Raising Children Without the Concept of Sin

Jan Ardena said:
The only way you are not a sinner you m this scenario, is when such a thought does not even occur to you.
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So sin is thought crime, according to you. Thanks for the confirmation that this is your view.

It potentially explains a lot about why you're so deathly afraid of God's judgment.

It might also go some way to explaining why you shy away from threatening ideas. You wouldn't, for instance, want to commit the thought crime of really taking a good hard look at the theory of evolution, for instance.
 
James R said:
It sounds like you're saying that merely thinking about or being tempted to transgress against Divine Law is the sin, whether or not the thought leads to action
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Yes, in religion the very thought of lust is a sin.
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Thou shalt not covet.

I don't know how you can control your own emotional body chemistry. Empathy.
 
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James R said:
So sin is thought crime, according to you. Thanks for the confirmation that this is your view.

It potentially explains a lot about why you're so deathly afraid of God's judgment.

It might also go some way to explaining why you shy away from threatening ideas. You wouldn't, for instance, want to commit the thought crime of really taking a good hard look at the theory of evolution, for instance.
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I think discussing anything about God, or theism with you, is a pointless pursuit.
You take what I say, and summarise it in a way that only suits you.
It wouldn’t be so bad, but your post are long, and filled with this technique. Which means I spend most of the the time trudging through these posts correcting what you purposely misrepresent. I’m tired of it. So I will happily concede, and grant you victory.
Congratulations!

Jan.
 
iceaura said:
As does not committing a sin, refusing to commit a sin, etc.
It's an interesting concept, sin.
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If a man looking for a job as a registered child cater, put on his cv, that while he does not carry out the act of pedophillia, he is tempted every time he is around children, he would not be trusted by any parent who care about the safety of their children. Because he is easily capable of giving in to those tempations.
As far as I’m concerned those parents would be right. They would prefer someone who is not tempted by such a scene, to look after their children.

A sinner is not just committing the act, it is the weakness of the individual, who can be tempted.
Because it is the temptation that leads to the act, and the temptation is highly favoured by the individual, constantly having to fight against it. That is a sinner.

A crime is the action itself. So if I am tempted to rob a bank, but do not yield to that temptation, then I haven’t committed a crime.
Even If I go into a police station and claim I am virtually on He verge of robbing a bank, I cannot be arrested for the not yet committed crime.

Jan.
 
Write4U said:
Not all sins are crimes. Blasphemy is a sin, but not a crime.
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A crime is the action.
Sin is a state of being.

In the bible the sin wasn’t just the act, it was the disobedience. They consciously went against what was right. That was the sin.
The act was due to their now sinful nature.

Jan.
 
Jan Ardena said:
A crime is the action.
Sin is a state of being.
Jan.
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Sin is, more accurately, the state of being human. Buffalo can fornicate all they like and remain sinless; a wolf may covet his neighbour's wife and manservant and ox and ass, yet be innocent as the lamb he just gobbled up, even though not yet killed for that crime.
(And contrary to that yellow poster, the way I hear it is, death doesn't liberate you from sin; that's when the serious punishment starts.)

But humans can't stop being humans; can't stop operating with a human brain in a human body and therefore cannot stop sinning; whether they act upon their impulses or refrain, their sinfulness is as inherent and inescapable state of being.
That's The Big Catch 22. Jesus died for your sins, but he was divine, tempted only by religious dominanece, not base animal needs, and therefore free of sin. You can get saved if you're just like him, and no other way. IOW, no way. Keep trying, go on, twist yourself into a moral pretzel; deny yourself all pleasure; beat yourself bloody with a holy whip; go live in the desert, silent for thirty years with only juniper berries to eat... Sooner or later, somone will come along and step on your foot, and it'll be all for naught. You can never purge yourself of the state of humanity.

Do I want to tell that to a child I care about?
Nuh-ahh!
 
