Yahweh, the baby killing God.

Testing again, still got problems.

 

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Greenwood,

Right on, I way rereading the thread also and noticed that I had done exactly the same thing.

Big flowery post about who God is but I failed to address the exact specifics of the question.

I offer an apology for this and will review the question to offer a specific answer.

But it may take a little while

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Allcare

Tony H2o

PS Welcome to exo, have you been here before as someone else? Or just a casual passer by?

 

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Well, by way of biography, I found this board from another board, Triplemoon Witchware, following a thread into the Religious Debate section here. Having read some of the posts here, it seems to be a place where soem interesting debates can be had. Since the vast majority of my friends either have ideas similar to mine or are not interested in debating, this seems like a good place to spend some time.

I use the name Greenwood priest because I am an ordained priest in the Ancient Keltic Church. Before any Christians try to convert me, let me say that once upon a time I was Christian, then I started reading the Bible. After enough reading and studying, I became an atheist. A couple of years of atheism brought me to the realization that atheism requires just as much faith as any religion; this brought me to the agnostic period of my life. Once I found Paganism, I knew I had found a truth. From the first time I took part in rituals with the Ancient Keltic Church I knew beyond all doubt that I had found my way home, I was with my family.

Anything else, you'll need to ask questions about.

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Greenwood priest

 

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MM Greenwood Priest!!

I thought your name looked familliar!! Yaay, another pagan is at Exosci!

Great to see you here!

Blessings!
~MoonCat

 

Yes, Greenwood Priest ~ Merry Meet & Welcome!

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I'd love to see more of your input on this board as well. If you enjoy a good debate now and then, you should love this place! (Oh, by the way, I'm Emerald over at Triplemoon.)



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An ye harm none, do what ye will.

 

Hey Tab...
You spoke of atrocities in Indonesia that are happening today that rival what happened in the O.T. What about here (In the Good ole USA)? We, as a nation, don't seem to get bent out of shape sucking the brains out of our almost newborn babies and then crushing their skulls upon delivery(in the name of Womens Rights). We have no serious problem chopping up infants in the womb in the name of Women's Rights. The only difference between then-there and now-here is that we are a little more sanitized. It's OK here as long as we don't hear them scream or don't see their hands and legs shudder and their eyes get bug eyed big at the shock of what is happening to their bodies before they die. Maybe God is wiping out our nation and we haven't figured it out yet...

 

Man kills man for his own selfish reasons and there are as many reasons, as there are men. Religious and political beliefs are just two of the most potent excuses for killing and ultimately, that's all people require; an excuse!
The reason? Well, I believe it's all part of our fundamental instinct to survive - I kill you, I take your property, I take your food, I survive longer - very basic!
All it needs to be activated, is for a third party to nudge our psyche towards that fundamental idea.

 

Very rushed and full of holes but please read between the lines to get the gist of what I'm try to say.

Thanks

Tony

I Samuel 15:
2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek<06002> did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
3 Now go and smite Amalek<06002>, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
4 And Saul gathered the people together, and numbered them in Telaim, two hundred thousand footmen, and ten thousand men of Judah.
5 And Saul came to a city of Amalek<06002>, and laid wait in the valley. {laid...: or, fought}
6 And Saul said unto the Kenites, Go, depart, get you down from among the Amalekites<06002>, lest I destroy you with them: for ye shewed kindness to all the children of Israel, when they came up out of Egypt. So the Kenites departed from among the Amalekites.
7 And Saul smote the Amalekites<06002> from Havilah until thou comest to Shur, that is over against Egypt.
8 And he took Agag the king of the Amalekites alive, and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword.


06002 qlme ` Amaleq am-aw-lake'
probably of foreign origin; ; n pr m
AV-Amalek 24, Amalekites 15; 39
Amalek =" dweller in a valley"
1) son of Eliphaz by his concubine Timnah, grandson of Esau, and progenitor of a tribe of people in southern Canaan
2) descendants of Amalek


Historically:

Amalekites
A tribe that dwelt in Arabia Petraea, between the Dead Sea and the Red Sea. They were not the descendants of Amalek, the son of Eliphaz, for they existed in the days of Abraham as refered to in Ge 14:7 They were probably a tribe that migrated from the shores of the Persian Gulf and settled in Arabia who took their name from another Amalek. "They dwelt in the land of the south from Havilah until thou comest to Shur" Nu 13:29 1Sa 15:7 They were a pastoral and nomadic race. Their kings bore the hereditary name of Agag Nu 24:7 1Sa 15:8 They attempted to stop the Israelites when they marched through their territory De 25:18 attacking them at Rephidim Ex 17:8-13 comp. #De 25:17 1Sa 15:2 They afterwards attacked the Israelites at Hormah #Nu 14:45 We read of them subsequently as in league with the Moabites #Jud 3:13 and the Midianites #Jud 6:3 Saul finally desolated their territory and destroyed their power #1Sa 14:48 15:3 and David recovered booty from them #1Sa 30:18-20 In the Babylonian inscriptions they are called Sute, in those of Egypt Sittiu, and the Amarna tablets include them under the general name of Khabbati, or "plunderers."

Agag
Flame, the usual title of the Amalekite kings, as "Pharaoh" was of the Egyptian.
1. A king of the Amalekites referred to by Balaam #Nu 24:7 He lived at the time of the Exodus.
2. Another king of the Amalekites whom Saul spared unlawfully, but whom Samuel on his arrival in the camp of Saul ordered, in retributive justice #Jud 1:1ff. to be brought out and cut in pieces #1Sa 15:8-33 Comp. #Ex 17:11, Nu 14:45

Kenites
Smiths, the name of a tribe inhabiting the desert lying between southern Palestine and the mountains of Sinai. Jethro was of this tribe #Jud 1:16 He is called a "Midianite" #Nu 10:29 and hence it is concluded that the Midianites and the Kenites were the same tribe. They were wandering smiths, "the gipsies and travelling tinkers of the old Oriental world. They formed an important guild in an age when the art of metallurgy was confined to a few" (Sayce's Races, etc.). They showed kindness to Israel in their journey through the wilderness. They accompanied them in their march as far as Jericho #Jud 1:16 and then returned to their old haunts among the Amalekites, in the desert to the south of Judah. They sustained afterwards friendly relations with the Israelites when settled in Canaan #Jud 4:11,17-21 1Sa 27:10 30:29 The Rechabites belonged to this tribe #1Ch 2:55 and in the days of Jeremiah #Jer 35:7-10 are referred to as following their nomad habits. Saul bade them depart from the Amalekites #1Sa 15:6 when, in obedience to the divine commission, he was about to "smite Amalek." And his reason is, "for ye showed kindness to all the children of Israel when they came up out of Egypt." Thus "God is not unrighteous to forget the kindnesses shown to his people; but they shall be remembered another day, at the farthest in the great day, and recompensed in the resurrection of the just" (M. Henry's Commentary). They are mentioned for the last time in Scripture in #1Sa 27:10 comp. #1Sa 30:20

Exodus 17:
8 Then came Amalek, and fought with Israel in Rephidim.
9 And Moses said unto Joshua, Choose us out men, and go out, fight with Amalek: to morrow I will stand on the top of the hill with the rod of God in mine hand. {Joshua: called Jesus}
10 So Joshua did as Moses had said to him, and fought with Amalek: and Moses, Aaron, and Hur went up to the top of the hill.
11 And it came to pass, when Moses held up his hand, that Israel prevailed: and when he let down his hand, Amalek prevailed.
12 But Moses' hands were heavy; and they took a stone, and put it under him, and he sat thereon; and Aaron and Hur stayed up his hands, the one on the one side, and the other on the other side; and his hands were steady until the going down of the sun.
13 And Joshua discomfited Amalek and his people with the edge of the sword.

Deuteronomy 25:
17 Remember what Amalek did unto thee by the way, when ye were come forth out of Egypt;
18 How he met thee by the way, and smote the hindmost of thee, even all that were feeble behind thee, when thou wast faint and weary; and he feared not God.
19 Therefore it shall be, when the LORD thy God hath given thee rest from all thine enemies round about, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance to possess it, that thou shalt blot out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven; thou shalt not forget it.

