Certain colorful members of our society notwithstanding (such as Charles Manson and Adolph Hitler), do you believe that the general inclination of people is toward good and we learn to be evil, or that we are born with an evil inclination and must learn how to be good? I believe that people are generally born good with the genuine "bad seed" being an exception.
Oxygen, I would have to agree that I think everyone is born good. The evil comes later in life from fear, anger, and lack of understanding. But when you think about it, we are born with the capabilities to have these emotions, so therefore we are born with the evil and it gows in people as they experience the world, and how much evil depends on how the child has learned to deal with their emotions, and what values the parents have taught. Again their are exceptions to this, I think, where the neural paths or something just doesn't connect right and you end up with a bad seed (which is a very generous term to give them).
I think human nature is to be first and foremost, inquisitive! The good and bad are totally subjective to the person's culture and conditioning. But in all successful societies, the ethic of 'good' has to be promoted, over the ethic of 'bad', otherwise the society is doomed from the beginning. Thence the creation of religions - totally man made and designed to promote the ethic of 'good', relative to and of benefit to, the partircular society. When societies were more insular, they tended not to hear about different belief systems and were quite happy and content to take their own native religions very seriously. The reality in the present day, is that most societies are not insular anymore and most people are educated and now everybody has a myriad of religions or belief systems to choose from. All this of course may lead to confusion, cynicism and even unbelief in the religion of your own culture and you may want to start to search for your own truth, which is a good thing. Are we born good, or are we born evil? It's a good question to ask in your quest for the truth, I hope my answer shed some light on it!
I pretty much go with Tablariddim. I don't think we are born good or evil. About the only thing we have in the begining is a desire, or need, whayever you call it to be eat, sleep, and be comterable. I don't think good or evil comes in at this point. When it does, I couldn't begin to guess. But at some point is does, unless of course you are born bad as Tablariddim spoke of.
Rom 3:10 "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one." Eccl 7:20 "For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not." Psa 14:1 "...there is none that doeth good. 2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. 3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one." Rom 5:12 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" At least that's what God has to say about this issue. Any questions? [This message has been edited by Caleb (edited September 15, 2000).]
We are innocent (child-like) until we learn the difference between good and evil. Once we become aware of the two, we have only to make a choice. Or it could be that good and evil are purely subjective in nature. You decide. That's my best guess, anyway. <img src = "http://www.exosci.com/ubb/icons/icon12.gif"> ------------------ It's all very large. [This message has been edited by Bowser (edited September 16, 2000).]
Just one question, Caleb - did God write that himself, or did he have one of us filthy, unrighteous, doers of evil take his dictation for him? ------------------ An ye harm none, do what ye will.
Emerald, Now come on girl be nice to the newies Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! At least give him a couple of weeks to get the flavour of this place before asking the sticky questions. Please Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Pretty please Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Allcare Tony
Tony, Doh! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Well, it is a fair question, and Caleb did indicate his readiness for questions, did he not? Oh, all right. I'll be nice - for a little while, but just for you, Tony. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Blessings, Emerald ------------------ An ye harm none, do what ye will.
Thanks babe, I like your nice side better than the EVIL one Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! "Just for you" Gawsh, I'm blushing Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Allcare Tony PS How have you been lately? All well? [This message has been edited by Tony H2o (edited September 16, 2000).]
Tony, Bwahahahaha...*stifling evil laughter*...okay, I'm back now. I'm doing pretty good - just getting over a pesky little cold. How about yourself? Did you ever get a computer of your own, or are you at work (it is Sunday in Oz, is it not???). Glad to see you're still around! Blessings, Emerald ------------------ An ye harm none, do what ye will.
Yeah Sunday 12:43AM, so what am I? Stupid or something? My beautiful wife is asleep in our nice warm bed and I should be there with her. Must be the coke I drank? Don't usually touch the hard stuff as it keeps me awake till all hours, makes me wonder what they put in it? Computer? Nah, never got one, I'm mentally projecting all this into the internet Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! OK I'll stop being cheeky. Still using the work laptop, got a free web provider and whammo here I am, well until they take the laptop away Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Snif, snif I knowb whab ibts libe. Well at least I used to know, I was getting bad colds and flu lots but then started taking colodial silver and have only had a runny nose once since. Suggest it may help you, especially good for digestion as well (bad gas fixer). Well I should hit the hay, if Megs wakes up and finds my side of the bed empty she's likely to lock the door and make me sleep with the computer Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Take care Tony
No, it's all right. As long as the questions aren't put forth with an overwelming stench of hate (which I've seen in some places), I don't mind them. I've done a little bit of debating on other forums before, so I'm not a complete newbie. 666: Not unless it's in the Bible. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Emerald: God "dictated" (theologians use the word "inspired" - it probably wasn't verbal most of the time) the text to humans who, sinful though they were, were trusting in God and seeking His will. Through the power of the Holy Spirit, His message was preserved through this process. What's really neat, is that God allowed each writter to write in their own personal style, thus we see David singing pastoral poems, while Paul uses a brilliant sense of logic, mixed with just a touch of sarcastic humor at times. It's fun to watch people on this forum, trying to guess the answer to this question, while God has already given us the answer - we just don't want to hear the answer. We want to believe that we can be good. [This message has been edited by Caleb (edited September 16, 2000).]
