were warred against that it was because god had told them to, and no political reasons were involved? Given that these people seemed to follow almost blindly whatever the priests said, isn't it possible that the priests were using the people's willingness to believe in order to further their own political and military aims?

In short, couldn't the guys who said "God said for us to..." have been lying?

Like the old song says, "People are people..."

[This message has been edited by Oxygen (edited August 24, 2000).]

 

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Lori,

Why do you think I was acting like that would be an easy answer? I'd hope it wasn't, if it were I'd be a bit afraid for you.

You dodged the question, more or less. I'm not talking about self defense, I'm talking about God/Jesus, in whatever form he would take so you'd know it was him, telling you specifically, "Lori, the Smiths across the street from you are evil, in league with Satan, and must be removed. I order you to march across the street with this butcher knife and slay them while they sleep; mother, father, daughter, and unborn baby, for the good of the Christian people." Farfetched, sure, but really, what would you do? Does this answer still apply

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"But would I kill someone if that's what He wanted? Yes. " You don't have to answer right away if you need to ponder it, I'm not trying to trick you or something.

"See, Jesus doesn't pop down for a prance with me every now and again like your "gods" do"

I'm sorry to hear that. I bet he's a great dancer. Maybe next time my Lord & Lady visit, I can ask them to bring him along.

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Actually, they haven't stopped by recently. Perhaps that's a sign I'm on the right track at the moment. And if you're trying to annoy/insult me with that line, it's not gonna work, toots.

"The OT is harsh and difficult for me to relate to too, but everytime I hear the same scripture that you hear, all I can think of is how incredible God's grace is. And you think the opposite...that He's hateful. I just don't think you understand the meaning behind the message."

Actually, you've got me wrong here. I don't think that way, not anymore, not since my Lady put my head on straight some months ago. My feeling is that it's humans using the "word of God" to justify their own agendas, just like in Tab's awful story. (kind of what Oxygen was getting at, I believe) I doubt any God had anything to do with that slaughter. A flood or an earthquake or a plague, that seems more like what a God would do, instead of roping the locals into his dirty work.

"And how is it that his "law of threes" came about exactly? It sounds extremely arbitrary to me. Like somebody thought it just sounded kind of cool when they pulled it out of their rear."

Firstly, "his" who?? It came about because that's what people observed. It's generally recognized (amongst the pagan community, that is) that the actual quantitative amount of karmic backlash is impossible to guage accurately, so the "law of threes" is used as an accepted "working theory" - it is not precise by any means, but it is no less real. If you honestly think about it, I bet you'll see it in your own life as well.

 

Of course they were lying. It's like all the shit going down in Indonesia at the moment, d'you think God is actually telling the Christians to butcher the Muslims or vice versa? Of course not, the truth of the matter is that there happen to be vast foreign (Western) financial concerns that wish to carve up the country for their own benefit and with the aid and assistance of the Sultan and the whole corrupt establishment are using the auspices of a holy war to change the demography in order to suit their own purposes.

Simple jungle people who have been ensnared by the two major Western religions, tend to be very sincere about their faith and take their religion very seriously. This is where the 'holy men' come in to do their dirty work, inciting hatred and murder because God, Allah, whatever decree'd it. The holy men are of course, part of the corrupt establishment, the Islamists in Indonesia usually teach that killing is a sin, but now they teach that it is a sin, except when they kill a Christian!!!?

The people don't even know why they're fighting each other and simply believe it's God's will (both sides).

 

Mooncat,

I'm not trying to annoy you really. I'm just trying to explain that your "instruction" and my "instruction" come in different forms. Mine is like a very strong intuition, that requires prayer and heavy thought, and yours seems more like a classroom dictation, or a lecture to me. Maybe I'm wrong. It just seems like you're suggesting that God's gonna come down on a lightning bolt and bark an order at me, and that's just not the way He works. That's how I know you're not getting your stuff from the right source remember? Anyway, let's not go there again huh? The fact is that God would never tell me to kill someone. Whether they are in a league with Satan or not. If someone was in such a situation, then what God would want me to do, would be to witness to them. Now if I went across the street and blew their heads off with my .38, that wouldn't be much of a witness now would it? He would want me to love them...to try to show them His love. To accept them, and to witness, that's it. No preaching, no judging, no killing, no funny looks, no snubbed noses...just love. And also, one thing that's very, very important. To be a witness is a GIVEN if you're a Christian. It's just what you're supposed to do, and it's supposed to be clear to you from the Bible. Now, God will help YOU do that, by working on YOUR problems, to make YOU a better witness. But BELIEVE ME, God never, ever, ever deals with YOU about SOMEONE ELSE'S sin. Never. I was always wishing He would when me and the hubby were having problems...I always wanted Him to do this or that with Steve, or I always wanted to talk about him with God, and He wouldn't have it. It was none of my business see? If Steve wanted to hear God, then that was his path, and God deals with everyone separately. So God would never talk to me about my neighbors problems or sins or Satanism or whatever...He would talk to them, and if they didn't want to listen, then that would be their choice. It's just an impossible question to answer MC cause God just doesn't work that way. That's why I get so frustrated when you guys "go off" about "the killing God of the OT", and acting like He barks commands at people. I just know it's not true....from personal experience...it's just not how He works.