So in summary the historical context was that the Amalekites attacked Israel as they journeyed from Egypt towards their promised destination of a land flowing with milk and honey. The Amalekites showed that they were cowardly and cruel in attacking the weakest and slowest of the Israelites that trailed behind the main body of people. This group normally consisted of the young (including women with child), the old and the sick. The Amalikites attacked those that could not defend themselves in an act of cruelty that God promised to call them into account for.

What we see here is the law of the harvest, they, the Amalakites reaped what they sowed, destruction. Israel was passing through without provocation and was continually attacked by these people, attacks that God would remember and judge.


Socially and Politically:

Kings were the social, political and at times spiritual leaders of people groups throughout history. Unlike today’s democratic systems of appointment kingship and a kingdom was either passed from generation to generation or taken by force. Subjects of the kingdom had little say in the functioning of the kingdom and were at the mercy of the ruler of the kingdom. Should a subject choose to disobey the orders of the king that ruled over him he would be killed, he and his household would be destroyed and wiped from the face of the nation. Such was the kings power that it demanded total obedience, the people of the time understood the penalty for non compliance with the kings demands.

The judgement that God metered out was in accordance with their understanding of disobedience and in accordance with the atrocities that they had committed against others.

So socially speaking the judgement metered out was within the context of the judgements that people expected and metered out for disobedience and rebellion against authority, let alone an outright attack on it or on the people group that were covered by the authority.

The Lord acted out this judgement in a way that the social and political climate of that era dictated as necessary. This judgement befell the Amalakites after the Lord had compelled and warned them on numerous occasions to repent from their actions of continued violence against His chosen people. His judgement fell some 400 years after the first strike made by the Amalakites against His chosen people.


Religious:

From a religious stance the Amalakites were a nation that worshiped god’s of their own devising. God’s that did not confront their actions or call them into account as did the God of Israel. Theirs was a religion based on self gratification, they worshiped whatever god it was that they considered would meet their immediate needs and desires. In doing so they adopted whatever practices and rituals required to gain the blessing of said god’s. Some of the acts performed were nothing short of barbaric in there cruelty towards, men, women, animals and sadly children. Practices that involved inflicting acts of gross immorality, practices that involve brutal treatment and sacrifices, practices that involve self mutilation and the agonising mutilation of others. So advanced were some races in the performing of these hostilities that they could skin a person alive to inflict the most agonising death possible. The Amalakites had a well established reputation for being a brutal people.

For this reason God continuously instructed Israel to not fall into the practices of the nations that surrounded her. For if Israel did then their judgement would be worse than that placed on the nations as Israel had the very law of God and were called to be a witness to who their God was and the blessing that He desired to bestow on those who served Him in obedience.

This is what made Israel stand out amongst the nations, this is what caused the nations to rally against her and form alliances throughout history to destroy her. Because this nation, Israel, in a covenant agreement with the Lord Most High stood as an example against every foul practice, every diabolical act, every injustice and every breach that mankind committed against God and against the very law of God. This nation had an established moral order and just treatment of the poor and weak formed part of that moral order handed down to them by God through Moses.

Let me repeat what I said before: The Lord acted out this judgement in a way that the social and political climate of that era dictated as necessary. This judgement befell the Amalakites after the Lord has compelled and warned them on numerous occasions to repent from their actions of continued violence against His chosen people. His judgement fell some 400 years after the first strike made by the Amalakites against His people.

So should God have done something different?

Even after 400 years of patience with the Amalakites, of waiting for them to repent?

Should He have stood by and watched? Should He have allowed these people to sort out their differences on their own?

No, because He could not.

In my last post I tried to show how God has a Holy face that demands justice, it demands justice for the unjust actions of men. It demands justice for sin, it demands justice for the acts committed against all that that holiness stands for. It sets a standard that must be met and failure to do so results in judgement. Judgement that can be covered with sin offerings, the shedding of an innocent beasts blood for the life is in the blood. An act itself that was to portray the serious price required for transgression against the holiness of God. An act that was an indicator of the final and greatest sacrifice that would be given for the forgiveness of sin. Without that covering, without that sacrifice sin was not accounted for and without being accounted for judgement is entered into. Such is the Holiness of God, it is a very real and very powerful force that is not to be treated lightly or mocked.

But do you remember what else I attempted to show? The human face of God, the one who knows that His holiness demands a higher toll than mere mortal can pay because of the very thing it calls into judgement, sin itself. God knew that we would stuff up and He placed into motion through His interaction with mankind a means and a method of dealing with that sin, Jesus entered the stage of human existence and as a final innocent sacrifice, a man who’s blood was shed in innocence, as that final offering He took the toll that we deserve on Himself.


He, God was forced to act in accordance with the covenant He made with the forefathers and the people of the nation of Israel in accordance with the law and His holiness. He had to allow events to transpire throughout biblical history so as to show the wages of disobedience and sin. Wages that even affected those that seemed innocent. He was compelled to judge as the people before Him would not heed His warnings. He was according to His very character and nature brought to a point of so much and no more.

Does this then mean that God is not in control? Absolutely not, it’s a difficult thing to try to convey to people just what was happening in a way that they will understand. I don’t want to use cheap metaphors or analogies. I want to try to show you all who God truly is, yes He is a God of great wrath and judgement, yes sometimes His actions are difficult to understand and comprehend, yes He had to portray and show this part of His character to give people throughout the course of history an appreciation of just what it is to be holy. An appreciation of the demands that being Holy places on Him as God and the judgement that His holiness will bring sinful man into if they do not turn from their ways and return to their maker.

God’s interaction with freewilled man was a work of unparallel genius, can we even begin to imagine the difficulties involved in bringing about a final resolution to an eternal disease with a free willed being? Man alive we can’t even live peacefully with the neighbour half the time let alone orchestrate such a thing for their benefit.

God’s control was absolute in that His eternal plan was completed and successful. The casualties that occurred along the way both innocent and guilty are not eternal casualties. This now becomes another point of consideration, that of the fact that we are eternal beings. Prior to Christ all died in their sin, when Jesus died he descended and took charge of sin and death, He set the captives free from the hold of sin and death and He arose victorious.

He can do the same for us.


People there is so much more to the stories you see and read than just the text that meets the eye. Dig, dig, dig, seek and you will find that there are answers to the why.

I can’t do it for you, all I want to do is let others know about the amazing grace that I live in, about the wonders of God. I just want people to be inspired to know that God does have a human face of compassion and grace, a human face with an eternal perspective.

Go ahead do some searches, type in Amalakites. You’ll come across more info than you’ll have time to read, info for and against, read it, read it all and then sit and think, And I mean think.

Allcare
Tony

 

An excellent rebuttal Tony, but it still doesn’t make Yahweh’s actions hold water. His answer to the problem of the Amalakites; kill them all, including the infants. What more can be said? Maybe you believe Yahweh’s orders to be justified, but it is still barbaric in the extreme to me, and any other person who thinks critically about the situation. Do you kill your children for being bad? Of course not, anyone who did would be seen as a psychopathic killer. Surely Yahweh, with his infinite wisdom, could have thought of another way besides just killing them all, but he didn’t did he? Couldn’t he at least have spared the infants and children? Not only is Yahweh barbaric, but he is merciless to the innocent. That’s not a god I would ever worship, even if he did exist.

 

Tony,

You pose a good argument, but I still can't see genocide as an answer. It sounds a lot like the white man's justification for slaughtering the native peoples here in the Americas, and it goes way beyond the "eye for an eye" rule that people lived by in those times. And why wait 400 years to punish the Amalekites for their treatment of the Israelites when they were passing through their territory? That's kind of like waiting until next year to punish a child for what he did wrong today, but instead of punishing him - you kill him. How is that "teaching" the child anything? I guess one thing's for sure - he won't ever do that again.

