Brexit: Parliament Suspended

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Tiassa, Aug 29, 2019.

  1. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    7,447
    probably fueled by tin foil hat wearing anti environmentalist regulation business people.
     
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  3. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    lol
    problem is they are paying themselves 5 or 6 times the average wage from the working class poors health, education & retirement savings to pretend to do something(while they knowingly allow it to de-rail).

    its such a mockery of democracy

    reminder, im pro BREXIT , but not an abandon ship throw the poor off to break our fall ... type of attitude of the politicians and corporate.
    im pro re-negotiation to solidify the larger changing global reality of climate refuges, arctic melting, oil prices and food national security like fishing stocks and protecting borders from invasive foreign people and groups while delivering a better profit to the starving public purse that is being bleed dry by elitist special interest turn-coat bureaucrats playing Cult-of-personality-politics-of-the-Ego with factions and glorifying extremist ideological political fundamentalism.

    who is going to pay for all the E waste ?
    the working class poor out of their health, education & retirement savings ?
     
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  5. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    I admit, beyond simply leaving it to the British, I am of two minds: One says, okay, this is the British proving what we've always known, that they're a bunch of antisocial fucks who think if they say something with a half-assed pretense of politeness, then nothing they say is impolite. The other says, who cares, they're the Brits, leave them to their own self-infliction.

    The problem with the latter is enforcing it.

    I just don't have it in me to force that many people to starve; I'm not British.
     
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  7. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    Boris & Donald could be having celebrity high tea open negotiations of trade to set some boundary pegs
    however it think big business have told them to mind their own business

    you must be a business
     
  8. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    7,447
    BREXIT
    a little bit of nothing for everyone
    coming to a country near you






    Rebels against industrialization of the human psyche
     
  9. Bells Staff Member

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    24,270
    The UK had a better chance of negotiating with the world, essentially, while being part of the EU in regards to the incoming tide of climate refugees (sorry for the bad pun), arctic melting, oil prices and food national security. Food supply was essentially guaranteed when part of the EU, so were things like medicines, etc. Don't forget, being part of the EU also allowed small farm holdings to flourish in the UK, selling food to a wide and broader market in the UK and the EU, because those hobby farms, not to mention boutique industries, were financially supported by the EU. That funding goes once you BREXIT.

    Not to mention to ensure food security once you BREXIT, the UK may end up importing cheaper food from non-EU countries, thereby essentially destroying the local industry.

    So I don't understand why you are pro BREXIT, but for all the things that would benefit you if you remained in the EU.
     
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  10. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    low(to no) government taxation on export sales(import sales for the EU)
    with that in mind, what has happened to the over all tax intake from consumer tax ?
    has it gone up down or stayed the same ?

    i imagine the Scottish and the Irish are going to be unreasonably punished
    due to their isolation from easy low cost distribution.
    that is why i am pro backstop so it doesn't cripple the Irish economy and lay waste the Scottish cottage industry.

    chinese imports on durable food
    spices
    herbs
    canned products

    i thought it was disturbing to see the comment about bleached American chicken
    the irony of stepping in to bat for an export market of non locally standardized food and safety standards to be a bit un helpful
    i think the usa needs to stop bleaching chickens
    the bleaching process is a crutch supporting unhealthy dangerous food regulations and processing simply to make cheaper quality products at a less nutritious rate.
    its a race to the bottom in food quality
    more soo with global bacteria issues and viruses

    imagine the chaos if some variant semi resistant strain of eccoli gets in from mass chinese budget chicken farming
    the big problem is it undermines the british market and industry while endangering all food supply by having such a large amount of supply in a single risk bracket.

    african swine flu is clearly showing the real risk to pandemic food issues directly damaging food security & consequential economic security.

    im not pro a hard brexit
    and im not pro abandoning Europe
    however the reality is globalization is undermining the economy and ability of nationalized food security by becoming something that is too big to fail
    a comprehensive re-negotiation of import & export processes to allow the government to apply tariffs that can pay for the business that is required to secure the national economy.
    that seems to be thrown out with the baby and the bath water and the spare baby.

    surely as an example as fish becomes in more demand the UK government should be able to increase tariffs to balance the budget for long term security to off set the commercial loss of long term food security.
    it seems like there is no safety net for what is going to be the global #1 source of vital omega's for brain growth for children in the coming decades
    omega 3s for brain development of children is critical
    red meat is to carbon heavy and the price will rise
    chicken ... then poor quality low nutrient quality chicken on sketchy processing will be the only affordable protein for children's brain growth.
    and they are then well and truly _ucked
    because of the eccoli risk from the usa as they allow chicken farming and processing to allow high eccoli rates needing the bleaching

    but all people want to know about is the latest cell phone

    in my opinion it is critical for the UK france and northern European countrys to secure fishing grounds to secure long term brain development security for their children
    if corporattions are allowed to act in the global market freely to simply fish it all out and sell it off shore...
    to who ?
    the chinese who have massive spare land for grazing cattle ..
    all at bottom rate prices to compete with an uninterested chinese market... in exchange for what ?
    cellphones ?

