Do Homosexuals Need to be Healed of their Homosexuality? *A must read*

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Flash, May 25, 2000.

  1. MoonCat Registered Senior Member

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    Lori,

    I understand you a little better now, but I think your definition of submit is much different than mine. I'm not even sure that's what the bible means by submit, but I'm definitely no bible scholar so I'll leave that alone.

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    To be sure I'm clear here - to you "submit" means more like "make yourself vulnerable", am I right?

    This I can agree with, that makes a lot more sense to me. But I also think it goes both ways - the man sould also make himself vulnerable to his wife, don't you think?

    I think everything in a relationship needs to be mutual. Mutual love, mutual trust, mutual goals in life... Otherwise the relationship isn't balanced and won't last, at least not happily. One partner cannot be completely open and vulnerable and trusting while the other one hides their feelings and doesn't open up, don't you think?

    I think that's part of our "Asshole male" problem in this country - men are taught not to feel things, that they must provide for their families or be failures, real men don't cry, yadda yadda yadda, and how can anyone be a whole, normal, loving person under those kinds of pressures?? So they get bitter and start to treat women (and everyone else, but women in particular) like trash. That's my opinion anyway.

    Sure, men and women are different, no doubt about it. And thank the gods for that, huh? I sure would miss men if they all disapeared or turned into women!! What a mess that would be! But anyway, yah, we're different, but we're also very similar. I think we are more alike than dissimilar, all things considered. And that's all a generalization, on an individual basis we are ALL just as different from eachother regardless of our genetalia. "Unique, just like everyone else." LOL.
     
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  3. Greenwood priest Registered Member

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    I think that there are a couple of points that should be addressed regarding this thread. First, it has been shown that homosexual behavior occurs in nature. Sorry I don't remember where, but I say a report on an experiment with rats that showed that when too many rats were cooped up in a given area, a number of very human behaviors started to appear. Behaviors like homosexuality random assaults, murder. I also have dim memories of mention that certain other animal species also exibit homosexual tendancies. This tells me that homosexuality is natural.

    If one claims that "God" created us in his own image, then that image must include homosexuals. Everything that I have seen indicates that homosexuals are born that way. Given the persecution that homosexuals face even in this country, supposedly the land of the free, I can't believe that anyone would accually choose such a life style

    Either way, there is nothing to cure. Its like asking if blonds need to be cured.
     
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  5. Someone7 Registered Senior Member

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    Hmm, do I believe homosexuals need to be healed of their homosexuality? No, there really isn't a need for homosexuality to be cured, since only a very small portion of society is homosexual. But could it be cured anyway? That I'm not sure of. The data I have seen doesn't conclusively indicate a genetic cause. Some of the evidence I have read, such as the study done by neuroanatomist Simon LeVay, seemed to be reaching. It reports that a localized cluster (a "nucleus") of cells in the brains of homosexual men was twice as large by volume on autopsy as in heterosexual men. This study was severely flawed for two reasons. First, there is no conclusive definition of homosexuality and heterosexuality, and the subjects were dead, thus there is no way to prove they were homosexual. A study done a year before that was published in Brain Research said the same thing, yet made no definite claims. More recently, yet another difference in another part of the brain was reported, also in a prestigious publication, the Proceedings of the National Academy of Science of the United States of America. This study claimed that a difference between male homosexuals and heterosexuals was found in the anterior commissure, a structure that divides the left and right halves of the brain. The authors found that the anterior commissure was larger in women and homosexual men than in heterosexual men. This was a group statistical difference, however: the size of the anterior commissure in 27 of the 30 homosexual men actually fell within the range of sizes found among the 30 heterosexual men. As did LeVay, these authors used brain samples obtained preponderantly from men who died of AIDS, introducing another uncontrolled variable into their work.

    Of course, the studies never can conclude if the subjects always had enlarged parts of their brain, or if they grew like because of their lifestyle. In the 1992 February issue of Newsweek, a study shown that in individuals who became blind as adults and then learned Braille, the part of the brain governing the right index finger became progressively enlarged. It's reasonable to assume homosexual behavior could have the same effect on the brain as learning Braille, of course, only further study will prove or disprove this hypothesis.

    As I see it, the most likely cause of, or the main factor involved it due to the environment in which the homosexual grew up. Many studies have documented how often homosexual men experience sexual abuse while growing up, the same is true for pedophiles.