To take this analogy a bit further, let's say that the child in this case had killed his brother's pet hamster because he found the hamster had wandered into his bedroom. Instead of punishing the errant child immediately, the father waits a year, allowing the child to continue torturing and killing small animals at will and get away with it. Then, when the father finally get off his duff and decides to do something about it, instead of inflicting the punishment himself, he instructs the other child to kill the child who destroyed his pets, along with all of that child's pets. Is there any rational person who could condone the actions of the parent in this example? What if it just so happened that the parent in this example also happened to be a very powerful ruler, one who had power over your life? Would you look the other way rather than risk the wrath of this being by publically criticizing or questioning his actions?

The way I see it, we are moving out of the age of blind obedience to a harsh and irrational task master, and into an age where we are more discerning regarding the god(s)/goddess(es) we choose to worship. Humanity is finally coming of age.

Blessings,

Emerald

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An ye harm none, do what ye will.

 

Surely Yahweh, with his infinite wisdom, could have thought of another way besides just killing them all, but he didn't did he?

but he is merciless to the innocent.

Ahhh, but He did! S7 He did think of another way to deal with humankind, He thought of this way prior to the creation of humankind.

I don't usually do this, that is I don't like to have bits and pieces of what I say quoted back at me and I would suspect that others don't either. But I do sometimes make exceptions

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especially when the points raised are excellent ones and show me what it is exactly that the person is struggling with, or trying to come to terms with.

Lets get right back to the biblical statement, I can fully understand the reason why you think what you think and ask what you ask. Yes it does look barbaric, yes it may even be severe and almost incomprehensible to us in the social and political environment of today's world. One thing can be said for the human race, we have learnt and are learning the value of a human life. It is precious, it is a wonderful gift given by God, so why then would this same said God choose to wipe it out, destroy it throughout biblical history? I do understand what you, Mooncat, Emerald Searcher

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and other ask. Darn it dude its the same things I ask every night I go to sleep, its the same thoughts that race through my mind as I pray for the loss of innocent lives, its the same thing that makes me wonder where the justice is in a family losing a child to disease, hunger, predatory human behaviour, car accidents, cancer and the list goes on. It's not easy is it? The whole faith thing is a huge struggle a fight and a battle and anyone that would tell you otherwise is a liar.

Well is it any wonder that people question? Why people don't just blindly believe in a God of mercy and love when all around them is a world of pain, yet also beauty. What a predicament hey?

So how do I a person who chooses to be inspired by the relationship I have with God bring some sense and reason to the soup of chaos? How does a biblical statement that shows the anger and judgement of God help us to understand His love? How the heck do we make any sense out of all this?????

Strangely or ironically I think we ask the same questions, hey I wish I had all the answers for everyone but I don't. I struggle in my own ways to contemplate these things and even if I had the answers how would that help you? You need to discover your own answers to these questions, all I want to do is try to help from what I understand, from how I am learning to look past the superficial and take into account the complete, to look past the one liners and attempt to grasp with my feeble understanding the whole.

Personally I have a response that helps me to understand my God, the God I love and have come to know as a God who loves me. The only way I can understand these things is to look at the big picture, to try and grasp what it is that God way saying and showing at the time. Try to comprehend how it all fits into the glorious plan of His salvation for mankind and at the same time maintains the integrity of His very character and nature.

So how does the judgement of God show His mercy, kindness and love?

Being straight up with all of you I think it actually helps to show it, there's a number of things that I want to touch on here and I'm having trouble knowing where to start so please bear with me on my convoluted rambling tour.

God's judgement, that's essentially what we are discussing here isn't it? Lots of differing examples used by Emerald, Mooncat, S7, Infinity and once upon a time Flash. Lot's of atrocities quoted, lots of emotion and lots of demands for reasons and explanations. Wow what a hornets nest this is

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God's judgement and why He exercises it? God's judgement and when He exercises it? God's judgement and how He exercises it? God's judgement and whom He exercises it upon?

And all the while the cry of innocent lives goes up and up, it rises against any supposed logic and reason as to why?

What does this judgement speak to me? It speaks of His Holiness, a trait, a characteristic, an attribute of God's person that demands perfection, yes it demands perfection not only from others but from God Himself. Anything short of that perfection will fall under God's judgement save for His mercy and patience. Its a Holiness that operates in love, it is slow to anger and allows for flaws and faults that transpire in ignorance. However when acts of brutality are committed outside of that innocence, when they are committed in plain and out rightly open defiance then He must judge, yet even in this He allowed a period of 400 years for a nation to turn from their ways before that judgement was exercised. Does this mean that the judgement was passed on innocent descendants Emerald Searcher? By no means, the Lord hoped that a generation would rise up that would break away from the traditions and ways of their forefathers, yet for 400 years and regardless of warnings they did not. And so God judged the nation of the Amalakites, I as a man with compassion, as a man with emotions would cringe at the thought of the destruction of any life. Yet at the same time I can see why this happened and understand the reasons for it, but I want to bring in a point now that I touched on earlier........................ We are eternal beings, and as such the story does not end with the deaths of these people. God's plan for them extended beyond the grave!

Sin is a virus that has infected mankind and separated us from the original cure for it, intimate communion with God. So as an interim cure to the problem God created a series of procedures to cover the disease while He allowed time to pass and the plan to put into effect the final cure to come about. During the course of this time He still wanted to ensure that a standard was in place to keep the virus in check, that standard being the measure of His Holiness and Righteousness. A standard that was to be enforced by and through His covenant agreement with the race that descended from Abraham. They would through their dedication and devotion be an example to others who suffered from the disease what the standard stood for and what the standard demanded. It demanded a life in accordance with the requirements of it and it offered an interim solution to the transgressions committed against it through the spilling of blood to show the seriousness of the effects of the transgressions.

So over time we saw see the measure applied to mankind, we see a point where the seriousness of the transgressions could no longer be covered by hope of change. We see many examples of where God called a nation into judgement and had to according to the law of the harvest revisit on them the very things that He was warning them against. They reaped what they sowed. And all throughout we see a standard that seems impossible for man to meet, we even see the chosen people, the ones who are divinely appointed to be the ambassadors of this standard not being able to meet the requirements of it. We see the cost involved in their transgression flowing as a river of blood, the life source of the creatures that were destroyed to cover the transgressions. The standard was perfection and the God of that standard demanded perfection. The creatures that the standard was created for however were far from perfect and far from having the ability to be perfect, they were by way of the line of decent born with this virus. A virus and disease that affects the most innocent of us even to the young. Who teaches a child to lie? Its a fairly (un)natural ability is it not?

And then the final master stroke is applied to the picture, a complete and total cure is put into effect to restore the human race to a place of communion and holiness that they within them selves could in no manner achieve. The standard was set to show the human race that they in their own ability, and even with an interim covering could not meet the standards set by the Holiness of the Master. The law and all the it required, the accounts of all the tragedy, the examples of lost lives and the destruction's the occurred bear testimony to the fact that God is a Holy and righteous God who will exact His judgement and wrath in accordance with His very character, nature and attributes to make a rebellious nation, tribe and peoples come to the knowledge of this very fact. The fact that they are fallen and that they need restoration, that fact that transgression is transgression, sin is sin, wrong is wrong and that they have failed in any human attempt to rectify the situation. The very law showed this and explained this, the very thing that was given them was the very thing that convicted them of their guilt.

God worked with the free will of His creation to bring this very thing to pass, humankind's failure to meet His standards. And this brings us right back to the beginning:

Surely Yahweh, with his infinite wisdom, could have thought of another way besides just killing them all, but he didn’t did he?

but he is merciless to the innocent.

Ahhh, but He did!

I said I was going to discuss about us being eternal didn't I? I never did quite get to that yet.

See we loose sight of this very fact, the fact that we are eternal beings. The fact that we were created to be eternal and to have eternal fellowship with God.

Do you think that when God judged the Amalakites for their sin and rebellion that He lost sight of this? Do you think that He mearly said:

OH SOD IT! I'VE HAD ABOUT ALL I'M GONNA TAKE FROM THIS LOT. JUST GO AND KILL THE LOT OF THEM SO THAT I CAN FORGET ABOUT EM. WOMEN, CHILDREN, OXEN AND SHEEP, THE WHOLE LOT OF THEM SO THAT I WON'T HAVE THEM ANNOYING ME OR MY CHOSEN PEOPLE ANYMORE.

