If god created mankind so they would have free will, and therefore truely worship him/her with out programming, then how did satan rebel?
I don't see the problem. Satan rebeled because of his free will (along with 1/3 of the angels), and man rebelled because of his free will. If you see a pattern developing, good, it seems that free will leads often to rebelion, because we want to choose what we want. Now that God has redeemed us, we try to voluntarily choose to do what he wants us to do, and when we meet Him at the end of the world, we will see how great and glorious He is, and be even more motivated to voluntarily serve Him. To answer your question, God created both man and angels with free will. What's your point?
Satan as the Devil is a necessity of God's universe. Good without evil means God didn't have to separate night and day, water and land, life and death. Theologians and philosophers have spent ages attempting to reconcile the station of Satan in a Christian cosmology, and thus far it cannot be done. Even the best constructions seem to indicate that Satan is a necessary result of the Universe. The real question needs to include whether or not Satan will be redeemed. That answer sheds much light on the role of the Devil. If yes, then Satan is an agent of God performing God's will, and his evil is something God wishes to be in the universe. If no, then redemption is arbitrary on the grounds that somebody had to be evil in order for God to be good. Satan must be necessary. Any suggestion otherwise includes the presuppositions that A) God is extraneous, and B) God could have done a "better" job of creating the Universe. Either answer is, generally, unacceptable to theologians. Thus, it seems to me that any Devil that exists must do so only by God's allowance at least, by God's will if we choose to be less mincing about it. The Devil is an agent of God, therefore; that is, he performs a mission or task which God deems necessary to the development of the Universe. But if the Devil's redeemed, it means this whole sin and repentence and redemption thing is extraneous, perhaps arbitrary. If the Devil isn't redeemed, it means redemption itself is arbitrary, since those directly performing God's will--as they were created--do not qualify for salvation. Can you tell I don't believe in the Devil as presented by Christian myth? I highly recommend the work of Jeffrey Burton Russell , who wrote several books on theologies of the Devil. The best development ideas I can offer would be assembled in Dr. Burton's Lucifer: The Devil in the Middle Ages ... well, I forget the exact citation info, but it's all over in old threads; I pounded certain threads senseless with it. But even the best of the believers have been unable to establish the necessity of the Devil in the Universe. At worst, he's a stooge; at best, a cunning agent in a divinely-inspired cabal. A simpler idea might simply be this: Light, by its speed, would circle the Earth 7 or so times in a second. 300,000 km/s. There is light out there that left its source before the earth was created that might not have run into anything yet. I'm after the scale of the Universe here, not necessarily the science of photon decay. But the presence of a Devil in the classic, mythic, Christian sense means that, of the vastness of the Universe and all of its unseen miracles, human beings are the most important thing in it, and the entirety of this Universe is devised merely to support the logistics of God's melodramatic plan. Two cents? Ah, it's a soapbox. thanx much, Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! (edit--I keep screwing up Dr. Russell's name Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ) ------------------ Whether God exists or does not exist, He has come to rank among the most sublime and useless truths.--Denis Diderot [This message has been edited by tiassa (edited September 29, 2000).] [This message has been edited by tiassa (edited September 29, 2000).]
Caleb- Point me to the verses in the bible that speak about Satans rebellion. I have looked, and I can only find some vague references in Revelations. I am genuinely interested.
http://www.exosci.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000241.html Mack, Try the above link, if it wont work do a search on piers. The discussion held looks at this from two opposing views. Enjoy and Allcare Tony H2o [This message has been edited by Tony H2o (edited September 29, 2000).]
Hiya, And of course, within the Christian worldview, one can always say ..."the Devil made me do it!" and shake of that pesky yoke of responsibility. And then ..."forgive me Jesus..." and unburden oneself from the spectre of guilt ... and live to sin another day. Free will is an interesting concept, but in reality, if one accepts God as omnipotent, it is really no more than an illusion. It`s all done with mirrors. Somehow I have more faith in Free Willy! Take care
First of all, there are the verses in Revelation that you mentioned, which I don't think are quite so vague, NEVERTHELESS, there are others that show Satan is in rebellion (some by implication, others more explicit): 1)First of all, God told Adam & Eve not to eat, Satan told them to eat - he is clearly rebelling against God's plan. 2)Satan was trying to get Job to go against God's will. 3)Look at Matthew 12:22ff and other places where Jesus talks about Satan. 4)He is called our adversary, and compared to a roaring lion. 5)He disputed with Michael (the archangel) for Moses' body. Now on to the explicit statements about his rebellion. Unfortunately, I don't know the exact references at tis time, but I will look for them. I think they are in Isaiah, (there might be some in Jeremiah ?). I'm flipping through my pocket Bible right now, but with no concordance and 60+ chapters, I doubt I'll find it before I get home and search my concordance. If you have a concordance you can search, one of the passages describes Satan as an "angel of light". Nope, I can't find it now. Let me get back to you. [This message has been edited by Caleb (edited September 29, 2000).]
