Prejudice and Bigotry in Law Enforcement

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Tiassa, Jun 23, 2020.

  1. arfa brane call me arf Valued Senior Member

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    7,832
    So everyone should just calm the fuck down? Since racism will never be completely eliminated, everyone should just shut the hell up? The last thing we need is people creating dissatisfaction (whatever the hell that means)?
    But trying to be an apologist for white racism doesn't seem to be doing you much good.
     
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  3. Seattle Valued Senior Member

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    Yes. Figure out what isn't working and correct that. Mob mentality is rarely right and usually results in making things worse.
     
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  5. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    ¡Achtung! Don't click.

    Says the one relying on white supremacist tropes:

    "Are you seriously suggesting that 6 kids with 6 'baby daddy' in the hood is because they can't access Planned Parenthood?" (#73↑)

    "If your daughter was 30 with 5 kids and 5 'baby daddies' you wouldn't say 'It's not your fault, you don't have enough money for proper health care'." (#74↑)

    You were really fixated on that point for eight or ten minutes, or so.

    No, really, the one post came eight minutes after the other. You're really putting a lot of thought into this.
     
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  7. Seattle Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, that's your "trope". If I use the word "baby daddy" I'm "racist" or I'm "fixated" or it's know that racists say "I'm not racist" of our everyone else says I'm not racist as well.

    You are just offering more of the same name calling. You can even admit that having few kids would have more positive effect than all the things you are talking about. That's how bad it has become.

    Why are you putting yourself into such a contorted, sad, intellectual corner? I forgot to add "No, really".

    No really, why are you putting yourself into such a contorted, sad, intellectual corner. To the one it's contorted and to the other it's sad.
     
  8. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    Click for ironic incongruity.

    If you're only willing to answer for part of what you said—

    —you might consider reconsidering the self-righteous self-denigration.
     
  9. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

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    You're not one for "mob mentality," but doesn't it make you question anything at all when every single poster within this thread--well more than a handful--is telling you that what you are saying is, in fact, pretty fucking racist? (The only dissenting views come in the form of "likes" from two posters--one of whom can't be bothered to keep up with the news cycle, but calls you a "bully" and a "liar" if you point this out, and the other seems to think that the mildest abrogation of "State's rights" is somehow virtually identical to slavery (or something like that).)

    And you seem obsessed with everyone's personal circumstances and seem to regard simply addressing reality through a critical lens as somehow equivalent to "complaining" about one's own personal plight. As far as I can see, I am the only poster who introduced an element of my own "personal plight," and I specifically stated that it was quite funny in retrospect, even if it sucked in the moment (a nurse telling me to stop "thrashing around" when the nature of my problem was specifically that I could not stop "thrashing around.")
     
  10. Seattle Valued Senior Member

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    I'm not denigrating myself. You could argue that I'm denigrating you but let's at least be clear about that.

    I'm willing to answer anything I've said or that you've said. You aren't interested in that. All you have is what you have, which is very little.

    The actual denigration is bending over backward to flagellate yourself with "white guilt". The condescension is the comments supposedly on the behalf of blacks by whites as if they aren't capable but it's "OK because you are discriminated against and that's why you aren't doing well".

    I could say that you aren't doing well because you live with your mom and don't fit in particularly well in society. I could say that it's not fair that there is some Asperger's in your behavior and people just don't understand anything that is different but that wouldn't be helping you.

    It's OK to understand hardships but it's not helpful to dwell on them because people are so much more than that. No one had it worse than Helen Keller and yet she accomplished more than most of us would be able to do.

    If I imply that you are living in another world whereby you are a well respected commentator I would be feeding into your fantasy rather than by trying to point out the reality even if it seems a little harsh.

    Which approach is actually going to help you more?
     
  11. Seattle Valued Senior Member

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    8,849
    I have respect for people. I don't have respect for everyone's views, especially on this forum as they often are rather ignorant, emotionally based and un-nuanced.

    I take into account the personal nature of those who are talking to me in a personal conversation. You can't divorce the two. If someone is always bitter, never likes anyone, and is always extreme (for instance) I think it's fair to look at their personal circumstances.

    I could easily find a forum where everyone would get what I'm saying. Start with addressing issues and you want have to worry about anything else. To start a reply with "you're a troll, racist, etc" and then not adding anything else...you're better off to just not reply as you haven't contributed anything.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2020
  12. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

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    Within this thread alone, countless links to studies, i.e., science, have been provided--all wholly discount what you have been saying. Have you provided any citations? Are you discounting science?
     
  13. Seattle Valued Senior Member

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    I'm not going to play that game. First of all this isn't "science". We both know that in social matters there are plenty of links that anyone could provide.

    I posted a video where some of these issues are discussed by very intelligent people in a very non-confrontational and nuanced way...no one responded.

    This also isn't about citing studies that show that there is racism. No one is citing data disputing that having fewer kids, more education has worked to improve most lives that included those things.

    No one here will admit that many black lives have been greatly improved in spite of all the issues raised because they had fewer kids, got an education and took responsibility for their lives. Those that haven't done that didn't see those improvements and yet all faced the same outside factors (discrimination).

