Evidence that God is real

Discussion in 'Religion' started by James R, Aug 31, 2018.

  1. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    13,077
    There is a sentence in the wiki article which says something to the effect "tends to be good IF THE ANSWER IS KNOWN"

    That is NOT Wisdom of the Masses, it's a test perhaps of general knowledge

    A question such as "does god exists?" will get vastly different results depending on the where asked

    So straight away rule the method as to being anything close to being scientific

    And in a age, where stuff we know now at the time was unknown, you will get a result which only reflects back the ignorance of the time

    Try these two questions today

    How much of the Universe can we see or detect?

    And

    What is Dark Matter?

    Really do you expect the Wisdom of the Masses to solve the problem?????

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  3. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    20,069
    Evidence helps with the credibility factor.
    Anil Seth proposes that we create our own reality and that only;
    "When people agree about their controlled hallucinations, we call it reality" (Anil Seth)
    (note: "controlled" meaning (re)-verifying your mental hallucination with external input, the evidence.)
    https://www.ted.com/talks/anil_seth_how_your_brain_hallucinates_your_conscious_reality

    Good stuff!
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2018
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  5. Acitnoids Registered Senior Member

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    704
    True, and one of the legitimate questions. However, we can use a double blind experiment where nobody knows how many beans are in the jar and the "crowd" as a whole will still be more accurate than any individual.

    The difference is, like your question about dark matter or my point about there possibly being "something" rather than "nothing" is that we have no way to verify the result. It doesn't mean the result is wrong per say.

    By you quoting the line "If the answer is known" .... are you suggesting that your conclusion is unsettled/unknown or that the Atheist point of view is correct? If the Atheist point of view is correct and known then this statistical method says otherwise.
     
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  7. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    per se

    Not a Grammar Nazi, just one of my pet peeves.
     
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  8. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    18,935
    This is a bit of an oversimplification. Most atheists do not assert that the answer is known; they assert that there is insufficient evidence to support it, and therefore - like a nigh-infinite number of other things in the universe (such as unicorns and orbiting teapots) it should not be treated as existing until it is warranted.
     
  9. Acitnoids Registered Senior Member

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    704
    I am the same same way with the word "got" being used in the present tense so I understand heh

    It just scratches the "ears".
     
  10. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    20,069
    That experiment is not accurately presented. It is not a "double blind" experiment at all.
    All the people can see the jar and the beans, thus the guess is based on visible evidence.

    OTOH, a guess that god exists is not based on any evidence and is a truly "blind" experiment, where people just take a stab based on what they have been told in the first place by people who already believed in a god without any evidence.

    You are presenting a false equivalence.
     
  11. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    13,077
    True nobody knows how many beans in the jar
    But many would know the rough size of a bean, rough capacity of the jar to give a rough estimate
    Some will over guess, some under
    This is NOT NOT NOT Wisdom

    At best it's The Rough Guess of the Masses Evened out

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  12. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    8,502
    I got an idea☺.

    Rather than relying on group think why not look at the evidence for God...when and if we ever get any that is....a little research shows there was no JC in reality but just one more pretender who claimed to be God amid many other sich pretenders...its a con folk ...designed to control you and take your money with a lieing promise of an afterlife and a false threat of eternal hell...what a kind loving god to create a hell ...what crap...

    Theists aint got nothing....as in no evidence.

    They do have a giant lie that they tell over and over but no evidence.


    They want God to be real with such a desprration they can not accept there is nothing to even hint at the being a god...nothing...

    Really if there was a god could it not appear...of course it could ...so why no appearance...cause it simply aint there.

    And these folk who buy the oft repeated con that a man is god are really blinded by their wishful thinking on the one hand and irrational fear of hell on the other.

    There is no evidence and of course there can be no evidence of a mythical being that does not exist.

    The universe is eternal and as such required no creator that is why there is no creator..simple.

    God was invented by humans to control other humans ... to offer the ultimate boggyman to back up some grumpy old mans ideas on what food you should eat and to ensure folk were so scared of having sex the population would remain static and stupid.

