Co-Determinism and the Reality of Free Will

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by Quantum Quack, Apr 7, 2019.

  1. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    Fess's first post DOES NOT mention Supernatural...
    here it is:

    How can any one take your posts seriously when you post nonsense and lie as you are repeatedly doing?

    The first mention in that thread of the word supernatural was yours.

    tell us all again how Fess's post includes something it didn't....
    It doesn't even allude to it... or even imply it ....

    What is wrong with you Ice?

    It is so blatant we are blinded by it.

    You know of course that lying about other members posts can get you banned.. don't you?
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2019
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  3. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    obviously not...
     
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  5. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    That's true, but we must not overlook that bio-organisms have a much greater range of sensory experiences and reflexive actions than non-biological organisms and what may appear a range of freedom is in fact a range of causal experiences which elicit specific expression and are still deterministic in nature, albeit at a very subtle level.

    But speaking of androids being different from humans. Have you ever considered that human biology falls for a great part outside of human control. About 90 % of cellular activity in humans is by brainless bacteria and completely outside of our control and independent of our conscious will. But without it humans would die in a few hours from attack by foreign pathogens. We don't even have conscious control over our most basic bodily functions.
     
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  7. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    Yes it is indeed impressive how we humans can get on with our self determination with out having to bother too much about automatic, psycho-somatic-ally impacted upon bodily functions..
    Have you ever heard of psycho-neuro-immunology?
    If anything it proves that self development can indeed impact on our automatic functions subconsciously and consciously...
     
  8. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    It is also impressive how we can deliberately lie too.
    Actually lying is a major aspect of self determination....
    (Thanks for the reminder Ice)
    Did i ever tell ya bout the time i wrestled a croc?
    I was determined to pluck his eyes out, but his teeth got in the way....
     
  9. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Colors in nature are communication tools.
    They are so old and familiar to all living things that several colors are associated with safety.
    Red is a universal warning signal and our response is hard-wired.
    https://www.sciencefocus.com/the-human-body/why-are-warning-signs-red/

    When we are exposed to red we experience a deterministic motor response. Fight or flight.
    No, and this fact establishes necessity, a deterministic demand.
    Why are you attempting to learn to drive in the first place? Drive to job. Necessity.
    Secondly, how and why do you obtain your driver license? A license qualifies to drive on public streets. Sufficiency.
    Thirdly, do you have any free choice in making these decisions? No, these "choices" are all from necessity and there is no freedom to choose otherwise. You can't even use a Florida driver's license in Idaho. It's a purely deterministic process. It always is.
     
  10. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    need to prove that to be true... credible link please.
    My fav. color is red and had nothing to do with danger...
    citing three scientists guessing is not evidence.
    And perhaps you may be correct about the possibility of hard wiring, however with learning we can reverse or alter this response easily. The Chinese (in Singapore) for example consider red to be lucky... It is even on their flag, their dragons are red also... etc...

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    or maybe a rose:

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    or stop if that is what we learn... yep.. you missed that one....
    No I am learning to drive the car so I can drive it....any where I self determine myself to go.
    Uhmm... so that I can drive the car I learned to drive in a way that doesn't upset society because I can prove that I learned to drive the car as a holder of a license.....
    I also learned that to be successful in life one has to learn how to compromise ones rebellious nature....

    Yep I could always borrow the neighbors horse knowing that I could go to jail when I get caught....
    Or I may decide to stay in bed instead.....or do Forrest Gump and run East to West... or was it West to East....on foot...
    Have you ever driven a car with out a license?
    I have ... and I even drove a motor bike for 3 years with out one....
    You see you have a choice to either obey the law or disobey it... simple...


    It is sad that you are so conditioned that you do not feel you have a choice...

    If you are happy being a sheeple don't let me persuade you other wise. But I am happy being free to do as I like...
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2019
  11. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    Any how what you are talking about is instinctive behavior...yes?
    From the day we were born we learn to manage our decisions impacted by our instincts.
    In fact it is one of the greatest abilities that we have. With out which there would be no civilization of humans for that matter, as we would have killed ourselves off ages ago in the game called survival of the fittest.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2019
  12. Baldeee Valued Senior Member

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    Yet I don't agree with what you have subsequently stated.

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    But that's what discussion is for.