make sure you find me those references, because I am genuinely curious. I would be shocked if you found them in the old testament, considering most Jews dont believe in Satan and Hell, at least not in the christian sense. "1)First of all, God told Adam & Eve not to eat, Satan told them to eat - he is clearly rebelling against God's plan." Genesis never says the word Satan. Or the devil. It only says serpent. "2)Satan was trying to get Job to go against God's will." Satan did this with gods blessing, and in fact had to ASK permission to hurt Job. As if he didnt have the power to go against gods will. "3)Look at Matthew 12:22ff and other places where Jesus talks about Satan." This doesnt mention the rebellion and war in heaven. "4)He is called our adversary, and compared to a roaring lion." Give me a verse number. "5)He disputed with Michael (the archangel) for Moses' body." Once again, give me a verse number.
This is slightly off the subject but I thought it worth a quick mention. An early US president (sorry I can’t remember which one) who was in office at the time the US symbol was introduced wanted a snake as the symbol. He pointed out that the bald-headed eagle has more in common with vultures than with other proud eagles, i.e. it is largely a disreputable scavenger. But the snake is in reality a noble creature, certainly stealthy and cunning but a true powerful hunter. He was outvoted on the basis that the snake/serpent is a representation of Satan. Again we can see how the ignorance and inaccurate perceptions of those who wrote the bible myths continue to adversely affect modern man. Cris
http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/genesis/genesis3.htm http://www.cybercomm.net/~dcon/OT/genesis.html I have just checked two translations of the Bible. For the record, the cybercomm version of Douay-Rheims is still being proofread. It has never been clear to me how we associate the serpent and Satan, except for the assumptions of a few myths piled atop one another. I mean, sure, tradition holds that the serpent is Satan, but if we believe Genesis, then tradition holds that a woman's place is "under thy husband's power" and that "he shall have dominion over thee" (3.16). And that bit about labor and toil in 3.17 ... tell me that hasn't been just a repeating pattern throughout our history that we haven't condemned ourselves to. Should we be proud to be part of the workaday, Sisyphan misery simply because God cursed Adam for listening to his wife? A couple of things about Job. I take the following from What the Bible Really Says, by Manfred Barthel. I like that translation of the name. It's worth noting, on a literary level, that many writers through history, as well as many modern writers, have maintained the tradition of naming characters with names that have specific meanings relevant to the story. Barthel further notes that God allows Satan these actions because Satan has made a bet with God, in effect, that Job will curse God if he is stripped of all his "substance". (248) The only thing that disturbs me about Barthel's way of putting it is that I knew this when I was 12, and I still thought Job was bogus. The only lesson there is that there's no point in complaining; life is life, what's done is done, and it ain't no use trying to change anything because you're too dumb to understand. We can take Job for certain insights, but that requires admitting that God is, essentially, a brat in the story, getting pissed off at Job simply because he--God, that is--loses a freakin' bet. Right ... I see Jesus introducing the name Satan to the conversation at hand. In the New American or Douay-Rheims, I still see a political speech. When the accusers accuse the accusers, there will be nobody left to accuse. A very cunning note on political cabals. Of 4 & 5, I'll have to actually will myself to look them up. But I did want to note that Lucifer means "bearer of light" and was a title given to Christ at one time. From Jeffrey Burton Russell: At some point I'm going to locate my copy of Gustav Davidson's Dictionary of Angels ... there's a relatively recent printing (sometime in the last decade), but if anyone's got a copy, the entry on Satan is rather impressive, and gives a pretty good idea of just how ridiculous Satan-theology is. thanx, Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! _______________ Barthel, Manfred. What the Bible Really Says. Trans. Mark Howson. Wings Books: Avenel, 1982. Russell, Jeffrey B. Lucifer: The Devil in the Middle Ages. Cornell Univ. Press: Ithaca, 1984. ------------------ Whether God exists or does not exist, He has come to rank among the most sublime and useless truths.--Denis Diderot
Caleb " Satan rebelled because of his free will (along with 1/3 of the angels), and man rebelled because of his free wil". I don’t believe in Satan, nor do I believe the Bible "is the word of God", but I am interested in it as a view of God and our place in the universe. Anyway Caleb, or anyone who cares to give their view on my question please do so because I have never been able to get anyone to address it, except for one person who said it was a stupid question. My own feeling is he nor the others could answer it. Anyway here goes my "stupid question". According to the Bible 1/3 of the angels rebelled and were kicked out of heaven, but Genesis says only Adam and Eve ate of the apple, but all humanity had to pay the price for their screw up. I realize that Adam and Eve could symbolize humanity as a whole, but it doesn’t say all humanity sinned. So why the double standard here. Only the angels who sinned paid the price, but all humanity pays the price for Adam and Eve. Sounds to me to be a little unfair to say the least. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