No He didn't, He never lost sight of them or any others that fell according to His judgement. In fact He actually showed them His mercy in a greater way than we can see with human eyes, He was using them even in freewilled their rebellion to show a standard and to bring about events that would lead to the final cure for the virus to be implemented.

So what happened to them? What did God allow to happen to these existing eternal souls? Has He abandoned them to eternal separation and punishment? Has He turned His back on His creation? A creation that from its first moment of conception in the mothers womb was tainted by the disease of humankind?

No God did not forget them, as much as they deserve the rewards that the grave can offer, as much as they are guilty of falling short, as much as they are guilty of their actions and deserving of their rewards God did not loose sight of one eternal soul. As much as we may think that little lives were cut short because of association and ancestory they were not. We just don't see ourselves as eternal anymore, and as such we consider that everything that is, everything that exists around us is all that there is. We think that our span is 70 years and more if we are lucky. What happened to them was not the end of them but the moving into of their eternal lives. Eternal lives based on decisions and choices made in the here and now, not the there and then.

God did not abandon them to the grave which we all deserve for our transgressions, instead He consummated the eternal plan that would bring them escape from the grip of death.

When mankind fell the virus and disease of sin was not the only effect, death became our bedfellow. The deceiver who beguiled the woman and then the man was given the authority over them in death. Satan held the keys of death and he used them to malign and contort the picture we have of God. And in death Satan held authority over the eternal souls of all.

But God never lost sight of one, even the smallest, and even in the holiness that He demanded His mercy was at work in His son, Jesus Christ. This was God's plan, this was the solution to the disease that plagues us, Jesus is the only human who has ever meet the standards set by God, Jesus is the only on to have been completely innocent in the eye's of God, the innocent and pure Lamb of God. And as such He was the only one that could lay down His life as an eternal sacrifice, as the eternal innocent and pure blood that was shed for the cleansing of sins. When Satan through his human servants nailed Jesus to the cross he had no idea of what God had accomplished. Has Satan known that God was using him to exact the eternal plan of salvation he would never have nailed Jesus to the cross. But by the work of his own hands he was undone, for he nailed an innocent man to the wood. And as an innocent man Jesus was flawless, as an innocent man Jesus was untouchable by death save that He, Jesus gave Himself in to it in our place. IT IS FINISHED. God's plan was completed in the final breath, God's plan that required mankind to see Him as a Holy judge and ruler of the human race was now completed and a new way was made for man to be restored to Him. A way of love, God had given of His very self to bring about a cure to the disease that forced humankind to see Him as a judge and judge alone. Now they could see Him through the one that died in their place and for their transgressions as a God who so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, so that all who believe on Him shall not perish but shall have everlasting life. God did not abandon the dead to hades, God did not forget them, He brought about a way out for them. For when Jesus died innocent death could not hold Him down and He arose. And before He arose He descended into the bowels of hell itself, He broke down its gates and He took back the keys of life and death that the devil had stolen, He did so because He has authority to do so as an innocent man undeserving of death. And when Jesus arose He set the captives free, all the eternal souls that had be deceived into a place of opposition to their creator were loosed and the glorious plan of Gods mercy to them was shown them so that they could choose, as free willed beings whom they would serve.

So you see God did think of another way, a way that we reject without due consideration. A way that was mapped out before the creation of humankind, a way that was played out throughout the history of mankind. It may not be the way however that we expected God to do it, it may not be a way that we completely comprehend but it was His way, and knowing Him, know who He is and what He does, knowing that His wisdom exceeds my wisdom and that even to compare the two I am but a grain of sand in the presence of His Son, knowing this I know that His ways are perfect and all His ways are just. I don't always understand them, I question them and He graciously answers me, but I am an eternal being with a limited understanding in comparison to the eternal one with infinite understanding. So I know His way was better.

Yes those people died, yes it appears terrible when we look at it as an extracted statement. But NO! God did not abandon them, even in their sin, even deserving of the judgement that befell them and will befall us all God provided a way out, a means of restoration to deal with the disease of sin.

This is what I try and try and try to show others, not just in words but in my life. By the very love He bestows on me, a love that brings tears to my eyes and causes my heart to ache for those who do not understand. Hey I know its not their fault altogether, and so does God. The examples we so often set for them of what it means to be a Christian are nothing short of horrendous, and then we have the gall to play the holier than thou record and feel good about ourselves and the artificial candy coated lives we lead. Blow it all away Lord, just blow it all away, all the dross and muck that clings to us, I am as guilty as many of these very things just blow it all away.

All who read anything I send in will know that I take what I believe very seriously, that I don't try to pin a guilt trip on people to turn or burn or blah, blah, blah them to tears. All I want is for each and every one to be able to make an informed decision about God. There is so much out in this great big rock we live on that gives us a bent view of Him that it hurts my head, not to mention my heart. The only way you will ever begin to understand the dumb way I explain stuff is to ask God for it. I don't think I can do any more here, I don't know what else to offer up, I'm spent at this time and need to go back into Him arms of love for refreshing. Please, and if it sounds like I'm begging I am. Please give Him, the God of all Glory an opportunity to speak to your heart, I'm not talking about a repeat after me prayer or anything, I'm saying be who you are and just find a quiet spot to sit with no distractions, open the heart gate and ask the King of all Glory to come in, please explain God because I just don't get it? But be specific OK, make sure He knows your talking to Him and not just giving an open invitation like is there anyone out there?????

Thanks for the response old friend, may I?

Thanks

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.

Blind obedience is what the law demanded, loving obedience is what a life free from the weight of sin allows in the presence of God. This life comes from but one source:

I am the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father but by me. - Jesus Christ.

I was hoping that by now this irrational task master was starting to make sense in the full context of what was being achieved. I can understand the prob's that people like Stretch have when trying to come to terms with the view of God given in the Old Testament. I have tried to give an explanation of how this is so and why and what for, please my friend if I have failed or if I have confused you then tell me. I don't want people to not understand but I'm not the best at explaining things in a way that people can grasp, heck I don't even understand sometimes

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Its a shame that people only see God this way still, I guess looking at it very simplistically I could reason that if a person has never know His Forgiveness and Love in a tangible and real way then they find themselves trying to relate to Him in His judgement. Heck, did that make sense? I think you'll understand what I'm getting at? Essentially if we are without the Love of God we don't see Him as a God of Love, but we see Him as a God who judges because that's our expectation from Him, that He will judge us. Hey I know this first hand, for years I did exactly this, I'd stuff up and cry for forgiveness, and then I'd go right back to the same thing again and cry out again feeling guilty, unworthy and that I was going to be judged. Guess what I was right, I had taken myself out of His love through a wilful act of disobedience and expected that a simple guilt trip, a few tears and a quick prayer would fix it, way wrong. I make the mess, I clean it up. You see what I'm trying to say? God prefers obedience to sacrifice, obedience motivated by love, not fear of judgement or retribution as was the standard in the OT. Jesus was the only one who could achieve this, only He can give us the correct view of the Father and not one that is filtered through the glasses of sin.