    Not saying conclusively that homosexuality is a result of environment, but data of this nature can't be ignored, and neither could better evidence towards a genetic origin. Until much better evidence comes to light on the origins of homosexuality, I will assume environment is the major factor behind homosexuality.
     
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  7. Flash Registered Senior Member

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    Someone7,
    Well, you know the saying when one "assumes" *S*

    Honestly, I did not suffer from abuse...nor have any of my lesbian or homosexual friends. No, we cannot speak for the entire gay and lesbian population...but, you would think that somewhere in the cluster of friends I have ...if environment was so strong...one of them would have been abused.

    Quite honestly, if a person is at peace with their sexual preference...what's the big deal?

    As a side note...there are heterosexuals who have been sexually abused by one of the opposite sex and are still heterosexual... I'm not really sure where you are going with this?
     
  8. Someone7 Registered Senior Member

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    "Someone7,
    Well, you know the saying when one "assumes" *S*"

    Well, I went into detail about why I assume it mainly has to do with environmental factors, and I didn't say I was 100% for sure, just that in light of the evidence, there isn't a reason to think genetics play a major role. I'm thinking critical, not wishfully.

    "Honestly, I did not suffer from abuse...nor have any of my lesbian or homosexual friends. No, we cannot speak for the entire gay and lesbian population...but, you would think that somewhere in the cluster of friends I have ...if environment was so strong...one of them would have been abused."

    Environmental factors doesn't equal sexual abuse, or necessarily any abuse at all. It means the person's life experiences have caused them to become homosexual, whether or not any abuse took place in their life. Just because your or none of your friends say they have been abused, doesn't mean they haven't. Some people are embarrassed to admit it, others just block out the experience. Not saying they did, but it's not an impossibility.

    "Quite honestly, if a person is at peace with their sexual preference...what's the big deal?"

    Nothing really, but when it's claim it has a genetic origin, their must be sufficient evidence to validate this claim.

    "As a side note...there are heterosexuals who have been sexually abused by one of the opposite sex and are still heterosexual... I'm not really sure where you are going with this?"

    In the studies I mentioned (L. S. Doll et al., "Self-Reported Childhood and Adolescent Sexual Abuse Among Adult Homosexual Bisexual Men," Child Abuse and Neglect 16, no. 6 (1992), pp. 855-64. & D. M. Greenberg, J. M. Bradford, and S. Curry, "A Comparison of Sexual Victimization in the Childhoods of Pedophiles and Hebephiles," Journal of Forensic Science (United States) 38, no. 2 (March 1993), pp. 432-36.) most of the homosexual men who reported abuse reported that an older, stronger male partner was responsible for it 94% of the time. The average age of men who reported abuse was 10, the average difference of age between the victim and the abuser was 11 years. Where I'm going by mentioning these studies, is that a significant number of male homosexuals experience same-sex sexual abuse as children (about 37% in this study). They interviewed 1,000 homosexual men, and around 370 reported abuse. Granted, a larger study would be needed to conclusively say whether or not same-sex sexual abuse happened to a third of homosexual men, but if this study is correct, then you can't ignore this evidence. Doing so would be illogical.

    I'm adding this because I think you misunderstand the purpose of citing these studies. I'm not saying same-sex sexual abuse turns people into homosexuals. What I am implying is that same-sex sexual abuse is an environmental factor that most likely played a key role in the develop of homosexuality in a third of male homosexuals, which indicates environmental factors do indeed play a key role in the development of homosexuality. I hope this clarifies what I am getting at.

    [This message has been edited by Someone7 (edited September 04, 2000).]
     
  9. Bowser Namaste Valued Senior Member

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    Lori,

    Thank you for being honest. Yes, we men are often right, and so are women. You shined some light on the idea that a relationship shouldn't be a contest of dominance.
    <hr>

    Do Homosexuals Need to be Healed of their Homosexuality? *A must read*

    It depends. Are you willing to accept the idea that there is something wrong with homosexuality?


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  10. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    I just thought it worth mentioning that this Sunday (9/10) the one and only God Hates Fags will be in town. Freddie Phelps & His Baptist Bunch are descending upon a local (Seattle) church to protest a gay Episcopal preacher. (Since he's already badgering other sects of faith, why doesn't he protest Jewish synagogues or Muslim mosques because they're not Christian?) Anyway, cause number two is apparently to openly celebrate the death of two people in a recent plane crash who happened to be gay.