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    Agreed.
    (Ok, I agree with that much...

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    )
    Well, if you agree that the decisions are predetermined, and thus there is no freedom, then any appearance of such freedom must be purely an illusion of that freedom.
    That part of the argument is not difficult.
    Surely it becomes less apparent?
    The only difference you could draw between the two is that one is non-organic while the other is organic.
    If all outward appearance of choice, decision-making, freedom etc are identical between the two, on what basis would you conclude that one is operating - from a process point of view - differently to the other?
    The more complex the android, the more accurately it acts like humans do (assuming that is the purpose of the increased complexity).
    Okay, there's the additional question of which is conscious and which is not (on the basis that "self-determination" requires one to be conscious), but at that level of complexity who is to say that the android is simply a p-zombie and not actually conscious?
    If you think the question simple, ask yourself how you know (rather than just assume) that anyone else you meet is actually conscious, rather than just having all the outward appearance of it and no actual consciousness?
     
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  13. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Dragons are not domestic household pets. Dragons are powerful mythical forces and served good as well as bad. Red Dragon is a famous horror tale.

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    The Red Dragon now flies proudly over public and private buildings throughout Wales, and thousands still cross the border into England every other year, when the two nations meet for their ‘historic struggle’ on the rugby battlefield known as Twickenham. Welshmen, women and children carrying the dragon as a symbol of pride in their history and culture.
    Of course there are exceptions, especially now that humans have bred thousands of hybrid flowers. When you see a rose how do you pluck it? Very carefully, no?
    Roses have thorns! Red is the most visible color and as such is a preferred color for "danger" in the arena of "natural selection".
    Yes, when you see red you stop or proceed with caution. Red means danger. Fight or Flight, is that a free will decision?
    Or when you see this sign;

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    Why are warning signs red?
    Warning: observing a red traffic sign is the first sign of danger.
    https://www.sciencefocus.com/the-human-body/why-are-warning-signs-red/

    Red traffic signs are there to warn you of an potentially existing dangerous traffic condition.
    There is no "anywhere" you can self-determine to drive to. You can take a drive "somewhere" in the country but that is a motivated and deterministic action. The decision to drive itself is a motivated action and motivated actions are deterministic, they are based on a prior causal state.
    It's inescapable, the function of Cause -->Effect is a true universal function.

    IMO, you assume that human decision making has a certain freedom, but that is a false illusion.
    Motivated decision making is always based on a conscious or unconscious perceived necessity.
    Correct, all motivated decisions based on prior environmental causal conditions and your response to deal with them.
    Whatever you decide will be based on a prior condition.
    Why would you disobey the law? You must have had a good reason why you broke the law? Even breaking the law on a whim is a causal deterministic motive which results in a specific deterministic effect. Get caught and you'll find out how free your choice was in the real world.
    Hehe, it is sad to see you believe that you are in charge, when you really aren't. That does not make you a sheeple.

    Relativity does not offer choices.

    You're looking at this from an incorrect perspective. All decisions, good or bad are a result of a prior existing (or even anticipated) condition which requires resolution. There are no "uncaused" effects. But you may not necessarily be aware of any causality at all. Our observation and active powers are very limited in relation to natural physics.

    Driving itself is a deterministic activity. Even if you want to break the speed limit, you are restricted by the speedlimit of the car itself. You cannot go 200 mph in a VW.

    We don't even know that we are hurtling trough space at 67,000 mph and you wish to exercise "free will" going anywhere you desire?

    Your problem is that you see determinism as an irresistible force that compels you to act against your will and that you reserve the right to exercise your strong will to fight and counteract the deterministic imperatives. But that is not how it works. We're not even halh aware of our own physical existence. Anil Seth posits that at best our brains try to make "best guesses", and that in actual fact we hallucinate our reality in a controlled manner.

    When our best guesses are wrong we are declared insane.

    I already mentioned that our biome consists of more bacteria than human cells and we don't have any control over the bacteria, unless they act up from a bacterial deterministic cause, which would present a human deterministic cause to which we must respond to stay alive.

    It is a much more subtle condition than anything we believe we are free to want and do.
    ALL choices (actions) are caused by prior existing conditions, even the ones you think you make freely.
    There is always a motive, even if you want to drop a coin, heads or tails. When there is a causal condition which requires resolution there is motive. When there is motive (cause) there is a deterministic effect.

