To all Catholics

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Mors, May 29, 2003.

  1. Kant we all... Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    99
    I'm sorry, but you're quite wrong. Other branches of Christianity, as a rule, don't know what they're saying. And as for these dumb Catholics you encounter, they sound foolish because they do not understand what they believe. The problem with those of the Protestant/Calvinist bent is that their fundamentalism allows them no intellectual freedom; they cannot question scripture, for example. Orthodox Catholicism encourages reason and intellect; it encourages just as much "why" as it does "what." Catholicism is structured in such a way that humans--i.e., beings of Reason--can assent to it. Simple principle being that all Catholic doctrine is grounded not solely in revelation, but also in reason. Protestantism is an emotional pursuit; Catholicism is an intellectual pursuit.
     
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  3. Red Devil Born Again Athiest Registered Senior Member

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    1,996
    Please correct me if wrong but didn't Elijah get a freebie on a flaming chariot? And supposedly saw the "heaven" meaning "up there". Now, in modern parlance this means that an astronaut landed his ship near to Elijah and offered him a trip around the solar system. I would certainly call it a "flaming something" - that depends on when it occured as the describer would use the language known at that time. In WW2 it would have been a "flaming V2" - in victorian times a "flaming flying machine" and in the 17th C a "flaming coach" - its all down to the witness in the end! Now, in reply to this I would actually welcome a biblical quote to see what is actually printed in interpretation.
     
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  5. okinrus Registered Senior Member

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    2,669
    9
    2 When they had crossed over, Elijah said to Elisha, "Ask for whatever I may do for you, before I am taken from you." Elisha answered, "May I receive a double portion of your spirit."
    10
    "You have asked something that is not easy," he replied. "Still, if you see me taken up from you, your wish will be granted; otherwise not."
    11
    As they walked on conversing, a flaming chariot and flaming horses came between them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.
    12
    3 When Elisha saw it happen he cried out, "My father! my father! Israel's chariots and drivers!" But when he could no longer see him, Elisha gripped his own garment and tore it in two.
    13
    Then he picked up Elijah's mantle which had fallen from him, and went back and stood at the bank of the Jordan.
    14
    Wielding the mantle which had fallen from Elijah, he struck the water in his turn and said, "Where is the LORD, the God of Elijah?" When Elisha struck the water it divided and he crossed over.
    15
    The guild prophets in Jericho, who were on the other side, saw him and said, "The spirit of Elijah rests on Elisha." They went to meet him, bowing to the ground before him.
     
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  7. EvilPoet I am what I am Registered Senior Member

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    2 Kings 2:9-15 (NAB)
     
  8. EvilPoet I am what I am Registered Senior Member

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    2,007
    A little history...

    "The early Christian church became organized under five patriarchs, the bishops of Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria, Constantinople and Rome. While Rome could claim an authority descending from St. Peter, Constantinople had become the residence of the Emperor and the Senate. The fact that the bishop of Rome did not recognise the supremacy of the emperor in ecclesiastical matters coupled with an estrangement due to the separate rites, led to the split in 1054 which divided the Church into the Roman Catholic Church in the West and the Eastern Orthodox Church in the East (Greece, Russia and much of the Slavic lands, Anatolia, Syria, Egypt, etc.); this is called the Great Schism. (Conversely, most Eastern Orthodox believe the split arose because the other patriarchs failed to recognize the supremacy of the Bishop of Rome in ecclesiastical matters, particularly regarding the addition of the filioque clause to the Nicene Creed.) The next major split of the Catholic Church occurred in the 1500s in the Protestant Reformation, where many of the Protestant (protesting) denominations began." [More...]

    See also: Catholic Encyclopedia: Catholic
     
  9. Siddhartha Registered Senior Member

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    317
    Catholicism teaches that men can forgive your sins, not God. Catholicism baptises babies, contrary to Biblical Doctrine. Catholocism holds that the Pope is the representative of God on Earth. Where is this taught in the Bible? Catholicism teaches that you should pray to the saints for intercession? Show me that in the Bible. Catholicism teaches that in religious ceremony, bread and wine can become the actual physical body and blood of Jesus Christ. Where is this taught in the Bible? The list does go on...
     
  10. Circe Registered Senior Member

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    406
    All good points, Siddhartha.
    Just want to add one thing in regards to the eucharist - the sacrament is not originally christian. It was introduced to Christianity from Mithraism by Saul of Tarsus, who, btw, was condemned for it by the early Christian church father, Tertullian.