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You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

 

Okay...but that's not what I got from those bible verses Someone posted. To me, it DID sound like God specifically said - you guys go wipe out that town. Can you clarify that for me, if that's not how it works, how did that happen??

"...and yours seems more like a classroom dictation, or a lecture to me. Maybe I'm wrong"

Aye, ye are wrong.

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"That's how I know you're not getting your stuff from the right source remember? Anyway, let's not go there again huh?

Easier said than done, apparently. Lemme just say this, you know you're right & I'm wrong, I know I'm right and you're wrong. That's just where I think we're going to have to leave it. (shrug)

 

Lori--

Would you do me a favor then, and attempt to encapsulate the essence of God telling the people to destroy the Amelekites, according to your personal interpretation?

And yes, I might well be calling you on the clarity of the handbook, here.

thanx,
Tiassa

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We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

 

Lori,

Okay, so you're basically admitting that you accept only the "pretty part" of the Bible and reject the rest, is that correct?

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An ye harm none, do what ye will.

 

Lori,

What excatly were we being saved from, gods childish fits of rage? There are more merciful and loving (traits gods is supposed to have) ways to correct the bad behavior of his children. When one of our children gets out of line we do not kill them. Well most people who have their heads screwed on in roughly the right direction. Not that I am saying anything about you, but suggesting that god should take some anger managment courses.

 

MC,

Ok, I'm wrong about that? You said you dance with your goddess, and I just thought from your question that you thought God was going to, you know, appear with some outright order. I'm just saying...that doesn't happen to me...and I don't know that it will...but if it ever did...I would sure as hell put the "spirit" to the test.

And as to your question, and Tiassa's too, about explaining the OT scripture about the command. First I must say that I am not an expert on Biblical history at all, or ancient Jewish history of any kind. My brother, the atheist, actually knows more about that than I do ironically. He's a big lit and history buff like you Tiassa. But anyway, from a historical perspective, when I read the OT, I keep in mind that atonement had to be very different back then. Jesus Christ changed everything when he died for us. He was the ultimate sacrifice. Now what is sacrifice? Killing, unfortunately. He died for us right? I can't claim to be an authority on how it was back then, because it's so different for me now. I know a God, Jesus, who is merciful and loving and full of grace and forgiving. All I can say is that I don't know a God who is hateful or vengeful. But I look around in the world, and I see death and destruction and suffering everywhere. I see suffering in projects, in famine and war stricken places, and in the wealthiest suburbs, and on the TV everywhere, and in every face I meet. It's real. It comes from somewhere. Where does it come from? It comes from sin, that's where...sinful intent...a denial of the presence of God in your life...and I mean His presence, not just His name or His word...but true faith is living every day really believing that God is who He says He is, and therefore you can trust Him with everything. From what I know about God and about science, I understand the concept of spiritual law from an almost mathematical point of view. Just like gravity. If you jump off a building trying to defy it, you're dead buddy...tough luck. Just like the environment...we use it up with intentions of greed and laziness and gluttony, and we don't care, and the planet's dying. It's the exact same thing in my mind regarding spiritual law. When I read the OT, it just explains to me what I see happening around me. If you sin, which we all will, yes, I'm sorry, but there are destructive and deadly consequences. I don't know how "things" were back in the OT, but when I think of the word "command", I think of God's law...spiritual law...which yes, if it is perverted and circumvented and broken, leads to deadly consequence. You know Tiassa, I don't believe in your scapegoat theory at all. I don't buy that. I know that God created things to be just as lousy as they seem sometimes...and guess what? He does that for a reason. Because things suck when people sin, and He wants us to know the difference, and He wants us to know Him. There is a choice...there is always a choice...never forget that. Good things happen too you know? There's a difference. And when I read the OT, gee, I get the distinct impression that everything's not so relevent. I bet that's what bugs you guys the most about it huh? That's why I say...THANK GOD FOR JESUS!!!!

666,

Hi buuuuuuuuddy. We are being saved from our own sin...we don't not sin, and we can't escape the effects of it, but if you believe in Him, you can have eternal life. And one of these days, life will be much different...without temptation...without sin. Then we get to see what we're missing out on now. Eternal life, unconditional love, and no sin. Imagine how different that would be.

