African-Americans and SAT Scores

Discussion in 'World Events' started by prozak, Jun 4, 2003.

  1. prozak Banned Banned

    Messages:
    782
    The Expanding Racial Scoring Gap Between Black and White
    SAT Test Takers
    JBHE

    "Not only are African-American scores on the SAT far below
    the scores of whites and Asian Americans, but they also
    trail the scores of every other major ethnic group in the
    United States including Puerto Ricans and Mexican Americans.
    In fact, American-Indian and Alaskan native students on
    average score more than 100 points higher than black
    students. Whites from families with incomes below $10,000
    had a mean SAT test score that was 46 points higher than
    blacks whose families had incomes of between $80,000 and
    $100,000. "

    http://www.jbhe.com/latest/37_b&w_sat.html

    [ Different races, different rules. Evolution IS real. ]
     
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  3. jps Valued Senior Member

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    If this were biological why would it be expanding?
    Wouldn't it either remain constant or shrink to a steady level as conditons improve for African-Americans in general?
    Evolution doesn't occur in a few years.
     
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  5. prozak Banned Banned

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    These are variations on an already established condition. As more blacks take the SAT than in the past, it is perhaps true that the average will naturally decrease because where previously the top echelon of blacks attempted it, now a broader group is. Can't tell you there - but what I can tell you is that this tendency is common among the different races regarding tasks for which in their past there was no evolutionary premium.

    It is important to recognize the differences between groups and to treat each appropriately.
     
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  7. Salty Registered Senior Member

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    I disagree you should treat people the same. If you accomidate people saying you only have to reach X score instead of the higher Y score then they will more likely strive just for the X.
     
  8. jps Valued Senior Member

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    1,872
    SATs are not a valid measure of anything. There are all kinds of reasons why certain groups might generally score differently on them, form cultural bias in the tests themselves to lack of motivation among the taker.

    Its pretty well accepted now that race is a social construct. There are greater genetic differences within racial groups than between them.

    Even if this were not the case, it would not be right to judge people on the basis of race, but rather what they say and do.
     
  9. prozak Banned Banned

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    782
    "Well-accepted" theories - of which the purely social nature of race - are debunked all the time.

    Let's hear it for moving on from illusory theory to practical reality.

    An SAT test alone proves very little except as a generalized, accurate in broad measurements type test of ability to perform high school learning tasks. But together several behaviors point to an origin.
     
  10. jps Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,872
    Its not even a good measurement of that. I'm sure there's some correlation between ability to perform such tasks and SAT scores, but its not enough to make any judgements based on them.

    Can you give an example of of one such theory being debunked?
     
  11. Salty Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    667
    Its funny though because the whole reason for the SATs was to make an equal playing feild.

    Yeah they are pretty bias but you can never make a really unbias test.
     
  12. prozak Banned Banned

    Messages:
    782
    Sure - Galileo asserting the sun was the center of the universe.

    Can you give a concrete example of how the SAT is not a good generalized predictor of the ability to complete high school learning tasks? Preferrably a study.
     
  13. You Killed Jesus 14/88 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    401
    One point that could be argued is that years of blacks being poor has led them all into a big cycle where crappy schooling and other stuff has trapped them in a spot where they cannot acheive high test marks.

    Or they could be just naturally dumb.
     
  14. jps Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,872
    The sun being the center of the universe has nothing to do with biological determinism. Of course well accepted theories are debunked, but can you give an example of the well accepted theory "of which the purely social nature of race" is being debunked?

    Most educators will tell you that standardized tests are essentially useless. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/1684247.stm
     
  15. Jihad_AlifLamLamHah Registered Senior Member

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    397
    prozak
    Are you seriously implying a difference in intelligence between groups you identify racially as caused by evolution ? And how would that have happened ?

    So please be clear on your statement and dont wind any bull around it . What are your conclusions ? Blacks as a race are less what , intelligent ?

    JPS
    SATs are not a valid measure of anything

    I didnt even want to get into that part ....

    Its pretty well accepted now that race is a social construct. There are greater genetic differences within racial groups than between them.