    The symbol of Mithraism was a bull so, of course, we're talking bull's blood and body here.
     
  11. okinrus Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,669
    With God, the apostles are able to cleanse those of leprosy.

    Show me the part in the bible where it says babies
    are not to be baptised? In fact there is no part.
    It says entire familys were baptised. In another
    part in the bible Jesus blesses infants. No
    one was considered Christian unless they were
    baptised.

    We all represent God. In the bible Jesus gives many parables
    of a manager

    Elisha ask for the gift of the spirit from Elijah.

    The last supper, John 6, Corinthians 10 B.
    Other evidence that apostles taught this
    can be found by examining the writings of early Christians
    and there are few more places in the bible that I can
    show you.

    Please if your going to insult someone back up what
    you say. "feeds with the Eucharist"
    http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/tertullian11.html
     
  12. Siddhartha Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    317
    You're not answering the question. When does a man decide that a sin is laid to rest and all is ok with God? Never is this the case. Only God can forgive sins, no man is allowed this privilege.

    It is stated in the Bible that a man must make a decision to come unto Christ. He must not be baptised as a child when they don't even know what decision means. The whole idea is pointless. What does the ceremony mean? Do you think that if a baby is killed before being baptised, God would condemn it to hell? Do you think that being baptised as a baby would make things A Ok with God for a serial killer in later life?

    That avoids the question again. Where does it say in the Bible that a man will be appointed and he alone will be an infallible representative of God on Earth (despite the fact that historically various Popes have been very very fallible).

    Exodus 20:4 - Don't pray to idols or graven images. No more kneeling before the statue of Mary, God forbids it, for he is a jealous God. (Yet even us men see jealousy as a bad personality trait).

    Jesus did not teach that it *actually* became his physical body and blood. He taught it in a metaphorical sense, this much is clear from context, though Catholicism teaches that the bread and the wine are actually his physical body and blood.
     
  13. okinrus Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,669
    As I explained early the confession is to God with the
    priest listening. The priest forgives the sin through God.
    Jesus says "Forgive each other as I have forgiven you".
    And so if the repentance is true then God has forgiven
    us and the priest is just stating that fact.

    Jesus says while blessing the infants that we must come
    to the kingdom of God like a child.
    circumcision was performed on babies by Israelites.
    Now we are under the new convenant shed by our
    saviors blood, the new Israel, and so we too baptise babies.
    I do not think that the baby killed would have
    has much glory. If we look at the stars some are
    not as bright but we can be fairly assured that they will
    go to heaven. Some of the early Christians were
    baptised as babies for example Polycarp.

    No it says don't worship as God. Praying to Mary is
    just asking for her to pray to God with us.
    It is not worship.

    2 Kings 2:9 When they had crossed over, Elijah said to Elisha, "Ask for whatever I may do for you, before I am taken from you." Elisha answered, 'May I receive a double portion of your spirit.' You have asked something that is not easy," he replied. "Still if you see me taken up from you, your wish will be granted; otherwise not."

    2 Kings:15 The guild prophets in Jericho, who were on the other side, saw him and said "The spirit of Elijah rests on Elisha."
    They went to meet him, bowing to the ground before him."

    Are you even reading the passages I gave you?