Without the sin being removed we will never be able to see the Father as He truly is and for what He has actually done. Our discernment regarding who HE is will always be flawed, it will always be conformed to the stereotypical image of a brutal or harsh Father we may have experienced as we grew up, or the absent father that never came home, or the drunkard that we despised, or the wife basher that we hated. With so many bent views our experiences will always speak loudest to us about who the Father in heaven is. For me it has been a struggle as I know it will be for you to see God and His attributes as anything but the natural father we grew up with. God understands this my friend, but He also shows us if we truly and honestly seek to find His true face. I guess you and others have heard me speak a number of time about my family, my 8yo boy and 5 yo girl, my wife who I adore 14 years on, I want to give them the best possible example I can of who God is by the example of my life towards them. I want to in my loving obedience to God my Father let them see in me who He is. Sadly in the world as we know it today the family is the unit that is being attacked from all sides, sometimes in an out right way by all so often in a stealthy and cunning way that we seldom notice. Families are being torn apart by differences, by distractions from being in the roles that make most sense and offer the most structure and support to the family unit. Now your probably thinking I'm a male chauvinist or something

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I'm not, honestly I'm not, but maybe you should check with my wife

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Allcare

Tony

 

All the preaching aside, your explanation seems nearly satisfactory (i.e. I see no gapping holes in your reasoning, though there are holes in it), only took, what, 90 post before some Christian could actually explain it decently? I'll probably review it again, I was skipping parts because the preaching was getting annoying. Basically, Yahweh killed them, knowing the sinners would go to hell (or where ever), and the innocent would go to heaven when Jesus died and went to hell and stole some keys or something from Satan. Maybe I read it wrong, I was skipping around, but wouldn't that mean innocent souls were being tortured in hell for a few thousand years before Jesus showed up? Your explanation should suffice in convincing most Christians of Yahweh's justification for ordering the deaths of innocent babies, but the fact remains innocent people were still killed by the order of your god, just because Yahweh had a plan for them (as you claim, a claim which I might add is unsanctioned since you weren't there and don't know Yahweh's intentions), doesn't excuse the pain they went through, and it still doesn't excuse how brutal the acts of Saul’s army was. Tell me, were the sheep and oxen sinners also? Did the sheep and oxen's ancestors do anything to Israel? Like I said, there aren’t any gapping holes in your explanation, but holes nonetheless.

 

S7,

Please stop trying to narrow the reasons for God's actions down into a simple one off motivation based on emotion X, Y or Z, or for reason A,B or C.

I wish I could summarise for you the step by step of it all but it goes beyond my knowledge and understanding, its like the deeper you dig the more you find, and the more you find the less detail you see because your using all the RAM to try to get a complete overview rather than just a glimpse.

The fact remains that if the innocent were affected by the provocation¡¦s of their fathers and their fathers, fathers then God takes it all into account beyond our comprehension, knowledge and understanding. If the innocent die because of the acts of God's instructions they are not abandoned to the grave, they are eternal and they are innocent, God sorts it out and as a just and right God His very character and nature ensure this. What I was attempting to show also is that even the wicked, yes even the ones who committed the acts against God by their attacks on His people with full knowledge of their actions, even these people are shown the mercy of the cross of Christ. The Gospel of hope that I preach was laid out before them so as to allow them the free willed choice in their fate. If they so choose to reject the message and the gift of salvation offered then they will reap what they have sown and they will reap the consequences of their actions as those consequences ripple down through time as we know it and have various outcomes. Do you hear what I'm saying??

How can I explain what I see?

We and the world / universe that surrounds us are confined to the constraints of time, however you measure it, moving forwards. So to us from our vantage point or from our perspective there is a past as in things that have transpired and of which there is recorded evidence, a present as in what I am currently writing, and a future where in I predict that failing some unforseen calamity you will read the word that I am presently typing

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The key here is that from OUR vantage point this is the progression of our existence. I surmise from my understanding of religious literature both Christian and non that the same said constraints apply to spiritual beings who inhabit our sphere of existence. That they also are constrained by these factors, yet they are capable in some manner of manipulating some physical barriers that inhibit the human frame.

Now to take this to the next step, what lies beyond the realm of our existence? Beyond the range of our greatest instruments but only a heartbeat away?

Eternity of course.

And next, what realm does and omnipotent, omnipresent eternal God inhabit?

Why the eternal one of course.

Is the picture becoming clear? Are you starting to see what I am saying?

We as humans are constrained to live within the confines of time as we know it. God, and when I use that general term to describe Him I mean the spirit of God which is omnipresent within and without the realm of our existence, God himself is not subject to the same constraints that bind us. As such He is within and without of time.

So from God's perspective, from His vantage point He sees all in a macro view in that He sits High and exalted and behold the ways of man, when He views us and when He takes a look at our existence He can do so outside of the constraints that we are limited to. In other words He can do so outside of time.

Also as I said being a Omnipresent God He can behold things from a micro view as well. This is why Jesus could state quite assuredly that He the Father knows every hair on our head, and at the same time knew Him as the God of all creation who was in charge and could quell the greatest storms.

And inbetween the micro and the macro all is laid out before Him like a panoramic view of the history and future of the human race. God sees all and exists beyond our understanding of it.

But what am I getting at?

Well I will try to pull it all together.

God from His vantage point sees every act of every individual in every circumstance and under the conditions that lead to the choices made from a macro and micro vantage point. Don't try to hard to grasp the concept, I tried to think about everything that I had ever experienced and known in a single thought once. Guess what happened? I didn't work. But for God it does. He sees every action and every reaction and every subsequent action and every reaction to that subsequent action all throughout time in one single moment of His presence. Mind blowing hey?

So why am I telling you this? Well I think it may help you in trying to understand that things from God's perspective look a little bit different than things viewed from our perspective.

When a person, or a nation, or a race is placed before His view through the actions that they carry out and how those action transgress His very character and nature to a point beyond repentance, to a point beyond what God can allow as the outcome of those actions could place in danger the entire human race by their effect on the eternal plan of salvation. Then within the structure of our time God acts in accordance with His attributes to ensure the best possible outcome due to lousy choices and decisions made by us.

Aggghhh, there¡¦s got to be a better way to get this across, I am so not good at this

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OKOKOK.try again.

What I'm trying to show in an absolutely clumsy way is the amazing ability of God to be able to take everything into account. This is way hard to get my head around at 11 PM.

God knows that every free willed decision we make, every voluntary and involuntary action we take will have an effect on future events and future generations of our descendants on this planet. So does that spell out predestination? Well in a sense yes but in reality no because with free will involved very few things are predetermined or set in concrete. Every action resulting from a free willed choice has an eternal effect that ripples down through time with an effect.

OK suppose Tony has a decision to make.

For that decision there are 20 possible outcomes.

For those 20 possible outcomes there are 400 possible outcomes assuming there are 20 outcomes as the standard.

For those 400 possible outcomes there are another 20 possible outcomes.

150 decisions later and we have a possible 2.8545E+196 possible outcomes for one individual who makes more than 150 conscious and subconscious decisions per minute.

Take that figure and multiply by 6 billion individuals making decisions.
Then factor in that this possible amount of outcomes is instantaneous from moment to moment or second to second and multiply this by the sum of time lived and potential life remaining for these six billion individuals¡K¡K¡K¡K¡K.well it¡¦s a pretty big sum with a very large number of probable outcomes hey?

So do you know anyone who¡¦s capable of seeing all these possibilities? All these outcomes and their effects from a micro to macro level and beyond into realms that we don¡¦t even know exist?

Beyond into what all these decisions will spell out for the Amalakites and their descendants? Decisions that have been affected by forces beyond their natural senses? Decisions that have been to a degree shaped by their fallen nature? Decisions made in semi ignorance of the one that they rebelled against but at the same time made in abstinent rebellion and refusal to consider what and who it was that they kicked against?

When is enough enough and then God says no more? At what point does God say that there is no possible way to deal with these people to make them understand apart from the way that they have treated others. Apart from allowing what they have inflicted upon others to be returned to them and to be their own undoing. At what point does God look at all the potential possibilities and see that the hearts of the people He would otherwise choose to let live call for their judgement? God in His infinite wisdom, in His infinite knowledge, in His infinite ability to see from a perspective that we can not even find the words to correctly or logically explain? God who¡¦s ways are not ours, who¡¦s integrity to His character and nature is beyond our minds capacity to absorb.

S7 + others, I¡¦m way tired and have probably made little or no sense, its early AM, its wet and windy and I¡¦m cold and tired. Beats me why I do this? Why I rack my brain so hard and dredge my heart so deep.

Man my head hurts, this is way hard for a simple person like me to explain let alone grasp.

Hey Plato or Boris, can't one of you two smart guys write me a formula for this

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Pleeeassssse?

Oh well, off to bed.

Allcare

Sleepy H2o


[This message has been edited by Tony H2o (edited September 05, 2000).]