    No one on this whole forum ever talks about the elephant in the room. They are all too busy with "white guilt" and name calling. This isn't exactly an intellectual bunch.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2020
  14. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    16,479
    perhaps if you don't want to be called racist you should you know try not to be so racist. your a broken record like the poo tossing ape. im not racist i just quote everything single racist trope and dog whistle i can find is your attitude. your racist just admit and grow or continue being a racist dick its your life do what you want but for fucks sake don't act like your not racist as all fuck. you are the personification of racist entitled white upper middle class right wing bullshit
     
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  15. Bells Staff Member

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    24,270
    His argument comes across as 'just be white, duh!'..

    And of course it's deliberate. It is also insidious.

    That is what you have been arguing, Seattle.

    Case in point:

    You are racist. By choice. And it is deliberate.

    While completely ignoring how people of colour and minorities are discriminated against in hiring, college placements, rent, loans.

    Bias, stereotyping, racial discrimination persists.

    https://hbr.org/2017/10/hiring-discrimination-against-black-americans-hasnt-declined-in-25-years
    https://www.vox.com/policy-and-poli...rkplace-discrimination-cpi-investigation-eeoc
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_wage_gap_in_the_United_States#Discrimination
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2915460/
    https://www.urban.org/features/exposing-housing-discrimination

    Is anywhere in the US safe if one is black?

    Black kids aren't even safe in their own homes.

    Authorities said a black teen was pepper-sprayed inside the home of his white foster family when officers mistook him for a burglar Monday afternoon.

    DeShawn Currie, 18, had just returned from school when police arrived to the Fuquay-Varina, North Carolina, residence in response to reported break-in. A neighbor who saw the teenager enter through a side door of the house mistook him for an intruder and called 911.

    Currie told ABC 11 that the cops ordered him to put his hands on the door. "I was like, 'For what? This is my house,' he said. "I was like, 'Why are y'all in here?'"

    The cops said they pepper-sprayed the teen after he became “threatening” and “belligerent.”

    Currie said officers pointed out pictures of his white foster siblings as proof he did not belong in the house.

    https://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/entry/black-teen-mistaken-burglar_n_5954138?ri18n=true

    Why do you think Yale is any different?

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/09/nyregion/yale-black-student-nap.html

    Nice stereotyping there.. Did you pull that from a KKK blog of some description?

    To whom?

    Because minorities, the disabled, women, LGBTQ, African Americans, Native Americans are not getting what you claim "is given".

    No shit Sherlock!

    And the reason there is no equality of outcomes is because of bigotry and discrimination.

    You really have little understanding or knowledge of your country's history, do you?

    To the one, black people are more often than not not paid the same as white people.

    To the other, institutional racism means that even if they were, their assets would be valued lower and less than that of whites for reasons linked above. And it has everything to do with racism, historically and presently.

    You're really digging into those tropes and stereotypes from white supremacist sites, aren't you?

    And yet, all evidence shows just how much it is true.

    You have yet to provide a single link to support any of your ridiculous claims in this thread.

    Oh hey! Look..! Another white supremacist racist stereotype.

    You're nothing but a tired cliché.
     
  16. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    If that was true, you would have.
     
  17. Seattle Valued Senior Member

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    It's "you're" not "your".
     
  18. Seattle Valued Senior Member

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    The is no equality of outcomes because that's not how life works. Blacks are what 14% of the population? Does that mean that 14% of violin players should be black in the absence of any discrimination? Should 14% of all Olympic swimmers be black? How about the diamond trade, should most in that trade be white rather than Jewish?

    Is there no legitimate reason for blacks to not have as many assets as whites, or Jews or Asians? Is none of it cultural or individual choices?

    How many poor hispanic kids have Air Jordans? How many black women have less money but better cars than white women of the same income bracket? People are individuals and make individual decisions and it's not reasonable to expect equal outcomes.

    How many black female physicists are there? If it's not many is that because of racism?

    How many tornadoes are there in each country around the world? Most of them are in the American Mid-West. Most of the diamonds are in Africa. These things aren't distributed equally.

    People's choices of occupations aren't distributed equally either. Most guys don't go into nursing. You don't end up with equal assets unless you go into higher paying professions in equal numbers. You don't end up with equal assets unless you have smaller families in equal numbers. Those who defer self-gratification end up with more assets.

    Those are the largest factors. Yes, if there were smaller differences between black and white assets you could make more valid arguments about history, racism, etc.

    In law there is a concept called mitigation of damages. Someone could bump into your car and do a little damage. If you just leave the car there with all the windows open and walk away and it rains for a month and instead of asking for $1,000 in damages for the small dent you ask for $20,000 because your car is now flooded from all the rain the other side will invoke the concept of mitigation of damages. You did nothing to keep the likelihood of further damages down.

    If your ancestors were slaves 200 years ago and you weren't able to go to college 60 years ago and they follow you around in the jewelry shop today because they think you might shoplift...that's not "fair" and it might explain why you aren't quite as well of as some white guy. It doesn't explain the 10 to 1 difference.