    It is such a crock ...bronze age crock and is the single most dangerous threat to the survival of mankind.

    Remember that there was a time where folk had no idea about germs...if you got sick it was ..the will of God...what nonsence and yet theists can look and see how stupid those folk were and can not look to themselves and realise that today theists are still that ignorant...

    And our best evidence to date is a suggestion to ask the mob... so let us pray...dear father who does not exist give these poor folk the wisdom to stand where the lightening will strike.

    Alex
     
  13. Acitnoids Registered Senior Member

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    704
    You "Have" an idea.

    Yeah, I see what you did there lol. That's unfortunate, I actually respect you and your views.

    The rest of your post does not interest me because I am neither a theist or an atheist. I am agnostic.

    This post asked for evidence for a "god". I played a devils advocate and gave a statistical method known as "The Wisdom of the Crowds". I even said that there were reasons that this method is unsuitable to answer this particular question. So far, the only counter has been; "this method works best if the answer is known". This argument does not work for Atheists. It only works for Agnostics.

    Atheists feel their view is known and fact which nullifies the argument that the answer must be known. According to Atheists there is NO "god" period.

    Agnosticism says we do not know the answer therfore the argument against this method would hold.

    All I can say is, at least you didn't say "I have got an idea". As deliberate as your jab was, it could have been worse heh
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2018
  14. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    8,502
    No I got an idea☺.

    Your not gunna talk me outta vat.

    I know what I got and have not got.

    And I know what we have not got here in this thread we aint got any evidence unless you got something new.

    But so far we aint got zip.

    I got my idea reading stuff here and noting that all your talk about asking yhe mob was a pretty sad attempt of proving there is a god...we pulled you up and sadly you dug your hole deeper...

    Unfortunate is when you aint got an idea and conned by religion.
    Unfortunate is when you sit on the fence proclaiming you have no belief one way or the other when a little research would have you at least an atheist maybe even better...an eternalist.

    Look how about you stop talking about me and let someone else talk about me☺.

    I think I got respect from showing I got a kind heart and got the inoccence of a young child...not to mention the thinking capacity of a young child...well almost got that much.

    I havent been very well myself..are you taking anything for it..what are the symptoms beside indecision and professed confusion?
    Not being able to muster enough logic to realise asking a mob for an opinion is totally unreliable.

    And I applaude you for drawing attention to it but unfortunately most everyone wont buy it.

    So what else have you got.

    Yes but that does not mean agnostics are stupid just because they fall for stupid ideas.

    What else have you got.

    Actually the position of a true atheist is not to say there is no God but to express no belief in a God and to say to those who claim there is a God to establish their claim.

    Me I am not really an atheist but an eternalist ..a person who realises the universe is eternal and requires no creator and so there is no need to deny something that can not possibly exist.

    What else have you got?

    Well you have it now...I just gave you the answer to everything...the universe is eternal which means there could never have been a creator...

    What more do you need.
    If someone claims the universe is not eternal demand that show why it is not eternal...they cant case closed...no creator.

    Look I know you think the mob idea is cool but for an eternalist it makes no sence...why ask a question when we already know the answer...the universe is eternal and so there can be no creator...

    Why ask about somethingvthat cant exist.

    Well I have got an idea I told you that already.

    Look if you are fair dinkcum and genuinely interested in why folk get tied up with the superstitious nonsence we call religion then look into Sun worship and how with the application of astrology the ancients invented many human gods with similar attributes to the stars and the Sun.

    JC was one of many suggesting syrongly that he was just made up...

    I think your agnostism needs to confront some facts and when you have looked at all the history then no doubt you will become an atheist or better still an eternalist.

    I like using "got" because as a kid it was drummed into us not to use that word and out of school we did...I have a funny view on grammar in so far as I disregard it and go to great lengths to talk in the casual way all us Aussies do when talking to mates...So Imm gunna say got when I wantta.

    I spent many years re writing the Judges orders from their short notes to redraft them into the formal orders in perfect style.
    Do you think I knew my stuff or just winged it...I got ot wired.