 

Tony H2o, well, your posts covered a lot of ground (and a LOT of computer screen...)and it certainly was a better attempt to rationalize things than I have seen before now. However, it still leaves Yahweh as the moral equivalent of Hitler or Jeffrey Dahmer. The claim that he has a plan for them does not give him the right to murder innocent infants. You indicated there are no innocents because of the disease of sin. If humans suffer from the disease of sin it is ONLY because Yahweh has chosen to continue infecting us. The concept of original sin is a gross violation of any valid concept of justice.

In your posts and in what I have read of the Bible, it is only the Isrealites that ever received the covenant that Yahweh formed with Abraham. So, the Amalakites are sitting around, trying to defend themselves from various empire builders like the Egyptians when all of a sudden they are INVADED by this huge army of folks who CLAIM to have the one true religious path. Now all the Amalakites have to do is ignore thier king, dishonor the teachings handed down to them from their fathers and mothers, calmly stand aside and let this plague of locusts called the Twelve Tribes of Isreal march into their land, (gee, will they really march back out like they claim they will?) oh and as a token of their submission, they must mutilate themselves and their children (or at least the males thereof). Did I miss any thing?

There is a quote (I don't remember where I first saw it) that says that one country's angels are their neighbor's devils. I can only believe that this is the case with all references to the religious practices of any of the neighbors of Isreal. Yes, maybe some of them did things that I would not approve of; I'll need reliable evidence before I will accept the possibility that SOME of the ADULTS did anything worth execution. The murder of infants, the destruction of animals only shows that Yahweh was a sick sadistic bastard. Whether or not Jesus bothered to pull them out of Hell later is irrelevant. Each and every infant had the right to grow to the point where free will could be exercised.

Frankly, there is a much better explanation for the various genocides commited in the name of Yahweh, as listed in the Old Testament.

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Greenwood priest

 

As an aside, Tony H20, you commented that you didn't like having pieces of your post pulled out in quotes? I would point out that it is a good way to insure that everyone reading the new post can see your text to understand just what exactly the comments refer to.

These are weighty issues and I hate the sound bite / bumper sticker philosophy that permiates this society so I will not suggest that you shorten your responses, but the only way to make coherent comments on them is to quote exurpts.

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Greenwood priest

 

Thankyou Greenwood,

I should clear up what I mean by that statement.

I don't like it when it is done in a way that distorts or directly seeks to inflame a discussion by quoting bits and pieces out of context.

That is probably a better way to put it.

Allcare

Tony H2o

 

Tony,

I acualy read your whole post, when they are so long it is not normal for me.

There are just a couple of points I want to touch on. Mostly becuase they are fundamental (at least in my opoin) to the post. In one section you stated that not only are we imperfect, but so is god. This begs two questions. Why then should he be the one judging us if he is imperfect too? Who judges his sins when he is not on his perfect behavior, and why should he not be judged for these sins? You also stated that he waited for X amount of generations to see if any subsequent generations would stray from thier sining past. The only problem I see with this is the fact that the bible states he is a all knowing god. If he is a all knowing god we would have had the forsight to see they would not change and stricked them down long before.

 

Well………Where do I start?………What can I say that would change your views? Change your understanding of what was and is transpiring before us, with us and ahead of us.

OK the only way I can see forward is line by line. I would like to be able to just come up with an analogy that could explain things but I’m afraid that the nature of what we are discussing goes beyond human sentiment and analogy.

A simple notion comes to mind in that God was different than Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot and whatever other dictators you may wish to compare Him. He was and is different in that He did not totally destroy without any possible means of escape. God did provide a way out for eternal creatures, Hitler on the other hand neither provided a means of escape or even contemplated a plan of restoration. God allowed the creatures He created the freedom of choice, and there were only two choices they could make, the right one or the wrong one. Hitler, Edi Amin etc did not give the people they destroyed a choice, the acts of atrocities carried out by them were against peoples who had not provoked them to the action they took.

Tell me this friend, how immoral is it to defend your family from unprovoked attacks? How immoral is it to endure these attacks time and time again, continually warning the attackers that if they persist then you will be forced to take drastic actions against them. Tell me how would you deal with the descendants of a nation who followed in the path of their fathers who followed the path of their fathers who followed the path of their fathers for 400 years carrying out the unprovoked attacks against your family? Do you think as with modern day extremists that there would be a slim chance of breaking the generational cycle? Do you think that you could convince a 8, 10, or 12 year old Bin Ladin extremist to unstrap the 10kg of high explosives from around him and not to blow up down town Jerusalem? Do you consider that from the day that this child was born he was taught hatred against a people group, hate that spanned generations before him, hate that is ingrained within his culture and beliefs that it blinds him to see any type of reason, any type of alternative? Do you think that God, my God does not see this and weep? Weep because He knows that this child, a seemingly innocent child has no chance of escape from the social, political and religious culture he or she is born into? Tell me what should God do? Tell me in your wisdom what you think the alternatives were? The alternatives for the children? What were the Amalakites going to do? Just hand their future generation over to the Kenites or another people group so that they could escape the wrath and judgement of God? No, in no way were they going to do this because they would bring these “innocent” children up to become the same people they were, with the same hatred, and the same violence, and the same contempt for the people of Israel and their God as they themselves had so deeply ingrained within their own social structure.

So please do tell me about moral justice, please do tell me about the approach you would take. But bear in mind that any resulting approach or solution to the problem must occur within the social, political, religious and historical structure that existed. Metering out a judgement that could be related to by the inhabitants and that would serve as a warning to others of the penalties that exist for outright disregard or warnings and outright contempt for the standards of moral conduct required to assure justice. Moral and social standards upon which today’s social structures are established. And at the same time take into account that any solution to the situation had to be brokered using the existing resources of that time and not by comparison to current day methods and resources.

Yes Greenwood it was a brutal and horrible situation in comparison to the methods and morality of our “modern” society with the advanced political and social welfare available to us. But please understand that God needed to deal with them in a way that the people of that time would understand. NOT ACCORDING TO THE WORLD AS IT IS TODAY, things were very, very different in that time frame.

OH and lets not forget that any recording of the solution and its outcomes must be done from a opposing view. What you are reading is the view of the situation as recorded by the people who were victorious and within the social, religious and political structure that existed within that window of time. It also is recorded within the peoples understanding and revelation of the God that they served which at the time was narrower than our understanding and our discernment of who He is and what He has done in comparison to theirs.

Greenwood, what happened was within the peoples of that times understanding and knowledge of valid justice. In our world today such a thing does appear as horrid, in our world today can you think of a similar recent example? I can, I can recall the worlds reaction to the Kosovo crises, how the western countries rallied to the aid of the people who were being driven from their homes by a brutal army. They were being attacked and destroyed without any provocation, and the west reacted by coming to their aid and defending them with advanced missile attacks that unfortunately affected the citizens of the attacking forces. Innocent victims? Innocent bystanders? Innocent casualties? Tricky question hey? Especially when you consider that in their daily lives, doing their daily things they were in acuality supporting the very war machine that was committing the very atrocities that the west reacted to.

How are we any better today? Oh I know we are a little more clinical, a little more precise in our reprisals. We attempt to ensure that the innocent people are not hurt in trying to bring an end to the bloodshed with bloodshed. But what happens when the dust settles? What relief, or what alternatives are offered to break the cycle of hatred? To break the bitterness being handed from generation to generation?

Even with all our modern political will and determination, even with all our social and humanitarian efforts, even with our precision bombing and clinical military analysis, even with major financial support or sanctions, even with the backing of the nations of the world have we surpassed these age old problems? Or are we simply candy coating deeper seeded problems?

So please feel free to share how you or the god’s you serve would deal with this?

With my God I can see effort, with my faith I can see reasons beyond the eyes of mortal man, with my limited intellect I can make sense of these things by taking them into the context that they happen in. By seeking an living relationship with my God that leads to an understanding beyond my own ability rather than having a knee jerked get my back up reaction which I used to do.