    If you have a new hypothesis that deterministic ..Cause -->Effect .. is no longer settled science, let's hear it. I think it is one of the oldest tenets in science.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2019
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  14. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    The question is:
    Predetermined by who or what?

    • if it is universe then freedom is an illusion.
    • if it is "self" then freedom is genuine.

    and that is the issue regarding self determination.

    The human life long challenge, if not purpose, is to learn how to predetermine thus determine for himself.
    It is proposed by this thread that the human has been predetermined by the universe to learn how to predetermine for him self.
    There is ample evidence to support that proposal.

    We have two pre-determiners, the universe and self, then co-determinism naturally follows.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2019
  15. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    so what is the point of learning anything?
    Why science to begin with?
    Why did you go to primary school to learn how to post the sort of stuff you post?
    Why do I need to learn that freedom is an illusion when the very lesson involved is a deception?

    In logic, claiming cause and effect generates an illusion, also means that the notion of cause and effect is an illusion.
    Why?
    The very use of logic (choose between good logic - bad logic) requires volition, but volition is being claimed as an illusion. The logic of Cause and effect is itself an illusion. see?

    The scientific truth(s) you presume to be true are in fact an illusion according to your reasoning.

    Unless you can explain why science is not an illusion under your reasoning....

    I have little confidence that you can comprehend the above, but at least I can say I voluntarily tried.

    so,
    If self determination is an illusion then the science that claims it to be an illusion is even more so.

    The circular logic you are using is inescapable....you are claiming cause and effect is an illusion.



    a version of liars paradox...

    ...and one illusion said to the other illusion,
    "You are an illusion".....

    or another

    Claim: "Your freedom is an illusion"
    Response: "What made you say that?"
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2019
  16. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    Claim:
    The scientific truths used as a premise to support determinism are an illusion... as a consequence of that very determinism.
     
  17. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    yet you are claiming that the universe decides what data to accept and what data to reject, what data is true and what data is false... there is no truth according to determinism. truth is an illusion.

    You are trying to use the"Matrix" to escape the "Matrix"...
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2019
  18. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Red is a sign of ripeness and edibility in fruit, superior fitness in many birds, etc.
    People often fail to stop for red lights.

    A deeply wrongheaded line of argument, that.

    Now you are trying to draw some kind of equivalence between freedom and randomness, talking about freedom of data, etc. And "illusionary" is not the word you want.
    Your line of argument is causing you to post nonsense.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2019
  19. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Why does it need to be complicated? The entire function rests on logic.
    Logic demands that the addition of two or more positive values result in a determination of a subsequent greater single value than eoither of the single values.
    That's not illusionary. That's a natural law and has been "proven" to be true.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_(ethics)#Absolute_or_relative

    Thus the philosophy identifies the individual's initial mental state (values and/or vices) by which additional information is processed and on which decisions are eventually based.
    The functional causal basis for the emerging decision.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2019
  20. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    1) Not the "philosophy", here - the observation.
    2)Part of it. There is also the color of the light, in the simple example you are welcome to use.
    3) That was stipulated to long, long ago. Everybody here has been posting in complete agreement with that, all along.
     
  21. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    High visibility can also be a distinct advantage in natural selection of sweet fruits. Red is also the color of passion. The wave-length of the color red has carved itself a very dynamic information transmission role, at many levels.
    Illusionary is precisely the word. The only way data is not logical is when it is randomly distributed. Else there is a pattern with a defined value. Randomly distributed data in the brain is referred to as an "uncontrolled" hallucination.
    Not just yet. I'd like to hear from others where my logic fails.


    Controlled hallucination;
    https://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?storyId=654730916

    Can you give me a better overview?
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2019
  22. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    As I posted in the other thread determinism is a "cake and eat it too" theory.
     
  23. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    proven true by who?
    If it is determined by the universe then the decision to believe the logic is an illusion...
    there fore any decision reached is an illusion thus determinism is self contradictory....and circular...

    Like I posted I had little confidence that you would comprehend what I am posting. A few years learning sound reasoning may help.

    Ask the straight forward question:
    Who is deciding whether Cause and effect is true or false?

    and then follow you own arguments against self determination to their natural conclusion and you end up with the word "illusion".
     

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