    1
    1 I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea,
    2
    and all of them were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
    3
    All ate the same spiritual food,
    4
    and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they drank from a spiritual rock that followed them, 2 and the rock was the Christ.
    5
    Yet God was not pleased with most of them, for they were struck down in the desert.
    6
    3 These things happened as examples for us, so that we might not desire evil things, as they did.
    7
    And do not become idolaters, as some of them did, as it is written, "The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to revel."
    8
    Let us not indulge in immorality as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell within a single day.
    9
    Let us not test Christ 4 as some of them did, and suffered death by serpents.
    10
    Do not grumble as some of them did, and suffered death by the destroyer.
    11
    These things happened to them as an example, and they have been written down as a warning to us, upon whom the end of the ages has come. 5
    12
    Therefore, whoever thinks he is standing secure should take care not to fall. 6
    13
    No trial has come to you but what is human. God is faithful and will not let you be tried beyond your strength; but with the trial he will also provide a way out, so that you may be able to bear it.
    14
    7 Therefore, my beloved, avoid idolatry.
    15
    I am speaking as to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I am saying.
    16
    The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?
    17
    Because the loaf of bread is one, we, though many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf.
    18
    Look at Israel according to the flesh; are not those who eat the sacrifices participants in the altar?
    19
    So what am I saying? That meat sacrificed to idols is anything? Or that an idol is anything?
    20
    No, I mean that what they sacrifice, (they sacrifice) to demons, 8 not to God, and I do not want you to become participants with demons.
    21
    You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and also the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and of the table of demons.
    22
    Or are we provoking the Lord to jealous anger? Are we stronger than he?
    23
    9 "Everything is lawful," but not everything is beneficial. 10 "Everything is lawful," but not everything builds up.
    24
    No one should seek his own advantage, but that of his neighbor.
    25
    11 Eat anything sold in the market, without raising questions on grounds of conscience,
    26
    for "the earth and its fullness are the Lord's."
    27
    If an unbeliever invites you and you want to go, eat whatever is placed before you, without raising questions on grounds of conscience.
    28
    But if someone says to you, "This was offered in sacrifice," do not eat it on account of the one who called attention to it and on account of conscience;
    29
    I mean not your own conscience, but the other's. For why should my freedom be determined by someone else's conscience?
    30
    If I partake thankfully, why am I reviled for that over which I give thanks?
    31
    So whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do everything for the glory of God.
    32
    12 Avoid giving offense, whether to Jews or Greeks or the church of God,
    33
    just as I try to please everyone in every way, not seeking my own benefit but that of the many, that they may be saved.
     
  14. okinrus Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,669
    http://www.catholic.com/library/papal_infallibility.asp

    These passages relate to Peter being the manager
    or Pope if you will. Peter also recieves the keys
    to the kingdom of heaven in other
    words he fullfills "Truly, I say to you, he will put him in charge of all his property."

    John
    15
    8 9 10 When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." He said to him, "Feed my lambs."
    16
    He then said to him a second time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." He said to him, "Tend my sheep."
    17
    He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" Peter was distressed that he had said to him a third time, "Do you love me?" and he said to him, "Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you." (Jesus) said to him, "Feed my sheep.

    Luke
    35
    8 "Gird your loins and light your lamps
    36
    and be like servants who await their master's return from a wedding, ready to open immediately when he comes and knocks.
    37
    Blessed are those servants whom the master finds vigilant on his arrival. Amen, I say to you, he will gird himself, have them recline at table, and proceed to wait on them.
    38
    And should he come in the second or third watch and find them prepared in this way, blessed are those servants.
    39
    Be sure of this: if the master of the house had known the hour when the thief was coming, he would not have let his house be broken into.
    40
    You also must be prepared, for at an hour you do not expect, the Son of Man will come."
    41
    Then Peter said, "Lord, is this parable meant for us or for everyone?"
    42
    And the Lord replied, "Who, then, is the faithful and prudent steward whom the master will put in charge of his servants to distribute (the) food allowance at the proper time?
    43
    Blessed is that servant whom his master on arrival finds doing so.
    44
    Truly, I say to you, he will put him in charge of all his property.
    45
    But if that servant says to himself, 'My master is delayed in coming,' 9 and begins to beat the menservants and the maidservants, to eat and drink and get drunk,
    46
    then that servant's master will come on an unexpected day and at an unknown hour and will punish him severely and assign him a place with the unfaithful.
    47
    That servant who knew his master's will but did not make preparations nor act in accord with his will shall be beaten severely;
    48
    and the servant who was ignorant of his master's will but acted in a way deserving of a severe beating shall be beaten only lightly. Much will be required of the person entrusted with much, and still more will be demanded of the person entrusted with more.

    MATTHEW 16:16-20 -- And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou are the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
     
  15. Circe Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    406
    Okinrus,

    What do you want me back up? The fact that the bull was a symbol of Mithraism or that they had an eucharist? Both are true, please research it for yourself. The eucharist was "borrowed" from Mithraism, only the blood and body of a bull was changed into those of Christ.
    In fact, there are many similarities between the two religions.
     
  16. Kant we all... Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    99
    Catholicism teaches that God can forgive your sins through certain men who are ordained by God to carry out said task. As far as baptizing infants goes, grace falls where it will; whether a child is born into the Church is based on the will of God; and just as it is only proper for parents to bring their children up practicing good hygeine and teaching them to "do the right thing," so they teach their children to embrace the true religion. Popes are the successors of St. Peter whom Christ dubbed "The rock upon which I shall build my church"--the papacy is instituted by God, not men. Praying to the saints for intercession is just the same as if you were going to ask a friend or family member to pray for you; it doesn't matter if it's in the bible or not. Don't be so ignorant: the bread and the wine at Mass was instituted at the Last Supper; additionally, the whole of the book of the Revelation to St. John explained what should be done at Mass.
     