"1 Pet 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:" "Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee." And here it is, although, as is typical of many prophetic sections, this one has a double meaning. If you look at the context, it is talking about a King of Lebanon, but many Bible scholars also believe that this speaks of Satan, or 'Lucifer': "Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit." And the other verse, also speaking doubly of an evil king: "Ezek 28:11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Ezek 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. Ezek 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Ezek 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Ezek 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. Ezek 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Ezek 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. Ezek 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffic; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee." In both of these passages, I believe the idea is that these kings were controlled by Satan. We see a similar situation here: "Luke 22:3 Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve. Luke 22:4 And he went his way, and communed with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray him unto them. Luke 22:5 And they were glad, and covenanted to give him money. Luke 22:6 And he promised, and sought opportunity to betray him unto them in the absence of the multitude." And sorry I was wrong about the "angel of light" reference: "2 Cor 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 2 Cor 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light." This is the 'wolves in sheep's clothing' deception. Some other interesting verses: "Zec 3:1 And he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. Zec 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?" "Mat 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and showeth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; Mat 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve." "Rom 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen." It is also believed that this verse refers to Satan, since no one else would match this description: "Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye [the believers] walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:" "Luke 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: Luke 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren." (Interestingly, it is Simon Peter who later writes about the devil as a roaring lion!) "Luke 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven." That last Luke passage is interesting, in that it paralels that in Revelation. "Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." If there was ever any doubt, the Devil, Satan, the Dragon (in Revelations), and the old Serpent (from Genesis) are one and the same, according to this passage. Just in case there's any doubt: "Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years," I hope these passages will help you. ------------------------- Zappers, That's a good question. The answer, as I understand it from the scriptures, is this. The one-third of the angels who rebelled chose to rebel, the other 2/3's didn't choose to rebel. Now in humanities case, Adam and Eve chose to rebel, but they were the only people around at the time. We are all descended from these sinners. "1 Cor 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." However! we are not guilty of sin only because we are descended from a sinner. Each of us is also guilty of our own sin. In the case of the 2/3 good angels, they didn't 'descend' from the the bad angels (angels don't have descendants), nor did they personaly choose to rebel. We have done both. I'm really not sure how important it is that we are all descended from a sinner, but the fact remains that God has declared us all unrighteouss because we all do sin. 2/3 of the angels don't. Did that make any sense? [This message has been edited by Caleb (edited September 30, 2000).]
Caleb, It has often occured to me that Jesus and Satan were actually the same being, and these verses seem to support that idea. The Old Testament describes Lucifer as the "son of the morning" (Isaiah 14:12); Jesus is referred to as the "day star" in 2 Peter 1:19; Jesus promises to give his followers "the morning star" in Revelations 2:28; Jesus proclaims himself the "bright and morning star" in Revelations 22:16. Jesus supposedly came to earth from heaven, and he wants to be (and is) worshipped as God. And what has "weakened the nations" more than the battle to force Christianity on the entire world? Jesus himself said that he came not to bring peace, but a sword. What greater deception could there be? If Jesus and Lucifer are one and the same, then it would seem that he has indeed deceived even the "very elect". And what better way to deceive them than to claim to absolve them of all personal responsibility for their own acts? Hmmmm...something to think about, anyway. ------------------ An ye harm none, do what ye will.