    addictions
    junkys
    etc etc ...

    if a hard brexit is the only option to secure the future food security for childrens critical brain development
    hard brexit till it hurts i say
    make people suffer if they want to spend all their money sending it off shore for the latest cell phone at unsustainable prices and a massive un documented cost of E=Waste
    Tax the shit out of them

    which the poor working class will be forced to pay for at the cost of health care and education and food...
    vicious cycle of the junky

    and Ireland and Scotland should secure fishing grounds and territorial waters to protect their fish

    imagine future generations too poor to afford protein for their children so they grow up less capable than todays children(life long brain damage lack of development)
    then what ?

    note for those skim reading...

    i am not an anti royalist
    i am not an anarchist
    i am pro mixed market democracy MMP

    pro managed capital gains tax and pro balancing income tax to better serve the cost of universal health care and government benefit systems like unemployment health care for children etc etc
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2019
  11. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    Have you considered that Europe may seek to abandon the UK instead... regardless of whether it be negotiated or hard...
    It seems to me that you guys are thinking only one sided and not considering that perhaps the EU may want a hard Brexit that the UK has to take responsibility for.
    Hey don't blame us ... you wanted this.... sort of BS.
     
  12. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,447
    how do you solve a problem like maria ? ...


    which countrys voted in right political parties ?
    for how long ?
    what does that say about the peoples choices for economics ?
    They voted against government industry
    they voted against social welfare systems
    they voted against regulation
    they voted for no regulation and no tariffs
    they then went and bought as much as they could off shore to avoid sales tax.
    now they have voted for brexit

    the paradigm of what if they don't care doesn't really make any difference
    the law is clear Hard Brexit is what is being performed
    if they dont want a hard brexit they have to throw out the leaders who have failed to do what they wanted.
    but they wont
    because they dont want to pay more for their cell phones
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2019
  13. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    12,453
    Yes indeed, this bothers me a lot. The rest of the EU could be forgiven for thinking that they will do better with the UK out, bearing in mind the convulsions of the last three years. The only way they can get us out is by refusing the extension that Bozo is now mandated by law to ask for if he can't get a deal first. They could easily do that, but informed opinion is that they won't. They do not want to be seen to push the UK out.

    I think actually that many of the leaders in Continental Europe can probably see that this trying to leave is a spasm, due chiefly to the older people in the UK who have never come to terms with being part of a larger geopolitical grouping, the influx of other Europeans to work here and so on. As they die, the younger voters who replace them are far more positive about staying in the EU.

    But it is touch and go at the moment. I do not think Bozo will get a deal by Hallowe'en and even if he does I am fairly sure the House of Commons will vote against it, if only to humiliate Bozo. The way to break the impasse is almost certainly a general election and a new government with a fresh mandate. But everything is rather unpredictable so I could be wrong.
     
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  14. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    7,447
    as equally as killer asteroids striking large metropolitan citys ?
    you cant change it... AND it is what the people voted for
    you cant blame EU for giving them what they are shouting for.


    "OH~My" Thats a hard BREXIT

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    Last edited: Sep 14, 2019
  15. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    ... so he can be sent-up old-bailey if he doesn't do it ?

    caviar cages & champagne shackles
    ...

    i specially enjoy the undertones of how Jeremy is to blame for being elected leader of the opposition that everyone chose to vote against.

    it is as if the writers of Yes Minister wrote the story.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2019
  16. Bells Staff Member

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    24,270
    You mean the VAT?

    It's gone up by about 5% to be 20% on goods that are taxed since the mid 70's.

    But you should also keep in mind that a very large portion of goods - such as most foods for example, are either not exempt or taxed at a zero %.

    Now consider that the UK is forced to import foods from the EU for many months of the year - such as tomatoes, oranges and various other foods, because of the UK's climate. The EU is about supporting the local economy of the EU, by way of cheaper foods and goods and services for EU member countries. The UK does not wish to belong to that anymore.

    So at the end of the day, the people in the UK will end up paying even more for food than they are now. The foods that are not currently taxed, may end up being taxed, which means more cost to the consumer and public.

    Do you think that's a better option?

    Because the UK seems to expect that they continue with the same benefits of being a member State, without being a member State. That seems to have been the promise of the leave side, but the reality is that the EU will treat the UK as a non-member state and those goods that were not taxed previously, now will be taxed.