Searcher,

I'm not only paying attention to the pretty part. I'm the one who's saying take a look at the death and atonement practices in the OT and be thankful. I look around and see plenty of suffering, and disease, and death, do you? God doesn't want that. Don't you get it? WE do that, not Him. Yes, there are extremely negative consequences to sin, WHICH ARE REAL, and yes, God created the universe and spiritual law to reflect that. That's what the whole Bible is about! That's why we shouldn't sin see? And you know, if you take an honest look at your evening news sometime, I don't see any worse "atrocities" in the OT than I do all over the place every single day. You don't understand what you read, because you don't know God. And you want to believe He's a big meanie for creating a universe in which we can't have malicious and selfish intentions in without suffering the consequences of such. Well, tough noogies.

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You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited August 24, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited August 24, 2000).]

 

Lori,

"I know a God, Jesus, who is merciful and loving and full of grace and forgiving. All I can say is that I don't know a God who is hateful or vengeful. "

But hasn't God himself has specifically stated that he is an angry, jealous God? And don't his actions speak much louder than words?

So what's the deal, is God schizophrenic? Getting mellow in his old age? You arent' a bible historian, so I guess you don't know the answers, but don't these questions bother you a bit? I mean, if I knew some guy that had masaccred an entire town but was now telling me - oh, you have nothing to fear from me so long as you follow my dictates...I wouln't trust that guy any further than I could throw him, no matter who he was or claimed to be. How do you know when the rules are going to change next? He's changed his mind before, what makes you so sure he'll keep his promises now? Where is the consistency? Did God not have a plan when he started all this?

See, it just doesn't hold water for me. It's like any other myth - symbolic in nature, certainally not to be taken literally. In that light, the bible makes sense. But trying to take it literal...nope, sorry. It can't be an apple and an orange at the same time - it's one or the other, or something else entirely, but it can't be both.

Add on top of that that the story of Jesus's birth and early life matches almost precisely an older pagan myth... There's a book about that that's recently come out. I'll find the title and post it - Searcher I think it's right up your alley from what I've heard.

 

MoonCat,

You must be referring to the Isis-Horus(Egyptian)/Semiramis-Tammuz (Babylonian) myth? This is mentioned in a number of books (one that comes to mind is "The Biggest Secret" by David Icke), but I'm unaware of a new one. Please pass that info along, as it truly is right up my alley!

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An ye harm none, do what ye will.

 

Lori,

Yeah, but I don't believe that God is telling anyone to commit these atrocities, even though some of the perpetrators may claim that. Don't you see what truth I'm leading you to here? YOU don't believe it either, do you? As well you shouldn't. But the OT makes such claims about God ordering these horrendous atrocities, and many people DO believe it, because "after all, it's in the Bible". Well, either the Bible is not the infallible word of God, or God IS a big meanie. Take your pick, but you can't have it both ways, Lori.

Actually, you've been missing my point all along. The God I believe in doesn't order or condone any killings, mutilations, rapes, or any other such atrocities. But it's YOUR Holy Book that makes these claims about YOUR God, so it's YOUR Holy Book I'm calling into question here. If the standard handbook of Christianity and Judaism is wrong about God ordering the killings, etc., then what else is it wrong about? And if it's 100% true, then what kind of God are you worshipping, and why?

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An ye harm none, do what ye will.

 

MC,

It's like you're not hearing what I'm saying. God created a universe in which ther are extremely negative consequences for sin. Sin is a perversion of spiritual law. This is His "anger". God wants more than anything for you to live with Him in eternal bliss and perfection, just the way He created the universe to be...forever...there now, there's His jealousy. He loves you more than anything...get it?!?! And He is jealous enough, yea, to show you that you will die if you choose to. He doesn't want you to make the wrong choice. Well now, isn't He just awful? He's not jealous enough though to interfere with your free will now is He? No, all He can do, and all He does, is try His best to show you that everything's not relative. God doesn't really feel anger, or jealousy, He's just putting it in terms we can all understand, see? His anger is the negative consequence of sin, which is like science and math, I'm sorry, but it doesn't have anything to do with God's "emotions". And His jealousy is His love for you, His creation, and His longing for a relationship with you forever. Now is that really so bad?

Did God have a plan when He started? Yea, a perfect universe and free will. In the end, as far as I can figure, He will have a perfect universe again, and filled with beings like us, and angels, who have made a voluntary, conscious decision, of their own free will, to exist in this universe with Him, and by His law, because they choose to. Sounds smart to me?

Searcher,

No, God is not telling people to commit atrocities. He's telling us not to. But He's also telling us where these atrocities come from and why. And they come from sin, yours, mine, and everyone else's, compounded since the beginning. And even if you don't look at the whole world, but just your own little corner of it, it is still true. And God made it that way. God made it, or commanded it, through the creation of spiritual law, for sin to have deadly effects. But He doesn't want you to sin...He doesn't want you to die...there's a choice...come on...tell me you get what I'm saying...