    Anyway, since Freddie is coming to town to tell us that God made a plane crash just so he could purge two fags from the planet ... is this really happening?

    I mean, look at this! Now I'm going out into the streets to openly defend a Christian church! Me! Are there any apocalyptics in the forum? It might be time to start counting the days.

    I just can't believe it's coming to this. Of course, afterward, if I ever bear children, I can regale their children with the truth of a God--any God, really--because I will remember the day the Devil came to my home town.

    Maybe I'll dig up an earthbound star, dress in black and green, wear black lipstick and carry my sacred antler (yes, I have a sacred antler from--well, after, actually--my Satanist days) and thank Brother Freddie for so faithfully doing the work of my former Dark Lords. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if he pulled his skin off to show me the Devil's flesh beneath.

    At least the sh*t won't hit the fan; it'll be sitting on the streetcorner holding a picket-sign from Westboro.

    on the prowl ...,
    Tiassa

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  11. Flash Registered Senior Member

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    Someone7,

    Ok, I realize what environmental factors mean...it's just that in your prior post it appeared that was what your beef was.
    True, people can hide things about what have happened to them...however, the friends that I speak of I know VERY well...and know that I know more than likely are not hiding anything like that from me. We are allll very close.

    Look, environmental factors play a lot in MANY things regarding us ALL...be it homo or heterosexual. The bottom line is....IF this is what a person is most comfortable with and and peace with...then it doesn't matter what the cause is. Further, I do not care that it is "abnormal".... As long as there is no harm intended...then it shouldn't matter to you or anyone else. How would you feel, being a heterosexual, if society ruled heterosexuality as the abnormal...and thus, tried to preach to everyone just how wrong it is...and ohhhhhh not everyone is doing it so it must be wrong.

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    We are SIMPLY talking about sexual perference here...not murder...not anything violent whatsoever. We are speaking of two CONSENTING adults. PERIOD. If it makes you feel uncomfortable...well, then join the rest of the "real world". Not everything that everyone does makes one comfortable. But, being a lesbian, cannot live my life for my parents, relatives, friends, or foes...but, for me. You have this right...should the rest of the "gay/lesbian" population?

    ********************************************

    Bowser,

    Well, Bowser, did you read the MEAT of that question??????? hmmmmmmmmmmmm

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    No, I do not accept the "idea" that there is something wrong with homosexuality..and further, you cannot state it as fact. END OF STORY.
     
  12. Someone7 Registered Senior Member

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    I guess it is my only beef, some of the posts in this thread imply that homosexuality is “behavior”, whatever the hell that is supposed to mean. I was just attempting to clarify that indeed, it’s wrong to say either environment factors or genetics (or “behavior”) is the sole cause of homosexuality conclusively, because we don’t know for sure at the moment. The best answer is a combination of genetics and environment. As I see it, if genetics play a role at all (which they probably do), the role is minor, and only makes the person more likely to become homosexual because of environmental influences. But, it’s just a hypothesis, I can’t say conclusively that this is so, just in light of the data I have seen, this is my best guess.

    In a lot of cases also, people are more open with strangers about things like that than they are friends and relatives. This closeness with your friends could be exactly why they haven’t mentioned it, it’s a possibility, but an improbable one, just as is blocking the experience out.

    “Look, environmental factors play a lot in MANY things regarding us ALL...be it homo or heterosexual. The bottom line is....IF this is what a person is most comfortable with and and peace with...then it doesn't matter what the cause is. Further, I do not care that it is "abnormal".... As long as there is no harm intended...then it shouldn't matter to you or anyone else. How would you feel, being a heterosexual, if society ruled heterosexuality as the abnormal...and thus, tried to preach to everyone just how wrong it is...and ohhhhhh not everyone is doing it so it must be wrong. We are SIMPLY talking about sexual perference here...not murder...not anything violent whatsoever. We are speaking of two CONSENTING adults. PERIOD. If it makes you feel uncomfortable...well, then join the rest of the "real world". Not everything that everyone does makes one comfortable. But, being a lesbian, cannot live my life for my parents, relatives, friends, or foes...but, for me. You have this right...should the rest of the "gay/lesbian" population?”