    Certainly, it may prove a boon in the summer months for growers in the UK (I say may, because those UK growers export to the EU quite a bit). But the UK will have to support the shortfall by importing and the UK will seek to import from cheaper sources and countries, thereby there will be a bit of a flood on the market with cheaper imports, thereby nuking the local industry and farmers within a fairly short space of time.

    Only if you ignore everywhere else.

    Like the Treasury, they find that London and the South East stand to lose least from Brexit, while the North West loses more than 12%, and there are large losses also in Yorkshire and the Humber, the West Midlands and East Midlands and the South West. Notably, between 2000 and 2010 local dependence on EU demand was growing in almost all regions except London, where it was falling: London increasingly competes globally (helped by EU human capital) rather than on a European stage. This study also finds a clear positive correlation between the proportion of Leave voters in an area and the extent to which local employment is dependent on the EU, and the authors suggest that we can expect to see a deepening of regional inequality after Brexit; areas already being left behind will be those most affected by the decision to leave.

    You are worrying about the Irish and Scottish industry, when areas outside of London, and most of the UK would suffer. Some more than Scotland and Ireland.

    You are more protected from such practices by being in the EU than out of the EU because the UK may be forced to purchase such goods from these countries for less.

    Here is a great interactive .. Scroll down.. And you can see just how reliant the UK is on the EU for food and food security (not to mention economically)..

    As for the bleached chicken.. Remember that the EU refuses to import chicken from the US because of the chlorinated washes they do to their poultry. The UK, if trying to do deals, may end up importing such chicken from the US.

    Which is why I do not understand why you are pro-BREXIT..

    As has been shown repeatedly, your food security is better by being a member state of the EU than going solo.

    Your farmers are going to struggle with BREXIT, soft or hard. Because the EU will treat you as an importer, instead of as a member state. And rightly so.

    They are under no obligation to make life easier in the UK once you leave.

    The EU will be securing its fish stocks. The UK will now have reduced access to fishing grounds because of BREXIT.

    But you won't have that security any more. You import most of the fish you eat from the EU. UK deep sea fishing trawlers will lose access to their current fishing grounds off EU member nations.

    Many years ago, the Australian government had this payment for each child born, was like $3000, to help with the cost of having a child, and also to encourage people to have children as well, because of the fear of a greater aging population in comparison to the younger population going forward.

    The right complained because they thought that money would be spent buying big screen tv's, and gave ridiculous examples of a minute few out of tens of thousands and applied it to the whole.

    This whole cellphone argument you have made in your post and which I have tried to avoid until now, reeks of that.

    Well, that is upon you.

    Remember, you are pro BREXIT. That future is now fast approaching because of BREXIT.

    You can always turn to the more sustainable insects for protein..
     
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  17. Bells Staff Member

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    24,270
    The EU may see it as a boon, defensively at any rate. Because the greater sway of the UK would be removed in regards to things like defense. Especially in the era of Trump.

    At the end of the day, the EU is under no obligation to help a country that voted to leave and they are certainly under no obligation to help the likes of Boris, who actively campaigned to leave the EU.

    I doubt anyone would blame the EU for giving the UK what it asked for.
     
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  18. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    12,453
    I'm not sure I follow this. The UK and France are the two countries that give the EU most of its military capacity. That has traditionally been quoted as one of things the UK brings to the party. But you have a point that the close relationship the UK used to have with the US was also considered an asset and that is now being called into question.

    The EU has been remarkably cool, consistent and composed throughout this process, under the guidance of Barnier, who is a Rolls-Royce negotiator, I must say. They have not let the personalities - or in Bozo's case outright rudeness - affect things at all. They do not want the UK to fail because instability on their doorstep would not be good for them. But equally, they have laboriously agreed treaties and structures to uphold. They is no way they can give Bozo what he is asking for because there has to be hard boarder around the perimeter of the Single Market. Without that, the whole concept collapses. So there has to be hard border, in Ireland or in the Irish Sea, if the UK leaves the customs union and single market.

    The Brexiter fools in England either forgot about Ireland or dismissed it as a detail. What they are now learning is the power that small countries can have, as part of the EU. That is rather the point of it!
     
  19. Bells Staff Member

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    24,270
    The UK has essentially demonstrated that it can no longer be relied upon in regards to its military capacity when it comes to the EU - primarily because of its closer ties to a very unstable Trump - who has openly voiced his disdain for NATO and the EU in general.

    In the past, the UK was kind of the go between. But with Boris now in charge of the UK, the EU are correct to seek to protect their own interests now that the UK is leaving - since the UK has traditionally refused to allow such a move to begin with.