    It may explain 10% of the difference. The 90% of the difference is that you didn't choose to go to college within the last 50 years of affirmative action, college grants, loans, the fact that you work at Costco but have 6 kids and you spend more than you save and you didn't buy a house, etc.

    If you are black and that's not what you did. You do have a lot more assets than those numbers are talking about. If you have an education and 2 kids and two income earners in your house...you have a lot more assets than that average black asset number indicates.

    There are plenty of white people who went to college, didn't delay self-gratification and retire with very little. It doesn't just show up because one is white.

    What does that tell us? That while there is racism it's not nearly enough to explain the disparity. That's leaves personal initiative and decisions.

    Bells, do you have roughly the same amount of assets for your age group as every other group in Australia? If so, racism isn't a significant factor for you.

    It's the same in the U.S. except the gap is a little wider for all groups because there is more money at the top. The "rich" have a lot more money than everyone. It's not a white or black thing.

    There is a difference between saying there is some racism, there is some poverty, there is some unemployment and saying every problem that you have is caused by one of those things rather than by your own choices in life.

    All white people don't have the same assets either. That can't be because of racism.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2020
  19. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Compared with any country not founded on race-based slavery and still burdened with the social, economic, and demographic handicaps of such an evil, the US is a racist nation.

    And of course objectively speaking - evaluated by the physical facts of the matter as they appear in three centuries of public record - the US is fundamentally racist. It's more racist than it is rich, for example. It's more racist than it is militarily strong. It's more racist than it is democratic. There's no need for "comparisons" with other nations to discover that.

    Why anyone would scrabble around in the fringes of international circumstance to find some "comparison" that allows them to ignore the overwhelming influence of racial bigotry on US society and politics and economics and so forth is a matter of speculation - but that's a topic for another thread.
    This is a post from a guy who claims not to be racist.
    So is that.

    That's a post from a guy who is trying to argue that racism in America is not important, does not affect black people very much, is not a significant part of American society, economics, politics, etc. He is posting that in defense of his contention that racism in America is not significant.

    You can't make this shit up.
     
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  20. Seattle Valued Senior Member

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    You are making a response to me, you don't need to refer to me in the third person.

    If a black person and a white person both go to college and both go into medicine (0r anything else) and both go to work for the same company in the same town. At retirement time are you saying that, due to racism, there will be a vast difference in their assets?

    Your running commentary does nothing to bolster your weak arguments...troll, racist, this guy, you can't make this shit up, etc.

    That really seems to be all you have. Could that be because you don't really know what you are talking about and it's just bitterness and emotion speaking?
     
  21. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    30,994
    Hard to say. Until the huge and dominant effects of racism have been taken into account and the data adjusted accordingly, the secondary factors (if any) will not even be visible in the evidence.
    Almost certainly, in part, yes. That and misogyny would be the first things to consider (since we know they are significant). (A wide variety of other factors such as fascism, the odd circumstances of European anti-Semitism, the economics of higher education in the US and Europe, the destruction of African civilizations, etc, seem to also play notable roles - racism is just the most obvious, not the only).
    Of course not. For the 10/1 difference you would need some of the dozens of other obvious factors,

    such as the effects of racially abusive policing on the prevalence of single motherhood, which would be thread relevant - one would expect it to be considered here long before posting about "ancestors were slaves 200 years ago" (why not "great grandparents were slaves 80 years before you were born"? why not "segregated and ghettoed and abused 20 years ago"?).

    Apparent racism is visible in a variety of statistical tables of relevant physical fact one can search at one's leisure - such as the underemployment of female black professional mathematicians, the demographic distribution of heavy metal poisoning in the US, the demographic distribution of high-quality education in the relevant disciplines, and so forth. It is so obviously visible that the assumption of racism is the default assumption - the burden of proof would be on those who think the obvious conclusions from the overwhelming evidence are mistaken for some reason.

    And that overwhelming evidence includes the prevalence and racial distribution of abusive police and law enforcement.
     
  22. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    30,994
    I'll address whom I please.
    So?
    Not necessarily, no. But maybe. Why do you ask?
    Just picking the low fruit.

    You guys are posting comedy level racist bullshit - you're parodying yourselves. Why would I interrupt with complications?
     
  23. Seattle Valued Senior Member

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    How do you explain the difference between black populations within the U.S. and the great disparities therein?

    There are some black groups who do much better than others and yet all face (or don't face) the same racism. If two groups look alike but only one experiences these great disparities...it's not largely about racism.

    There can be racism without it being a large causal factor. A certain segment of white liberals (I see they're calling them "leftists" these days) seem to be the group who finds the greatest racism. Most informed black people don't seem to be the one pushing your narrative.

    No one is arguing the facts before the mid-60's but that's been a while. The median age for whites in the U.S. is 58, for blacks it's 29.

    For a 29 year old, the 1960's is ancient history. It's also misleading to be comparing assets between 59 year olds and 29 year olds.

    What is your game? Why are you so angry about this subject?
     

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