    Sure there are differences , but not when it comes to those aspects that reates what appears as race , is it not ?

    Even if this were not the case, it would not be right to judge people on the basis of race, but rather what they say and do.

    One should judge by whatevers relevant , in this point i seriously dont see racial relevance as prozak tries to put it (if I understand correctly) .

    One point that could be argued is that years of blacks being poor has led them all into a big cycle where crappy schooling and other stuff has trapped them in a spot where they cannot acheive high test marks.

    Obviously social reasons is what caused such , and ofcourse there is the thing that school-results dont determine intelligence so its quite irellevant (and as JPS said SAT really doesnt deremine anything)
     
  16. Flores Registered Senior Member

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    2,245
    SAT and GRE and these stupid white man made exams are useless. I scored horrible on both these exams and ended up with hightest GPA in best college in civil engineering....

    Those tests need major reform and need to really start testing people ability, instead of white people nerdy geeky tell me the opposite of (some word I have never heard of in my life). Ihope black people never reform to such backward teaching methods. They are our only hope of making progress and being innovative.
     
  17. Don Hakman Registered Senior Member

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    619
    Socialogicly the American black family has been under assault and ghettoized much longer and more stringently than other ethnic groups in the USA.
    Family structure plays a critical role in any educational development.

    Also when you consider that 70 % of American black men 12-35 are either in jail or have been given some kind of record in the judicial system it is not surprising that SAT scores suffer as well.
     
  18. Vortexx Skull & Bones Spokesman Registered Senior Member

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    2,242
    Familly structure, you mean : "your daddy is not your daddy, but your daddy don't know..."???
     
  19. Flores Registered Senior Member

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    Goofy,
    Why don't you just change the name of this thread to
    "Come on and bash your favorite negro"...

    Everyone here who made a subtle negative statement about African Americans is a looser with deep phsycological problems.
     
  20. jps Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,872
    Re: Re: African-Americans and SAT Scores

    I don't think these tests can be reformed. The fact is, people are not standardized enough for standardized tests to be useful in testing them.
    I'd highly recommend Steven Jay Gould's "The Mismeasure of Man" to anyone who feels that race(or standardized test scores) have any bearing at all on intelligence, aggression, or whathaveyou.

    The people who created these tests did not formulate them in any scientific way, they basically just sat down and made up a bunch of questions that they thought people should know the answers to, and declared that those who got answers other than theirs were wrong.
     
  21. Jihad_AlifLamLamHah Registered Senior Member

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    397
    ever heard of Ante Diop , who theorized the horrible circumstances in which (big-ups to Q) the white man evolved over the years has affected his character/insticts that deals with agression ? That shows a racial relevance in aggression (up to some point) , yet it respects the understanding race isnt influential in deceiding but was a side-effect that did lead to a new and more aggressive path .

    As far as I know I do think there is a point to be found in that however social reasons are far more influential no doubt , I dont think there is enough relevance and ofcourse its highly generalized not excluding the individual and his other personal factors .
     
  22. jps Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,872
    Effected it biologically or culturally? Saying that white people are inherently aggressive because most white cultures are very violent has the same problems that saying it about blacks does.
     
  23. Jihad_AlifLamLamHah Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    397
    Biologically , the theory deals with the horrible (cold etc)circumstances there were in the surroundings the white man evolved , that have effected his entire being into a more aggressive one than before .

    Its not about the white man called inheretly aggressive because of his culture , it explaines a reason for the development that lead to these more violent cultures .

    Like lets say you are a vegetarian (i dont know if this was the case I think not I just use it as example) , and allofasudden u cnat grow your food and have to resort to eating other creatures , this means u have to kill them , while before you didnt . Obviously as you kill and kill and kill , over the years you develop into a state where killing is more easy then before , perhaps we can bring in aggression to this as well but you get my point , I hope .

    Also there is quite a difference in how long things have been going on when you mention black cultures (I assume you point to minorities in USA ?) and white ones , obviously there is a difference between couple of years and couple of thousand .
     

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