Lets try to be realistic Emerald. Has it really often occured to you Jesus = Satan or do you just bring up that idea for the sake of bringing it? "Jesus himself said that he came not to bring peace, but a sword." Would you mind explaining what that verse means? You quote it, but do you know what it is teaching? "If god created mankind so they would have free will, and therefore truely worship him/her with out programming, then how did satan rebel?" Satan has free will as well. "Satan as the Devil is a necessity of God's universe." I have toiled with that often. I think it is speculation either way one goes. We really can't anser that. I think the best way to find the answer to that is to stick with the source of our epistemology: special revelation (the Bible). "Even the best constructions seem to indicate that Satan is a necessary result of the Universe." But what are these constructions based on and where do they end? Do they go specifically based on the available data or do the take into account the cause for our universe and what happened "before" it? "Thus, it seems to me that any Devil that exists must do so only by God's allowance at least, by God's will if we choose to be less mincing about it. The Devil is an agent of God, therefore; that is, he performs a mission or task which God deems necessary to the development of the Universe." There is a distinction between God's perfect will and God's permissiable will. "The Devil is an agent of God, therefore; that is, he performs a mission or task which God deems necessary to the development of the Universe." So your saying Judas should have been rewarded for selling out Jesus because Jesus died for the sins of the world? Definately not. God turns evil (which is that which is away from his will) into Good. Evil is in the intent not in the action. We will have new bodies. Our souls move on, not the atoms and molecules composing our present bodies that react and produce causes and effects in accordance with the laws of physics. "But even the best of the believers have been unable to establish the necessity of the Devil in the Universe" Who determined who the best was and who determined that they failed to establish the nature of Satan in God's universe? "But the presence of a Devil in the classic, mythic, Christian sense means that, of the vastness of the Universe and all of its unseen miracles, human beings are the most important thing in it, and the entirety of this Universe is devised merely to support the logistics of God's melodramatic plan." Might want to brush up on the anthropic principle. Lots of astronomical evidence for design. Hawking's question of why God made more than one star has been answered. "And of course, within the Christian worldview, one can always say ..."the Devil made me do it!" and shake of that pesky yoke of responsibility. And then ..."forgive me Jesus..." and unburden oneself from the spectre of guilt ... and live to sin another day. Free will is an interesting concept, but in reality, if one accepts God as omnipotent, it is really no more than an illusion. It`s all done with mirrors." Actually the Bible does not teach Satan is responsible for our sins. James tells us we are enticed and dragged away by our own evil desires. A few more things.... Serpant = Satan Bible = Myth is equal to a false statement. " It has never been clear to me how we associate the serpent and Satan, except for the assumptions of a few myths piled atop one another. I mean, sure, tradition holds that the serpent is Satan, but if we believe Genesis, then tradition holds that a woman's place is "under thy husband's power" and that "he shall have dominion over thee" (3.16)." We deny the Bible because we disagree with God. "We can take Job for certain insights, but that requires admitting that God is, essentially, a brat in the story, getting pissed off at Job simply because he--God, that is--loses a freakin' bet." We disagree with God's actions and call him a brat. More importantly, we assume a logical foundation for our thoughts. We cannot provide any logical reason to how we know our thought corresponde to reality but we use them none the less to cut off the branch we are sitting on. We use highly subjective, speculative, personally biased synthetic propositions, to do away with the bible. "According to the Bible 1/3 of the angels rebelled and were kicked out of heaven, but Genesis says only Adam and Eve ate of the apple, but all humanity had to pay the price for their screw up. I realize that Adam and Eve could symbolize humanity as a whole, but it doesn’t say all humanity sinned. So why the double standard here. Only the angels who sinned paid the price, but all humanity pays the price for Adam and Eve. Sounds to me to be a little unfair to say the least." Are you without sin? Am I without sin? Are any of us without sin? In adam all died, in Christ all ca be made alive if they believe in Him. Peace, Vinnie
Vinnie, Yes, Vinnie - I really do think beyond what is spoon fed to me. I'm sorry that it comes across as offensive - I really don't intend it that way. But there is no way to bring these concepts to the table for discussion without offending someone. Does the earth not have a north and south pole? Does a battery not have a positive and negative terminal? Could there be light without dark? Good without bad? Up without down? Even God himself admits this polarity within his own nature in Isaiah 45:7 when he says that he forms the light and creates darkness, he makes peace and creates evil. Earlier, he stated that there was no other God besides himself - he's all there is! So although God has many aspects, there is only One Power. I would also like to quote Isaiah 45:21,22: <font color="red">21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.</font> I think it means just what it sounds like - his intention was to cause strife and divide families, and get as many as possible to follow him and worship him as God. Isaiah 2:4 says that in the last days the people will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruninghooks, and that nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore. As I see it, this is directly opposed to Jesus's mission on this earth. Is it possible for you to look beyond your religious indoctrination to see what I see and understand my point of view without taking offense? Peace, Vinnie. Blessings, Emerald ------------------ An ye harm none, do what ye will.