    The EU has been too patient, to be honest.

    Now with Boris at the helm, that patience may be tested.

    But the EU has provided the UK with an out of this lunacy. And I suspect that those who voted to leave because they bought into the outright lies and misinformation from the leave campaign, would probably change their vote if given the chance.

    The UK will stand to lose a lot more than the EU will from Brexit, hard or soft to be honest. The UK has benefited greatly, from scientific research, industry, farming, agriculture, cottage industry that export to the EU, ease of travel, employment, education, etc.. All that will go with Brexit.

    And that's not all. The UK will also lose access to the Galileo satellite navigation system, with May declaring that the UK would develop its own system because the EU are under no obligation to allow the UK free access to it.

    Expected to reachfull operational capacity in the 2020s, Galileo is the EU‘s answer to navigation systems like the United States‘GPS. Galileo‘s Public Regulated Service (PRS) — a secure and encrypted signal used for defense and government purposes — is meant to be restricted to EU members.

    That means that after Brexit, British companies would not be able to bid for contracts involved in developing and maintaining PRS, and the U.K. would have to work out a deal with the EU even to become a passive user of the military-grade signal, unless another arrangement was reached.

    I get the distinct impression that those who voted 'Leave' did so under the ridiculous belief that life would continue as normal, but the UK would be completely independent. In other words, they falsely believed or were led to believe that not much would change in the manner in which they lead their lives - they would still have visa free access, etc.. And the reality is that all of that was wrong. And Boris and co have this expectation that the EU somehow owes the UK or should give the UK everything it wants. It's just astonishing really.

    Speaking of Ireland..

    Northern Ireland would remain with the United Kingdom. The country of Ireland, with which it shares a border, would stay a part of the EU. Johnson's plan would create a customs border between the two Irish countries.

    This could reignite The Troubles. It was a 30-year conflict in Northern Ireland between mainly Catholic Irish nationalists and pro-British Protestants. In 1998, it ended with the promise of no border between Northern Ireland and Ireland. It would also force 35,000 commuters to go through customs on their way to and from work. Some of those in Northern Ireland who want to remain in the EU could call for a referendum to rejoin the country of Ireland
    .
    Frankly, could not make this up if one tried.
     
  20. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    13,077
    I find that a strange idea

    After 3 years of nothing but stuff ups from parliament didn't a brand new party only a few months old grab a large percentage of votes

    If you think they didn't know the real true issues because they were lied to, when they voted over 3 years ago, surely after being feed Brexit for breakfast lunch and dinner as well as morning afternoon and supper as well as swilling it down at the pub they would have SOME idea of what was going on

    And they STILL voted for a BREXIT party

    Ya right

    Ignorant slobs the lot

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  21. Bells Staff Member

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    I would imagine the sheer level of stuff up's and the general incompetence and the fact that what they were promised by the 'Leave' side has and will continue to fail to come to fruition is why they may now want to remain.

    Do they though?

    I mean, do you think they do?

    "Some idea" about something that will affect their future and affect them for generations.. It's a terrifying prospect.

    Well yes.

    A party that in the lead up to the election had no policies. Is it really surprising that in the midst of the dumpster fire that is the Brexit negotiation, people voted for the Brexit party?
     
  22. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    Any negotiation, very loose definition of what was talking place, was along the lines of

    UK - we have these arrangements in place and they could be rolled over

    EU - NO

    UK - OK well about.....

    EU - NO

    UK - But....

    EU - NO

    YES

    I put that down to THEY WANT TO LEAVE

    Parliament is the blockage by claiming "No no you don't understand. WE know BETTER THAN YOU, and you really don't want to leave. Your only saying you do"

    Talk about a bunch of condescending AHOLES

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    Last edited: Sep 16, 2019
  23. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    There is only one solution to this dilemma.
    Any thing else will be potentially disastrous to the UK.

    That is to acknowledge that the UK is a democracy and go to a snap election with the view to gaining a Brexit or not mandate.
    The cost of an election is by far less expensive in societal and economic costs than proceeding the way they are going at the moment.
    It is after all the people that need to decide, now that they are more informed and less hysterical due to all the issues that were prevalent at the time the referendum was carried out.
    ( not to underestimate the impact of ISIL terrorism, mass migration hysteria etc)
    Democracy demands that the issue be again put to the people with a definitive outcome guaranteed.
    The societal and economic cost of NOT going to an election will be IMO seriously significant to the future of the UK union and social unity.

    A general election is a must IMO to resolve this vexation.

    All parties MUST accept the result of an election... period.

    The Queen in her wisdom may very well use her powers to dissolve parliament and force an election to resolve this issue.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2019

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