Jan Ardena said:
If a man looking for a job as a registered child cater, put on his cv, that while he does not carry out the act of pedophillia, he is tempted every time he is around children, he would not be trusted by any parent who care about the safety of their children. Because he is easily capable of giving in to those tempations.
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Of course.

And if you were applying for the same job, and one of the questions was "have you ever been angry at anyone?" or "have you ever desired someone else?" and you answered no, then you might not be trusted either - because they would have a pretty good assurance you are lying.
 
iceaura said:
An unavoidable state of being.
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Not necessarily.

iceaura said:
Their nature was sinful before they committed any acts.
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No. Not until they were tempted. They were innocent. The woman caved in to the temptation, and the man was weak and let the woman convince him that it was good.
Such a common theme.

iceaura said:
It is obviously possible to raise children without such a concept, as many non-Abrahamic societies do.
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It is irresponsible to teach innocent people that sin is merely a concept, because you believe it to be. Especially as most of us are in wilful ignorance .

Jan.
 
Jan Ardena said:
No. Not until they were tempted. They were innocent.
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So, all persons become guilty as soon as they are tempted. But they can remain sinless only if either they live in a world where nothing is forbidden (which, of course, God could have arranged, had he wanted his pets to stay innocent), or it is not in their nature to be tempted - if they're simply not interested. Indifference is the only foolproof protection against sin. (Doesn't sound like much of a virtue, but God could have fixed that, too.)
Had their nature - the way God made them - been inaccessible to temptation, the serpent would not have been able to persuade Eve to commit the forbidden act, (and Adam wanted some too, because he couldn't stand the thought of his wife being smarter than him. Such a common theme.)
If a man looking for a job as a registered child cater, put on his cv, that while he does not carry out the act of pedophillia,
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As long as he doesn't carry out the act, he doesn't get registered as a child cater ( - if there is such a registry, if there is such a crime.) That's where human law is more fair than divine law: we don't punish each other just for being tempted, or condemn each other for having a nature accessible to temptation.
It is irresponsible to teach innocent people that sin is merely a concept
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But there are no innocent people. Everyone, even little tiny babies, are temptable : they all, as soon as their eyes focus, desire something.
 
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Jeeves said:
But there are no innocent people. Everyone, even little tiny babies, are temptable : they all, as soon as their eyes focus, desire something
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Desire to live is an overwhelmingly powerful incentive. Insects do not possess a choice between good and evil and are innocent of sin. Most people do have the ability to deliberate on their actions and if they are sinful in the eyes of society. Many undesirable actions are even codified into law by society and deemed criminal, a socially punishable offense.

As Carlin says; "coveting keeps the economy alive". Your neighbor gets a boat,you want a boat too.
And coveting your neighbors wife is already covered under "thou shalt not commit adultery"
 
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Jeeves said:
So, all persons become guilty as soon as they are tempted.
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Guilty of what?
No one is guilty because of temptation.
You are guilty of allow temptation.
A person who does not smoke, and have no intention to smoke, is not guilty because he is around people who smoke. Such a person is not tempted, even though he has the opportunity to smoke.

The temptation is only there because the idea is already within you. It cannot affect you if you have no intention.

Jan.
 
Jan Ardena said:
A sinner is not just committing the act, it is the weakness of the individual, who can be tempted.
Because it is the temptation that leads to the act, and the temptation is highly favoured by the individual, constantly having to fight against it. That is a sinner.
Jan.
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Jan Ardena said:
No one is guilty because of temptation.
You are guilty of allow temptation.
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Make up your ... um... never mind.
 
Jan Ardena said:
Not necessarily.
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Inevitably, and unavoidably.
As the promulgators of the concept know very well.
Jan Ardena said:
It is irresponsible to teach innocent people that sin is merely a concept, because you believe it to be.
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There is nothing "mere" about the concept of sin.
Jan Ardena said:
"Their nature was sinful before they committed any acts."