"Yes, Vinnie - I really do think beyond what is spoon fed to me." As Paul wrote, "Test everything. Hold on to that which is good." "I'm sorry that it comes across as offensive - I really don't intend it that way. But there is no way to bring these concepts to the table for discussion without offending someone." Wll I didn't get offended Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Just curious if you actually believed that. God creating evil is one thing but saying Jesus = Satan isn't that Logical. You took a few verses and tried to show some corollary between them. Your idea of Jesus = Satan pretty much ignores the theme of the bible and many many many verses of scripture. So do you believe the Bible to be God's word? If not you would seem to be picking and choosing rather subjectively. "Does the earth not have a north and south pole? Does a battery not have a positive and negative terminal? Could there be light without dark? Good without bad? Up without down? Even God himself admits this polarity within his own nature in Isaiah 45:7 when he says that he forms the light and creates darkness, he makes peace and creates evil. Earlier, he stated that there was no other God besides himself - he's all there is! So although God has many aspects, there is only One Power." I agree with that except the "evil" part. You have to be careful of symantics. Looking in a dictionary, what definition of evil is that referring to? Heres a self quote from a different message board recently... ________________ "What, shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?" (Job 2:10) Verse in Niv: "Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?" In all this, Job did not sin in what he said." "Shall evil befall a city, and the Lord had not done it? (Amos 3:6)" Verse in Niv: "When disaster comes to a city, has not the LORD caused it?" "I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil; I am the Lord, that does all these things. (Isa 45:7)" Verse in Niv: "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things." Lamentations 3:38 in Niv: "Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both calamities and good things come?" _____________________ All those verses are referring to disasters and stuff. "There are two definitions of evil if you were to look in a dictionary. That fact helps explain the apparent difference between the Niv and Kjv in word choice for those verses. 1. The quality of being morally bad or wrong, wickedness. 2. Something that causes harm, misfortune, suffering, or destruction. God may be classified as the creator of "evil" by webster according to the second definition of the word but not according to the first as that which is morally bad is that which is away from God's will. "his intention was to cause strife and divide families," In Isaiah Jesus was called the prince of peace. He came to bring peace between the believer and God. But Jesus' ministry brought conflicts. Conflicts between Jesus and the Anti-Christ, between light and darkness, and between Christ's children and the devil's children. These conflicts can even occur in the same houshold. Thats what that verse is saying in not so many words. "Is it possible for you to look beyond your religious indoctrination to see what I see and understand my point of view without taking offense?" As I said earlier I did not take offense so my answer is yes. I'd like to flip the coin and ask you same question. Can you look beyond your religious indoctrination and see my (spoon fed?) point of view? Peace, Vinnie
Ilgwamh, When you look at the two definitions they are the same. To be morally bad or wrong, wickedness, you would contain the qualitys of the secound definitions, cause harm, misfortune, suffering, or destruction. I fail to see how the two can be separated from each other. ------------------ My Religion is vision!
Caleb Thanks Caleb, that was nice of you. But I am still a little put out about the angels. I think they got the better deal.......... Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Vinnie, Where in Isaiah is Jesus' name mentioned? Can you even find the name "Jesus" anywhere in the Old Testament? There was an Immanuel mentioned in Isaiah - but sorry, no Jesus. Blessings, Emerald ------------------ An ye harm none, do what ye will.
Vinnie, I'm not sure what religious indoctrination you're referring to that would keep me from seeing your point of view? Did you know that my mother is a born-again Christian, like her parents before her, and their parents before them, and on and on, ad nauseum? I come from a long line of Christian fundamentalists on my mother's side of the family, so I know exactly where they're coming from. Did I also mention to you that I attended one year of seminary classes to study the New Testament back in the early 70's? Did I mention that I've attended a number of Christian churches of various denominations as an adult in my search for the truth? Sorry, but none of them rang true for me. You see, even though I was born to a Christian mother, I've always been a Pagan at heart. I just didn't fully realize it until fairly recently. Once I began studying the various Pagan religions, I knew I had found my own true path. Have you ever had the experience of reading a book on any religious philosophy and found yourself excitedly nodding your head and saying to yourself, "Yes! I've always known that, but didn't know there was anyone else out there who knew it too!"? So no, I wasn't indoctrinated with Pagan philosophy as a child - but it was always right there inside of me waiting to be discovered. So there is nothing to keep me from seeing your point of view in that sense - I just never understood it because it wasn't logical to me and it didn't ring my inner bell of truth. Blessings, Emerald ------------------ An ye harm none, do what ye will.