    I drafted (as oppossed using a precedent template) a complete set of Memorandum and Articles of Association and whatever because there was no precedent for the sort of company that I was incorporating... I cant remember if I have the full title...there is somethingvelse in their description... we just called them articles of association but there is more to what they were... but a book in effect absolutely no if or buts perfect...

    I drafted the agreement for the supply of sandstone for the airport run way which was rather complex given there was no template...all my stuff...millions think it was perfect or not...me against seven company lawyers...I got it you see.

    And I never got to use got..ever.

    Stuff good grammar ..its how you communicate and make your point.

    If I talked legalise no one would understand me..it took years to perfect communication to ordinary folk and kids.

    Further when I would speak proppa no one understood what the stuff I was talking about.

    If I need to I probably can do it better than most...but I just want to be a mug and have folk listen and have my point burnt into their head.

    Anyways you must look into history outside the small slice you seem to have invested all your effort into.

    Have you looked at the Summarians...so much of the bible stories seem to come from them...very interesting and the best part is they talk direct to us thru their clay tablets...none of this handed down handed down written in Greek Latin Hebrew ammended edited etc etc....you get the real deal.


    I strongly believe if you actually studied the subject you would drop your pussy position of an each way bet.

    And admit it ..asking a mob is of little use...

    What has happened is someone needed an interesting topic for a book or university project and came up with the idea...that happens all the time and you end up with so much researched crap you can find authority for anything...heck I saw a paper on how bed bugs tend to be bigger when they exist in a small population...who cares...who knows if that is correct..who would bother doing research to prove them wrong...and you ask the mob thing ..just bevause its writyen someplace does not mean it right...if you are that convinced do follow up tesearch...me I would not waste the time...but bottom line you seem to be defending there is a god side really...well it wont get anywhere with me...present, as devils advocate, something for the other side of your agnostic position... Give me somecreasons why there may not be a god...I bet you wont..and I bet you wont look at the multiple human gods building on astrology...that is not being agnostic when you refuse to look outside your selected part of history.



    Alex
     
  15. Acitnoids Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    704
    Good for you man *thumbs up*. Almost nothing you said has any relevance to this thread. The grammar is for the linguistics sub forum.

    I could care less about grammar. I was replying to DaveC426913 problem with me saying Per Say instead of Per Se.

    Fuck repeating myself. Scroll back!

    Wow, are you in pain now or just a Dick?
     
  16. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    13,077
    I ain't got good grammar and I ain't got religion and I am reasonably happy and I ain't missed iver

    An the thread ain't got any god evidence

    Not even a scintilla (to keep the science part alive) of evidence

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  17. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    8,502
    Sorry for such a delay in replying ...you sound upset so I wish I could have been back earlier.

    How do you get almost nothing☺.

    Well of course you cant post something of relevance in this thread...that would be evidence and we both know there is none.

    The thread is a call for evidence for God ...do you really think that can ever happen...there is none ..oh I have already said that but thats all you can say...there is none..the thread could have stopped at page one.

    The thread was generously started by James R so theists could present their evidence or moreover what caused them to think there was a god.

    And look nothing...and then you get ticked off cause I try and keep the thing going and have an enjoyable chat with interesting folk such as your good self and here you go spitting the dummy...why would you let a mug like me get you so upset...I bet its just dawned on you the eternal universe provides the ultimate answerand all your agnostic posturing is for nought,

    Thats a profound observation and out of keeping with your preparedness to promote the crazy notion that the mob has a clue...really...ask the people and you will find there is a God..really?...you sound as desparate as the theist who aint got evidence and get bitter and twisted when you point out faith is not evidence and here you are under the guise of being agnostic and try and sneek in non logic and get upset because you have backed a loser.

    Your got caught with your hand in the cookie jar and we smacked it..get over it...

    Great so I can say got...fantastic..got got got.

    Something tells me you are joking ...well you must be cause I am laughing☺.


    Now come on tell me what is upsetting you and I will do my best to sort it out.

    I dont want to see you like this...I dont want to upset you even one little bit...well I dont do I because it is you who has the choice to get upset...personal responsiblity and all that...now there is something theists dont have...its always some damn sinner at fault...at least they will burn in hell...so all good.