    It’s not something I really care about. I don’t believe in heaven or hell, or Yahweh and Jesus, or any other deities, and I don’t plan to waste my short time on Earth caring about what people are doing that I will never meet. Indeed, I think I have to judge that you are trying to convince yourself that homosexuality is normal, since you act as if I said it was a bad thing that should be stopped at all costs. In fact, I can’t even understand what you mean with some of your statements. “You have this right...should the rest of the "gay/lesbian" population?”” what does that mean?
     
  13. Flash Registered Senior Member

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    771
    Someone7,

    Look, I understand what you are saying in the above...I really do. However, the friends that I am speaking of tell things that would knock your socks off... You must understand...I do KNOW these friends of mine...very well.

    Perhaps I misunderstood what you were tring to get across. I apologize. It's just that I have met sooo many people, here and otherwise, that seem to think that just because being gay/lesbian deviates from the norm...automatically makes it a bad thing. For example, read Bowser's posts...he believes homosexuality is wrong because it deviates from the "norm". My beef has to do with misunderstanding/ignorance on this subject. For Christ's sakes...there once was a person on this board who tried to equate homosexuality with pedophilia!!! I believe that as long as something causes no harm...and as long as two consenting adults are involved...(and both parties are at peace with themselves) then what the heck does it matter?????? I may not like what you do with every detail of your life...and you mine...but, as long as I am not harming anyone ...big bloody deal. I believe that society as a whole places so much judgement on other lives that it is unreal. If the "majority" isn't doing it ...thus, it automatically is deemed wrong. That is my beef. That is nothing but being close-minded and ignorance.

    Again, I apologize...obviously I misread what you meant... My last prior statement simply meant this: Well, first, like I have stated before, many believe that being a homosexual ='s wrong BECAUSE it deviates from the "norm". That type of reasoning, to me, does not make sense whatsoever. I was taking a wild guess that you were trying to
    state that because homosexuality is "abnormal" we, homosexuals, do not have a right to be who we are...however, heterosexuals do. Again, I am sorry as I obivously misunderstood what you meant.

    To me ..causes &/or effects do not matter...what matters is that one feels at peace with what/who they are...period.

    Take care...

    Flash
     
  14. Bowser Namaste Valued Senior Member

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    "To me ..causes &/or effects do not matter...what matters is that one feels at peace with what/who they are...period."

    So, if the rest of us desire to keep it out of public view, you don't have a problem with that? In Portland, we have a problem with homosexual men making public restrooms and public parks a place for expressing who they are. Should I be at peace with this? Or should I view them as pond scum?

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  15. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    Bowser--

    When I lived in Salem, Oregon, we had the same problem with heterosexual prostitution.

    Is this somehow a separate issue?

    thanx,
    Tiassa

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  16. Bowser Namaste Valued Senior Member

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    No. You are absolutely right. They are very similar. They both lack something, don't they. <img src = "http://www.exosci.com/ubb/icons/icon12.gif">

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    [This message has been edited by Bowser (edited September 12, 2000).]
     
  17. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    As a general idea .... Given that there's a lot of argument over "natural", what exactly is that? Let's try some examples, since our rhetorical summaries are as subjective as "up" when there's no gravity.

    For instance ... (and I've scanned through the thread, but I'm not sure I'm not covering stale ground):

    * What is natural?

    To examine the bulk of threads at Exosci dedicated to homosexuality, its supporters, its detractors, and the fictitious equation that sleeping with another human being is tantamount to raping your children on video with animals .... (ad nauseam)

    So, it's a matter of whether or not homosexuality is "natural", or not, for some people.

    These people I would ask: "What is normal? Is it 'heterosexuality' exclusively? Missionary heterosexuality? Is fellation 'normal' or perverse? What of frigidity, or even of elective celibacy? What of self-gratification? What of those people who participate in 'extreme sports' because those sports are 'better than sex'?"

    I mean, it seems to me we box ourselves in when we decry something as unnatural simply because we don't have the balls to admit that we're flat-out scared of things we don't understand. Furthermore, I often wonder if people sometimes refuse to understand something because their xenophobia is much more comfortable than stable function. Lysander Spooner noted this, in 1875, when he pointed out that parents often will keep their children functionally ignorant or in a state of unfounded fear in order to exact some behavioral result from the child.

    It seems to me that if we assert that heterosexuality is "normal" or "natural", we must define why.