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You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited August 25, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited August 25, 2000).]

 

Lori,

I get what you're saying, but you refuse to address the issue that I am bringing to the table. It's pretty simple, really. Either the Bible is 100% true, as written, or it is not. If it is not 100% true, as written, then it is not the infallible word of God, but rather the convenient interpretations of man. This makes it somewhat worthless as a guide for living when you have to take everything it says with a grain of salt.

Now, there are plenty of places in the Bible where it outright states that God commanded people to commit these atrocities (such as the ones Someone offered at the beginning of this thread), which opens up a whole new can of worms for the believers. Of course, believers in the patriarchal religions realize this, and want to skirt these issues - I can't say as I blame them. But the issue remains - who is your God? What kind of tyrant would command his people to rape, murder, maim and kill - including even pregnant women and infants? This goes way beyond the "natural" consequences for sin, and you know it.

So Lori, is the Bible the infallible word of God? A simple yes or no answer will do.

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An ye harm none, do what ye will.

 

Searcher,

Yes, it is the infallable Word! Listen, I've tried to explain this to you a few times, and you're just not getting it so, I'll just say that generally, the reason you don't understand is because you are being extremely shallow, and literal in your interpretation of the word. Who are you kidding anyway...you're not trying to understand Christianity are you? If you are, you're not being comprehensive in your learning. Let me ask you this...do you understand what sacrifice was for? Do you understand what atonement is about? Do you understand what it was that Jesus did for humanity when He died? Do you know that it is impossible to "get to heaven" or "be saved" if you don't actually have a personal relationship with Jesus? Do you have one? That would probably help in your whole "tyrant" assessment. Do you understand what faith is? Do you get my point?

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You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

 

Yes, let us thank God for sending an alleged savior to redeem us from the natural result of the Universe that He--that is, God--made.

Dear Lord, save me from yourself.

So, Lori, Dear ... since you say the Bible is infallible, then what the heck is so wrong with wondering why God, who was very interactive among the Jews at the time, told them to destroy everything, including babies?

I mean, is that it, that a Jewish raiding party is exacting God's vengeance for sins? I mean, we're all born into sin, right, so that makes it easier to exact vengeance on infants, or even in utero.

That it happened every day, and that it happens today, is relevant in general, but not to this thread. Why? Because we're talking about an allegedly infallible book which documents God's "orders" to destroy everything and everyone in this or that place. Were Biblical figures, then, victim to the same paranoid delusions that give rise to Koresh or Jones?

Imagine those atrocities Tab described. Well, imagine them as little as possible. But are these things holy? Are these things right? What, then, of a culture perhaps two millennia from here, that worship such an event among their canon because they believed God ordered it? What will myth speak of Hiroshima when atomic fire is ancient?

thanx,
Tiassa

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We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

[This message has been edited by tiassa (edited August 27, 2000).]

 

Lori,

No, I guess I don't understand Christianity, but you are wrong about me not trying. I know I've explained this to you many, many, many times before, and it's getting terribly old by now:

LORI - I ATTENDED SEMINARY CLASSES FOR ONE YEAR TO STUDY THE NEW TESTAMENT!!! I'VE ATTENDED A NUMBER OF CHRISTIAN CHURCHES IN MY LIFETIME - SEARCHING FOR TRUTH AND BEAUTY AND LIGHT. I DIDN'T FIND IT IN ANY OF THE CHRISTIAN OR QUASI-CHRISTIAN CHURCHES I EVER ATTENDED IN MY 43 YEARS OF LIVING.

Oh yeah, this is because I'm shallow. Thank you for explaining - it's all so clear to me now.

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An ye harm none, do what ye will.

 

http://www.webcom.com/ctt/rbutcher1.html http://www.webcom.com/ctt/qamorite.html

Those links present the "real" answers I alluded to before. They are long reads though. They are from the thinktank.

Theres a lot of innaccurate material in here. For instance, the Ot God of hate versus the NT God of love. This distinction doesn't really exist in the Bible. It comes from Biblical ignorance.

"God kills Annias and Sapphira (Acts 5) for lying to Him AS CHRISTIANS(!), and Paul hands over a Christian involved in incest, to judgement in I Cor 5... Jesus pronounces judgement on Israel (in the Olivet Discourse), which is generally considered to have been fulfilled in the Roman invasion shortly thereafter." [from the thinktank]

Also, the Bible is a recording of God's acts and his relation to humankind. That recording only goes up to the first century. We do not know whether God pours less, more, or the same amount of judgement out today than back then. We just don't know. We have no record. of God's dealings in current event.

Also, God desires mercy and compassion. He does not desire that the wicked perish but that they come to repentance. Those links go over a lot of the questions asked in this thread. If you have some free time I would suggets reading them.

Peace,
Vinnie