No. Not until they were tempted. They were innocent.
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1)They were tempted, according to their nature, before they committed any acts.
2) There are no such innocent people.

And so forth.
 
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Write4U said:
[even little babies are temptable; they want something] Desire to live is an overwhelmingly powerful incentive.
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Not just that. Humans desire things that have nothing to do with simple survival. What I meant about the babies: as soon as they can discern shiny things, they reach for shiny things; as soon as they hear something rattle or beep or toot, they want it. They want car keys and balloons, cats, sunbeams, watches, noses, and those horrible gaudy plastic busy-box things they're supposed to poke and hammer and twist to move and make more noises. It's not about survival: they are curious - like Eve was, and Adam with a little nudging. It is human nature. Before that, it was primate nature. Before that, it was mammalian nature.
inevitable and unavoidable
and unforgivable
 
Jeeves said:
Not just that. Humans desire things that have nothing to do with simple survival. What I meant about the babies: as soon as they can discern shiny things, they reach for shiny things; as soon as they hear something rattle or beep or toot, they want it. They want car keys and balloons, cats, sunbeams, watches, noses, and those horrible gaudy plastic busy-box things they're supposed to poke and hammer and twist to move and make more noises. It's not about survival: they are curious - like Eve was, and Adam with a little nudging. It is human nature. Before that, it was primate nature. Before that, it was mammalian nature.
inevitable and unavoidable and unforgivable
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No, it's entirely natural. All higher order species explore their environment. It's a survival mechanism.

Crows love shiny objects. There are ground dwelling birds who decorate there habitat with colorful flowers and stones to attract a mate. When she enters the home, the male claims her as mate. Prostitution?

Squirrels hoard food for the wintermonths. Savings account?

IMO, there is a universal law which provides for "movement in the direction of greatest satisfaction" .

Exercised to the extreme leads to "greed", exercised to its minimum leads to "sloth".
Both extremes and all degrees in the middle of survival strategies are represented in nature..
 
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And they're all sinful, insofar as they're coveting something somebody told them not to.
Except that the ones who - by somebody's definition - don't have souls can't be held responsible for being tempted, so they just dies without going to hell.
 
Jeeves said:
So, all persons become guilty as soon as they are tempted.
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If we are tempted, and we yield to that temptation, yes.

But they can remain sinless only if either they live in a world where nothing is forbidden
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The urge to do, or have things that you know is wrong, or unwise, comes from us. It is not imposed upon us from the outside.

(which, of course, God could have arranged, had he wanted his pets to stay innocent), or it is not in their nature to be tempted - if they're simply not interested.
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We are human beings. We have that level of free will.

Indifference is the only foolproof protection against sin. (Doesn't sound like much of a virtue, but God could have fixed that, too.)
Had their nature - the way God made them - been inaccessible to temptation, the serpent would not have been able to persuade Eve to commit the forbidden act, (and Adam wanted some too, because he couldn't stand the thought of his wife being smarter than him. Such a common theme.)
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They would not have been human beings, if they didn’t have that level of free will.

As long as he doesn't carry out the act, he doesn't get registered as a child cater ( - if there is such a registry, if there is such a crime.) That's where human law is more fair than divine law: we don't punish each other just for being tempted, or condemn each other for having a nature accessible to temptation.
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My apologies, I meant child carer.

That’s not the point. His temptation is due to himself, his desire to commit the act. If his desires were known to everyone, he would face a sentence, even if it wasn’t carried out by the law. His work would suffer. I doubt people would want to hire him to look after their children, which could well be the least of his worries.

But there are no innocent people. Everyone, even little tiny babies, are temptable : they all, as soon as their eyes focus, desire something.
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When you weigh things up, that seems to be the outcome. But it’s not that we are left here to just die with no hope of becoming sinless. Our sinfulness is to die to our own desires and urges, so we have to take the initial steps in relinquishing those desires and urges.
We first have to accept that we are in this condition.
 
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