    The coupling of a man and a woman ... is it for reproductive purposes? Recreational and pleasurable purposes?

    Viagra, silicone, $40 panties ... it all goes toward the normalcy of heterosexual intercourse.

    Anyway, I'm rambling, so I'll stop. That and I apparently have a last bit of work to do ... but, really ... what are the implications of declaring something to be "natural", or to declare "natural" as a superlative state instead of a natural state.

    thanx,
    Tiassa

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  18. Bowser Namaste Valued Senior Member

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    Tiassa, you have sucked me dry...of words, that is. I'll just say that homosexuality is icky; and with that, I leave the boards to more interesting topics. I might post the URL's for my pages on the topic when they become available.

    Take care, Everyone--whatever your sexual orientation might be.<img src = "http://www.exosci.com/ubb/icons/icon7.gif">

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    [This message has been edited by Bowser (edited September 13, 2000).]
     
  19. MoonCat Registered Senior Member

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    Ah-hah, the crux of the argument:

    "homosexuality is icky"

    To some, perhaps. To others, it is wonderful. To still others, it's not something to get your feathers ruffled about.

    I'm mainly of the third sort, and can easily see why people are of the second sort. But the first sort...makes me think of those women that don't like sex of any kind because it's "icky". Strikes me as a bit repressed, but that's just my opinion.

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  20. Bowser Namaste Valued Senior Member

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    I could easily make that same conclusion regarding the sexual limitations of the "second sort" and the "third sort" MoonCat. All of us, from what I've read, have limits in regards to who we will sleep with (we will classify bisexuals as being the fourth sort, just so we can avoid another argument).

    Now, since we both have limitations, I can also make the conclusion that you and I are very much the same...we are both sexually repressed. I'm not a hypocrite, however. I do practice what I preach.<img src = "http://www.exosci.com/ubb/icons/icon10.gif">

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    [This message has been edited by Bowser (edited September 13, 2000).]
     
  21. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    I won't suggest what you're preaching.

    --Tiassa

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  22. Someone7 Registered Senior Member

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    When you ask “what is natural” or “what is normal”, a clear definition of such words must be defined. Both these words have several definitions, which makes it harder though. Here are several definitions of normal:

    Normal - Conforming with, adhering to, or constituting a norm, standard, pattern, level, or type; typical:
    Functioning or occurring in a natural way; lacking observable abnormalities or deficiencies: Relating to or characterized by average intelligence or development: Free from emotional disorder: The usual or expected state, form, amount, or degree: Correspondence to a norm: An average.

    Homosexuality is not normal in most of these definitions of the word, simply because very few people are homosexual. However, the question of whether homosexuality is natural or not, is a tougher one. Here are some definitions of natural:

    Natural - Present in or produced by nature: Of, relating to, or concerning nature: Conforming to the usual or ordinary course of nature: Not acquired; inherent: Having a particular character by nature: Not produced or changed artificially; not conditioned: Expected and accepted: Faithfully representing nature or life: Established by moral certainty or conviction: Being in a state regarded as primitive, uncivilized, or unregenerate:

    With some of these definitions, one could say homosexuality is not natural (Conforming to the usual or ordinary course of nature: Expected and accepted: Established by moral certainty or conviction). Some could say it is natural (Present in or produced by nature (it does happen, whether or not it has a genetic origin)). A few are inconclusive because we don’t exactly know the origins of homosexuality (Not acquired; inherent: Having a particular character by nature: Not produced or changed artificially; not conditioned).

    As for myself, because of the subjectivity of the term natural, I abstain from answering, though I do not at this time believe homosexuality has a genetic origin (as in, I don’t believe there is a “gay gene”, I do believe people with certain genes could be more likely to become homosexual). Whether or not a genetic origin would mean it’s natural or not, is up to subjective interpretations of the definitions of these words, and I don’t really like playing word games.
     
  23. Bowser Namaste Valued Senior Member

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    Someone7,

    "...though I do not at this time believe homosexuality has a genetic origin (as in, I don’t believe there is a “gay gene”, I do believe people with certain genes could be more likely to become homosexual)."

    I never gave that genetic thing much notice, but you would think that Natural Selection should have weeded homosexuality out of the picture long ago if those genes had ever entered the pool. In practice, homosexuality doesn't produce any offspring. I think you have something there, S7. Maybe it is simply a choice.

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