Mans fall is the cause effect and man chose to fall, we as individuals did not choose to be infected by this disease called sin but the fact remains that we are. It is not God who infects us with this it is us each and every one who chose to be subject to it just as Eve did and Just as Adam did. God provided a cure for it and that cure is the only way of dealing with it. The concept of original sin is a reality as is the concept of us being eternal creations, you may chose with the free will that God has given you to believe otherwise. Its your choice, but do not blame God for the results of your own choices, because He has provided a cure to the disease that would otherwise inhibit your ability to choose.

Covenant agreement, circumcision, reprisal judgement on Amalakites, teachings from generation to generation, wow this is a great list of what we learnt in negotiation skills as being RED words. That is words specifically chosen to entice an angry reaction from the other party so as to throw them off the main thread of discussion. Well done, we must have gone to the same school

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OK line by line:

Yes the covenant was established with Israel based on the obedience and faith of one man, Abraham. As a sign of that covenant the ritual of circumcision was brought about to differentiate the Hebrew people from the surrounding people. And when I say that I’m not inferring that they all line up and drop their pants to prove their allegiance. The sign was a private matter between the individual and God, it served as a reminder to the person that the mark they bore in their flesh was a mark that set them apart as an individual and as a part of a greater nation from the people groups that surrounded them. Also on a slight side note, sexual immorality was verboten and well what better way to remind a guy that he was in a covenant agreement when he was subject to this temptation? (That’s just a side thought of my own)

So the Amalakites were just sitting around doing the kingdom building thing, minding their own business and simply trying to defend themselves when necessary – NOT.

Yes I can imagine that they were a bit concerned and alarmed when the Israelites numbering towards 2 million came wandering through their lands, the lands that they as a nomadic race inhabited. As a nomadic race at that time they were not inclined to live within village walls and as such had no cities to defend. The Amalakites were essentially raiders and plunderers and it was these very actions that they chose to carry out against Israel over generations that angered God.

Note that its probably worth pointing out that the other peoples of the land (Kenites) who lived in a similar manner to the Amalakites showed kindness to the Israelites as they passed through the land. In return 400 years later God forgot not their kindness and instructed that Saul repay that kindness by sparing the lives of any Kenites who dwelt amongst the Amalakites. The Amakakites chose to do what they did without provocation, they chose the path of their own making and they reaped the reward of it. The Kenites chose also, however they chose to show goodness and mercy in place of hostility and were rewarded many generations on for these acts.

I’m pretty sure that any pagan who believes in karma will get a handle on this concept. As a Christian I see it as what Jesus referred to as the law of the harvest, as reaping what we sow. As a pagan a person may see this as karma, what you give is what you get back in return.
The difference being that I choose to see the God of Holiness, justice and righteousness as the one who determines the course and times of the actions in order to bring about a greater miracle, the miracle of salvation.

Regarding reliable evidence, well archaeology is a wonderful science that uses a lot of modern technology to guess what happened. And generally it’s the best guess taking into account as many contributing evidences and factors that wins the prize.

History is not an exacting science, and neither does literature give us the complete picture as it is generally a one sided account written from a set perspective as is this passage of text that we are discussing. The account of what happened was written within the framework of the society for which it was being recorded. It therefore must be noted that it has by way of that societies beliefs a natural tendency to be biased towards them and written in a fashion that strengthens that society and their views.

Had these events been recorded by another people group how do you consider it may have read? Would it have spoken of the atrocities committed by the Amalakites against the Israelites? Would it have been impartial or biased? We could ponder this for ages and be none the wiser

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Greenwood, any person can turn up here and make some strong assertions based on an excerpt from a text about the character and nature of an individual. I trust that you have considered this more deeply yourself than to fall into line with common practice

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You have said some thinks and made some strong assertions about the character of my God based on the passage in discussion. Assertions that grieve my heart for you as I truly believe they are based in ignorance of all factors and very much an emotionally based assertion. I would hope and pray that your assertions and that your evaluation of God as being a sick sadistic bastard goes beyond a few things that when taken into correct historical context do start to make sense, and when taken into spiritual context and what was achieved even more so.

If not then please evaluate the methods you use to evaluate the character and nature of an individual. I trust they go beyond a reaction to someone who may not share the same beliefs as you do? Or who may even confront the beliefs you have?

Sadly I think that regardless of what I say we will continue to see things in a different light. But then the following comes to mind that inspires me to keep trying, to fight on and to speak what I believe so that others may come to grasp and understand that what they may have been told or led to believe about my God, about who He is and what He has done, about His true character and nature is not entirely correct:

2 Timothy 4:
1 I give you orders, before God and Christ Jesus, who will be the judge of the living and the dead, and by his revelation and his kingdom;
2 Be preaching the word at all times, in every place; make protests, say sharp words, give comfort, with long waiting and teaching;
3 For the time will come when they will not take the true teaching; but, moved by their desires, they will get for themselves a great number of teachers for the pleasure of hearing them;
4 And shutting their ears to what is true, will be turned away to belief in foolish stories.
5 But be self-controlled in all things, do without comfort, go on preaching the good news, completing the work which has been given you to do.

I must finish off by saying that I am somewhat embarrassed and ashamed by the fact that you find my responses as a better attempt to rationalise things than you have seen before. I would have hoped that somewhere within Christendom some theologian would have been able to answer these and even more perplexing questions for you. Frankly I am rather naive when it comes to theology so I’m afraid you’ll have to settle for my contorted and fragmented attempts to explain things as God shows them to me. This may take some time on occasion as I do have a day job as well

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Allcare

Tony H2o

T6

Can't remember saying God was imperfect??

More input please

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Thanks

Tony

 

Thanks T6 for the questions, man I hope not too many others ask me questions because I just don¡¦t got the time to answer them all.

I had a little problem in that I don¡¦t remember the God is imperfect part ƒ¼ If I have stated this then I have made a very big boo-boo, and as such apologise profusely for any confusion caused.

I do like your questions however, they¡¦re very valid and I would like to respond to excerpts of them.

Well I don¡¦t think He is imperfect and am sorry again if I gave this impression or stated it somewhere. Darn well doesn¡¦t help the cause in trying to get people to understand who He is if I make such fundamental errors in my posts does it? So that basically puts Him back in the job with the right qualifications for it.

Yeah that whole time, come possible outcomes, come end result thing didn¡¦t quite happen the way I picture things in my minds eye.

God does have the foresight to see every possible outcome regardless of the infinite amount of variables that are involved.

I just had a picture of what I¡¦m trying to get at come into my mind, I¡¦ll try my best to capture it in words for us.

God sits external to our frames of reference, time, space, etc, and at the same time also internal to them as a part of their dynamics and functioning.

Within Gods macro view of all possible outcomes with all possible actions and reactions there are two extremes. In other words taking an external view of all.

One is that the end result will be that all of humankind suffering a lost eternity. Complete rejection of Him and all that He would desire for them by a choice of their own free will.

Two is that all of humankind come to a place of restoration with Him as their creator. A place of appreciation and recognition of who He is and what He has done on their behalf, and again by choice of their own free will.

And in between each extreme view is a seemingly infinite number of possible outcomes based on freewilled actions and reactions of humankind, physical actions and reactions of time, space and matter, etc. Remember the Tony makes a decision multiply by X multiply, multiply etc.

So God knows the totality of all possibilities and works within the constraints and confines of this realm to effect the best possible outcome He can influence whilst maintaining the integrity of His very character and nature. At the same time also ensuring that His attributes work with freewilled man within the confines of who He is.

This is how I can say that God is limitless and yet limited. He is limitless in His capacity to see and comprehend all things, all outcomes, all eventualities. Yet He limits Himself in the very way He interacts with His creation to ensure that they are Not completely destroyed by His Holiness and to ensure that He does not contradict His very own Character and Nature.

How else can I put this?

Pick the smallest number between 0 and 1, then divide it by 2. Darn it did it just get smaller? OK divide it by 2 again. What even smaller? Ok divide it by

100000000000......0

Still got a number? Yes you do, even between fixed constraints such as those that God sees in His micro vision of us there are infinite possible outcomes depending on the variables applied or the decisions made.