  17. okinrus Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,669
    David and his followers eat the holy bread from the temple.
    This portended Christ and so we too
    consegrate ourselves to truth before
    partaking the bread. Therefore bread wavers were
    used by the Jews long before Mithraism. Unleavened
    bread was used at passover and in Jewish sacrafices.

    I wanted you to back up your claim about
    Tertullian because I just quoted him
    speaking about the Eucharist. So why would
    he borrow from a condemned heretic?
    The Eucharist was taught by the deciples and we
    can read this in the works of Justin and Ignatus.

    http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-firstapology.html
    "But we, after we have thus washed him who has been convinced and has assented to our teaching, bring him to the place where those who are called brethren are assembled, in order that we may offer hearty prayers in common for ourselves and for the baptized [illuminated] person, and for all others in every place, that we may be counted worthy, now that we have learned the truth, by our works also to be found good citizens and keepers of the commandments, so that we may be saved with an everlasting salvation. Having ended the prayers, we salute one another with a kiss. There is then brought to the president of the brethren bread and a cup of wine mixed with water; and he taking them, gives praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and offers thanks at considerable length for our being counted worthy to receive these things at His hands. And when he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all the people present express their assent by saying Amen. This word Amen answers in the Hebrew language to genoito [so be it]. And when the president has given thanks, and all the people have expressed their assent, those who are called by us deacons give to each of those present to partake of the bread and wine mixed with water over which the thanksgiving was pronounced, and to those who are absent they carry away a portion. "

    CHAPTER 20
    20:1 If Jesus Christ should count me worthy through
    your prayer, and it should be the Divine will, in my
    second tract, which I intend to write to you, I will
    further set before you the dispensation whereof I have
    begun to speak, relating to the new man Jesus Christ,
    which consisteth in faith towards Him and in love
    towards Him, in His passion and resurrection,
    20:2 especially if the Lord should reveal aught to
    me. Assemble yourselves together in common, every one
    of you severally, man by man, in grace, in one faith
    and one Jesus Christ, who after the flesh was of
    David's race, who is Son of Man and Son of God, to the
    end that ye may obey the bishop and presbytery without
    distraction of mind; breaking one bread, which is the
    medicine of immortality and the antidote that we
    should not die but live for ever in Jesus Christ.
    http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/ignatius-ephesians-lightfoot.html
     
  18. Red Devil Born Again Athiest Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,996
    Thats one heck of a load of posts to go through!!

    1. Thanks Evilpoet - I think the biblical terminology proves my point.

    2. Saints are the invention of the church - eg: man.

    3. Everything that the church uses is "stolen" from another faith - does that mean the church has broken that commandment "Thou Shalt Not Nick Things"???
     
  19. Guyute Senior Member Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    916
    i also was a catholic at birth.....i found that it made no sense to right now at my stage of life......that is all (your mission makes you look pretty ugly)
     
  20. okinrus Registered Senior Member

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    2,669
    I don't care if I look ugly nor do I have a mission besides
    presenting the truth. Somethings don't
    make sense until you look more closely.
    At the end of Luke, the two deciples on the road to
    Jerusalem do not reconize Jesus until he breaks the bread with them.

    Unlike some, I need evidence to believe in something. The pagans sacraficed animal to their
    gods just as Jews did. Does that mean that
    the Jews stole animal sacrifices from the pagans?
    The Egyptian God Akhetanon was known as the Son
    of God. Even on egptian legend has the king eating the flesh
    of gods for occult power. In another egyptian writing
    has basically the 10 commandments.
     
  21. Guyute Senior Member Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    916
    dude...chill out....i was listening to a song and added in the verse...calm down....im sure the truth will present itself to you in all good time.....till then ROCK ON my biach.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  22. okinrus Registered Senior Member

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    2,669
    What do you consider the truth?
     
  23. Guyute Senior Member Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    916
    well ok

    dont know just trying to chill the dude out....but for arguments sake lets say the truth is withen death. Lets all hope that when you die the true meaning of life is reaveiled and all knowledge will be given....that would be sweet.....shoot.
     

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