Caleb, In answer, I would like to quote one of the scriptures you had previously quoted yourself (Romans 3:11): My point is that since, according to the scriptures in the Bible, there is no one who understands or even seeks after God, who on this earth is qualified to transcribe his word? Furthermore, who is qualified to translate and/or edit what was originally written? If no one is qualified to reveal to us the true nature of THE INFINITE, UNKNOWABLE ALL, then how much credence can we give to what has been written in the Bible? I believe that is what Tony meant by a "sticky" question. He knows very well where I'm going with this. (Sorry, Tony - I don't know what came over me. I guess I just haven't been the same since the house fell on my sister. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ) Blessings, Emerald ------------------ An ye harm none, do what ye will.
hooboy, it seems like every debate I get into on any website always boils down to the question of predestination vs. free will. I saw that post and another thread here, and I've argued about it before on other websites. Somehow - this is being debated on the other thread, but I have never seen a complete answer - God chooses man (we are predestined before the beginning of the world) and man chooses God (though this doesn't seem to be as important, but there apparently is some choice involved). I have to agree with the person on the other thread (was it Hudson?) who said that we will never completely understand the ways of an infinite God. Unfortunately, this often seems like a cop-out of an answer. But anyway, after someone is redeemed, they are made 'a new creature.' They will still sin at times, but they do desire to serve God. No man is good by himself, but after being redeemed by God he seeks to please God. Notice that all the books of the Bible (at least the ones where we know the author) were written by saved people (either a saved a Israelite, or a Christian). Also, even if the men didn't seek God, God could still preserve His Word through them, since He is omnipotent. "...then how much credence can we give to what has been written in the Bible? " I Timothy 3:16 - "All scripture is given by ispiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."
I believe that we are born basically good. Most pagans I know believe the same way. Most atheists I know believe the same way. Have you no faith in mankind? I know this isn't true of all Christians, but most of the ones I have had personal, face to face dealings with have great difficulty seeing the light in people. Is it possible they are looking into a spiritual mirror and seeing the darkness in themselves?
Celeb, You can only guess that the people who wrote the bible did not take thier inspiration so strongly that they changed the entire meaning. With out knowing whether or not they put thier owning meaning and words into it you realy can't say God gave us the answer to anything. You can only say that Paul gave his answer. You say that we want to belive that we can be good. I get the impression that you want to belive in the bible so badly that you are willing to let faith in the unknown fill the gapping holes in the religon. You appear to be comming off verry arrogant from the starting line.
"Have you no faith in mankind?" To be blunt, NO! Because I know we are all sinners, and mankind, left to his own "goodness" will rebel against God, and his absolute standards of goodness. Hitler, in some pervertred way, thought he was doing the world a favor. He was living up to his own standards of goodness. I'm sure the shooters in Littleton were doing something that - well maybe they didn't call it good - but something that they wanted to do, which made it right for them (though, sadly, for no one else). The problem is that, like in the time of the Israelite Judges, everyone is doing what is "right" in their own eyes. The whole question is how do we define what really is right and good? You point out that most atheists and pagans believe that man is born basically good. That was my point - that man wants to think he can be good without God. I will not deny that non-Christians can do alot of things that are seemingly good, but that doesn't change the fact that they all (Christians too) have an inherently sinful and selfish nature. You say that you believe what you do, but all you have to back it up is your own ideas and interpretations of history. I have the God who created us all and loves us very much telling us how we rebelled against Him. No one can be a true Christian and believe that man is inherently good. If man did not have a sin nature, there would have been no reason for Christ to die in our stead, and hence no reason to become saved.
Celeb, If mankind did not have a sin nature thier would be no need for God or the Chatholic, Christain, or any other religon based on the two. Also from the rest of your post it sounds as if you are tacking the ownership of the sin from us and onto God. If we are incapable of doing good, then it is out of our controll. Even after being "saved" we are incapable of reaching the goal. Regarding selfishness... Selfishness is the part of our nature that has allowed mankind to be around as long as it has. On the same note charity has also allowed us to be around as long as we have. It's a healthy balance between the 2. Why would a God say not to be something that is required for our survival?? Further more why in his "grand vision" would he require us to do or be something he does not want???