Pick the largest number you can think of, then multiply it by 2. Darn it did it just get bigger? OK multiply it by 2 again. What even bigger? Ok multiply it by

100000000000......0

Still get a bigger number? Yes you do, even beyond fixed constraints such as those that God sees in His macro vision of us there are infinite possible outcomes depending on the variables applied or the decisions made.

God is limitless in His perception of the macro and the micro. We are limited in the time of our existence, the number of decisions we make and the possible myriad of outcomes through actions, reactions and interactions although seemingly infinite to us are within the constraints of Gods perspective. Like Him looking at 0 and 1, and yet at the same time they are limitless within these constraints.

This is mind bending hey?

So in saying this one would then naturally assume that there are a finite number of possible outcomes. This would be based on the fact that as a universe that is a debateable number of years old there has to this very moment in time occurred if measurable XYZ number of actions and reactions that have occurred at a subatomic through to universal level.

Remember every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Well this stands true for direct physical interactions based on prior reactions, repeat ad nauseam. But a new question arises:

What changes the outcome of an action and reaction?

What gives us the unexpected outcome?

What causes things to not happen the way we have planned for them to happen or even expect that they will happen?

Answer = Choice, freewill, decision making.

OK pull it together time:

Man this is hard, my grey matter HP is in overdrive trying to come up with the words needed to explain something almost intangible.

Why Did God not see the final outcome and just fix it before it happened?

Answer = He did and He didn¡¦t, He saw every possible outcome with every possible decision and every possible action and every possible reaction within the constraints that these events were occurring like looking at an infinite number of numbers between 0 and 1. Which actual line or series of events would transpire out of every possible and plausible interaction and decision should He have planned on? Scary numbers hey? A little thing called free will that God designed into us at the creation of us so that we could have a meaningful and living relationship with Him rather than simply being drones on remote control to do His bidding. This simple little attribute that was placed in us because we are created in His image and He has this ability. This wonderful gift that was instilled into the dust that we are made of when God breathed life into us. This fraction of a moment ability, this thing that drives us to decide that we have rights, this thing that causes wars and peace amongst us, this thing that drives us to seek fulfilment and when we don¡¦t achieve it leaves us feeling empty.

Choice, decision, freewill all one and the same is the very reason why God allowed for what transpired to transpire. Why the events of past history are recorded and yet future history stands before us as though a hazy mist that we can dimly see a way forward through.

Do you see what I am saying T6? Do you see the awesomeness of the God I serve and yet at the same time the frailty? Do you see the anguish of knowing the darkest dark that can befall humankind and at the same time the most wondrous glory? Do you see the anguish and frustration of knowing that? And knowing that you are limited in and by the very character and nature you possess and by the very holiness that you are in the manner through which you can interact with your creation because this very thing. This thing called freewill and decision that has created a barrier, a disease between you both, a disease called sin.

God knew every possible outcome, God knew these things but He did not know the very decisions that men would make and which exact path that these decisions would lead humankind on. So God being true to Himself had to deal with man in a way to affect the best possible outcome whilst maintaining His integrity.

Remember when I first came here? How I spoke of our perception of God, of how our view of Him is limited because if He were to reveal all that He is to us we would in no way be able to withstand it, even as eternal creatures we would be destroyed by all that He is. Remember how I said that we are limited by our five senses and that with them and the range of emotions that God has endowed us with God reveals Himself to us. The interface between the two, the soul with all our emotions, and the body with all our senses, the interface between these parts of our being and God is our spirit. This is why Jesus stated that the time is coming when those who worship the Father will worship Him in Spirit and in Truth. To worship God in spirit is to be subject to the Holy Spirit of God and His control in our lives. This is called the Kingdom of God, this is why Jesus could say that the Kingdom of God is within you and why the Apostle Paul spoke of us as being the temple of the Holy Spirit. The Kingdom of God is a Kingdom that rules and reins in the hearts of people through obedience in love to the Holy Spirit and His truth. His truth being the Word of God that becomes written on our hearts and flows from within us like rivers of living waters.

I do hope that what I am saying makes sense to people, I do pray that God will open the eyes to see the truth.

The core of your question, why wait X generations before cutting them off? Why not just not allow them to exist in the first place? Why not just see that they would do what they did and stop it all? Why not stop them in the first generation so that the situation does not become exasperated and elevated?

I know it comes back to His character and the limits that His mercy places on Him before exacting His judgement. I don¡¦t know the exact whys for every situation because I don¡¦t have all the facts. But I do know that by the limits that God places on Himself, even not knowing those exact limits I do know that by these limits He acts. He acts in accordance with them so as to not contradict His very person. At what point exactly does He say enough and NO MORE! I don¡¦t know? I just don¡¦t know at this place in my walk with Him. Should He consider that I am capable of dealing with that knowledge and knowing how to use it to His glory then I am sure He will show me and that ¡K¡K..well being honest with you, I don¡¦t think knowing the person that I am, that this will happen to soon. I¡¦ve got a lot to learn and understand about what He has given me without Him overloading all those emotions, senses etc that I talked about earlier ƒº

I do cry out to know Him better, to be closer to His heart, to be able to see Him beyond my human abilities, to be walking in obedience to His word and ways. And with these things alone I have a long, long journey ahead let alone Him showing me more.

I like the story of Moses a lot and I have probably shared this before, but what the heck

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Moses was a man I can relate to in a big way, early in his life (40) he made a mistake that cost a life. This caused him to flee into the wilderness and essentially disappear for about 40 years. We don¡¦t hear a lot about those 40 years and what he went through, we know a lot about what happened after he returned from it but what about during it?

What kind of wilderness experience was it? What did it drive him to or from? What kind of sorting of his beliefs took place? What did he dream of as he wandered through the lonely hills and valleys tending cattle and sheep? On the star filled nights when he was alone with his thoughts and the God of his ancestors that he felt he desperately failed, what kind of sorting of his mind, his heart, his emotions took place?

Its for me a bit like your question T6, you¡¦d like to know the answer, you¡¦d like to understand, but sometimes these things are a little beyond us aren¡¦t they?

Rest assured my friend I don¡¦t know it all, but having considered and thought deeply about my God. Having spent time with Him just reading about Him and having asked Him into my life, I know 100% iron clad that there is an answer to all our questions. If I ever fully understand God¡¦s timing and the way He interacts with us 100% I think I will be older than this body I currently inhabit is capable of.

Can I ask a question in return?

Why do you want to know this?

For what reason do you ask?

Allcare

Tony H2o


[This message has been edited by Tony H2o (edited September 09, 2000).]

 

Tony,

I didn't find what you were saying to be to hard to understand. I likened it to QED. When you get down to the subatomic level many things seem to be extreamly wierd, but when you come to terms with the fact that the subatomic world is not a duplicate of the macro world it's not to hard. Then through in the fact that there are just things that we can not see, and have to examine things by thier "shadows" and not by directly looking at the object it looks alien. In reality it isn't alien, it's part of the universe, just hard to examine.

I ask becuase I like to try and understand the view points and beliefs of others, it intrigues me. Mostly I like to learn, I feel there is never to much for me to learn or comprehend. I have become completly comfortable with my belief system, but still find the beliefs of others to be interesting.

In fact one of my base line beliefs is the fact that I may be wrong, hey I'm human, but do what I belive to be right and true to my heart. One of the ways that my beliefs have formed is through interaction with people of different faiths. One thing I knew early on was that I didn't want to just modify a particular faith to suit me. I just doesn't seem right.

Instead I let it happen naturaly. When I decided that the Christain / Chathloic (I was raised Chatholic) faith just didn't sit right with me, becuase in order for it to make senes and not seem to be a punishment I had to modify it, it was a big shock and hard to accept the lose of religon. This meant that there was no God to guide or save me from anything. After a while when life began to come into a better perspective for me it wasn't hard at all. Just took a little more faith in my self, and exceptign the unknow as the unknown.

I don't claim to know what happens after we die, but in the end we will all find out.

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Death is an experiance that no one has had. Well i'm starting to ramble so I'll talk toyou later.