    Why?

    No not so much now.

    I took the bandages off earlier and was able to get thru the day with no pain killers...but thanks for asking that is most kind of you.

    Dick here means a detective.

    And although certainly not that sort of detective I do like looking at the various myths of religion and work out where the crazy ideas came from...I mean anyone can look up the history and discover that many human gods ran their act carefully tieing their claims to the Sun and astrology generally...so one hardley needs to be a detective to find history which is available simply using google..try it..solar mesiahs...astrology and christianity...push your professed agnostic position headlong into the truth a investigation of the history will get for you.

    Now I could be wrong but I sence you are not happy and cant help but think it may have been something that I said.

    If I knew or thought for a moment that you were sensative about any of this perhaps I would not have engaged...but one thing I suspect from your responce is that you are not genuine in claiming an agnostic position...I think you have taken that position to slip in your already determined theistic views...prove me wrong.

    And when you settle down dont worry about an appology nothing you say can insult me and my only concern is to see you recover your composure and regain your dignity.

    You have a good day and dont let such small things upset you...we are only discussing religion..its not as if we are discussing anything of importance.


    Alex
     
  18. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,502
    My whole life was about perfection so I am happy not to have to think too carefully.

    Anyways nothing comes thru in the religious forums that requires too much thought at a casual level...I mean not thinking is what we can have in common with believers and of course our undecided unbiased agnostics..and perhaps I have been cranky and sound upsetting to theists and agnostics...but I speak truthfully.

    The history is out there...astrology superstition multiple human gods.

    No evidence of god has been posted and presenting that mob vote thing was a dead duck...there can be only one reason that anyone would consider such as reasonable.

    Anyways not to worry I certainly dont like upsetting folk...heck its all just opinion...and there is so little difference between an atheist and a believer...they dont believe in all the gods we dont believe in..we are only one ahead of them really.
    Alex
     
  19. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    13,077
    Good portion of my working life was about being neat and tidy and CLEAN

    Now I relax more. Not to slob level, but nobody would say my house is tidy

    Care to wager thread gets to 100 before shut down soon after?

    Do you think theist really really truely really understand evidence? or do you think they understand but try to slip through fake evidence?

    Cheers

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  20. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    13,077
    Yazata got the ball just over the line at Post 7

    But was only a rehash of stuff which had been roundly discredited long ago

    Thought bubble - why roundly? would squarely do?

    If you de-anthropomorphised, the general overt version of a western god, would being in church preying to the Big Bang have quite the same feeling?

    Anyway nearly Santa Claus birthday and I have no chance in Darwin of a White Christmas, but would be content with a cool wet one (not cyclonic)

    And something better than coal in my stocking. Stocks and bonds in fracking would be nice

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  21. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    8,502
    One should not generalise but it seems to me that they really really really believe their faith is evidence.

    They wont say as much because they probably dont want to argue or defend that belief.

    But I think they have this nice feeling and they interprete that as the holy spirit and that is their evidence.

    And I have had that feeling once I really thought God was talking to me..not in words but this feeling...I was all over the place for a while..but I was in the bush sleeping irregular star gazing no human contact at all maybe three weeks...but I was cabin crazy...and fortunately was able to work through it and rationalise what was really going on...a mental problem...well what do you think your average dingbat will say to themselves if they experience similar...oh my mind is losing it stay calm stay real ..... or rather I feel special and convince themselves God is talking to them..

    The mind can play horrible tricks so realise that can happen but dont tell yourself that you are now talking to God...so I expect it is actually a mild mental illness... I think mine was due to star gazing mucking up my sleep add to that isolation and probably poor diet...anyways we have not spoken since☺....maybe on the day of judgement I will be told..I tried but you would not listen so off to hell with you to burn and scream and cry and twist in agony for ever and ever and ever you sinner...but remember that I love you.

    Well on the bright side you would get to live forever and never be cold again...always see the upside☺

    The problem is believers are unable to see its a myth.

    They are scared of death so an after life appeals and they are scared of pain so no hell please.

    There are at least 15 human Gods all with the same MO...and it all comes from astrology...yet they wont look at those facts.. if they did it is clear JC is made up...not even maybe as agnostics like to imagine...clearly absolutely 100% made up.

    And then they may think just for a moment that they have been conned...thats where faith kicks in...no its satan ...some folk actually think satan is real.

    Just look at that Ken Hams big boat...took a solid work team how long to build..but Noah did it ... so gullible you want to scream...

    But what really gets me...look at the size of the universe ...these poor fools think it was all created for them...they have no idea how big it is and what a small bit of space and time humans are here for...we will go extinct at some point...extinction is the rule and evolution is the exception...we shall fade away at some point...but they want a reason...why am I here...not to bloody think thats for sure...

    But what can we do...if we could shake off religion and get organised we may have a chance but the division religion perpetuates means we will never plan to make a world that we can drive someplace else....

    Extinction is garanteed by religion.

    How can we develop the necessary brain evolution when we are held back by folk who would be backward even in the bronze age...

    Anyways fortunately some of us are not infected...

    Alex
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2018
  22. Acitnoids Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    704
    And on and on it goes. Instead of arguing against this man;

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Galton

    Whom in 1906 discovered this statistical tool;

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisdom_of_the_crowd

    You would rather intentionally try to antagonize me than debate the points at hand.

    I see you can not discuss these points and instead of bringing facts you would rather regress this forum into a common comment section of some random online article.

    I've never said this statistical model is flawless. The exact opposite in fact. Your argument is to attack the person instead of the model. If you don't understand the material or refuse to educate yourself then just keep your mouth shut.

    If your only end was to get a rise out of me then you succeeded. However, you have proven yourself to be a troll not capable of discussing this person;

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Galton

    or the statistical tool he discovered in 1906;

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisdom_of_the_crowd
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2018
  23. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,502
    • Deliberately trying to antagonise other members is a breach of our posting guidelines. Please avoid.
    I know you appreciate honesty so let me be honest.

    I would rather antagonise you given that I reject your croud vote for facts stand...in relation mainly to presenting the mob vote as any way useful to show god exists ... and as I think you are a theist in agnostic clothing.

    The fact you seem to get upset I cant understand ...I really cant but if you point out why you are so upset I am sure we can work something out.

    I am not angry or upset with you and I dont know what is upsetting you.

    As I said if your are here to present a balanced position then perhaps throw some crumbs out for the atheists...so tell me what reasons have you assembled that suggest there is no God...and please not a mob poll.

    Neither did I.

    Be specific.What article?

    Where have I attacked you?

    You attacked me yet I turned the other cheek.

    Sure good advice just dont ask me to stop typing.

    Settle down and try and be polite.

    Well it was not so it seems I suceeded doing something that was in your imagination. ..tell me what has upset you...the "got" thing...come on that was no more than a minor ribbing.

    Or perhaps it was that I gave you more than enough information to enable you to get off the fence and declare you are an atheist.

    Why are you trying to insult me..do you dislike me that much?


    But if it makes you feel good insulting someone go ahead ..its no skin off my nose although I feel sorry that you have such a problem...when you hate someone you only hurt yourself...

    Let me leave you with this ..I dont like quotes but this one somehow fits the bill here....there are lies, there are damn lies and the are statistics.


    I will read your links ...I have however some knowlegde of the proposition.

    I do hope we can move past this and I do hope you can extend your reading of history to give proper context to the small section you seem to specialise in...now there I go ending with a what do you call it prepa something...

    Would you like for me to give you some links on christianity and astrology...or maybe something setting out all the human gods with the same MO as JC which edtablishes he was made up just like all the previous human gods...heck I did not create them they are part of history...the son of god act was very common...I didnt make it up I am only telling you the facts.


    And a reminder...how about in the interest of true agnostic balance you present some support to there is no god side of things.

    And settle down you cant let yoirself get so upset...its not good for your health...and whatever you do dont take it out on love ones or your pets or friends.

    Alex
     

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