Ok, many questions. Let's ask an expert. Mario Livio explores math’s uncanny ability to describe, explain, and predict phenomena in the physical world. Math: Discovered, Invented, or Both? BY MARIO LIVIOMONDAY, APRIL 13, 2015 THE NATURE OF REALITY Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! NOVA: The Great Math Mystery Is math invented by humans, or is it the language of the universe? NOVA takes on this question in a new film premiering April 15, 2015 at 9pm on most PBS stations. This video is a must for all interested in Science. NOVA: Describing Nature with Math How do scientists use mathematics to define reality? And why? Peter Tyson investigates two millennia of mathematical discovery. The Washington Post: The Structure of Everything Learn more about the “unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics” in this review of Mario Livio’s book “Is God a Mathematician?” https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/article/great-math-mystery/
Certainly possible. I have made my share of mistakes. But where and how am I mistaken? The point is that if we ask the Universe and our mathematics are done correctly, the Universe will provide the answer. ------------------------------------------------------------ Musing; "Logically, what came first: relational values and mathematical functions, or the physics that contain these qualities." (chicken or the egg) Posit; "In principle, a physical object of any size or pattern is a collection of values interacting in a mathematical fashion." Question; "Can we start with the concept that physical objects create the values and mathematical functions that constitute their physicalness and orderly interactions?" Answer; "IMO, no... the concept of value must exist before the concept of measurable physical matter. Consider that logically, a physical object with zero value cannot exist. It would have no measurable physical properties. There are no physical values...there are only mathematical values that are measurable" "Else how could human symbolic mathematics be able to solve the mysteries of the current physical universe (reality) and be able to makepredictions of probable future events." Conclusion; "For anything to exist it must have a non-zero value or it is not physical but purely mathematical in essence." If it is measurable it is a mathematical pattern of values."
I am mathematics. This is quite the most imperative world view I have ever seen. I just wish you were my age. I’m a bit more eloquent in an audience. And a few more choice operations
Since there's no evidence of any of that, as far as I can tell, I have to assume that this is just a quasi-religious belief you have. The term "behavior potential of spacetime" is meaningless, as far as I can tell. You're missing the point. 1 + 1=2 can't make anything happen. You're missing the point. Explain to me how a mathematical equation like 1 + 1 = 2 can cause anything. By the way, there's really no need to spam random bits of maths or science in this discussion. I know what a dynamical system is. I'm familiar with chaos theory. I know that mathematics is useful in describing physical systems. You don't need to convince me of any of that, or try to educate me about it. Try to focus on the objections I'm putting to you, rather than going off on irrelevant tangents all the time.
This quote from Mario Livio sounds sensible: Notice that he makes no claim that "the world around them" is made of mathematics.
You are presenting an equation. Equations don't make anything happen in human mathematics either. But 1 + 1 makes something happen. All algebraic functions indicate a natural processing of relational values. This mathematical function results in a value 2. Algebraic Functions Function Machine Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Nature is the Function Machine. https://study.com/academy/lesson/algebraic-function-definition-examples.html#[/quote]
(bolded mine) He infers it by claiming that: "human mathematical concepts are abstracted from the world around them"
It sounds like you're agreeing with me. But then... Writing "1 + 1" does not make any processing happen. No processing happens until your brain kicks into gear and you write "=2". And then it's not the "1+1" doing the processing; it's you. Mathematical functions don't make things happen in the real world. "abstracted from" implies that there is a process going on that transforms from what was in "the world around them" to what is in the human mind. The mind is what carries out that "abstraction" or transformation. The mathematics does nothing by itself.
Concept - idea formed in the mind does not go further than (mathematics being a IDEA) Your expanding the CONCEPT (an idea of mathematics in the mind) to the Universe is mathematics is a leap to far Somewhat similar to - Up in the sky a UFO, obviously a flying saucer from Mars Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
OK Abstracted from the world around us! Ducks even...Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Again, the Concept abstracted from observation and utility of natural "regularities". Recurring patterns. "irregular, irregular.....does not compute, does not compute. The human brain is only capable of making best guesses, yet the discovery of mathematically translatable Universal Values and Functions has allowed us to formalize these universal mathematically translatable values and functions to explain everything that happens in the universe. Can we deny that the universe is a Hierarchy of Mathematical Orders, from the very Subtle to Gross expression in Reality (Patterns, within patterns, within patterns, within......). Reality is a fractal terrain. Very mathematical in essence.......Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
It's a little more than that. It's an interesting word. Concept https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concept
Here's the thing I struggle with when it comes to mathematics and the mathematical structure we perceive in the universe. A theory is anthropocentric, and involves mental activity whereas the universe doesn't think (!) However, mental activity is also a physical process, it's just one of the many physical processes we know (not very much yet) about. So it seems that understanding how we think, how does a brain really function etc, might be part of the answer. But it might still be true that mathematics is an entirely mental phenomenon, and just a feature of how our brains work. But brains are physical and so are thoughts, both are a part of the physical universe.
I'm not a big fan of the 50 odd Marvel superhero movies that have come out over the last 12 years or so, only seen a couple myself with friends who like that stuff, but your point reminds me of my biggest objection to the whole Black Panther Wakanda advanced civilization thing. For those not in the know, in the Marvel comics universe Wakanda is an ancient African kingdom that has for thousands of years possessed a multi-generational technological advantage over the rest of the world, due to the presence of a powerful exotic alien material that originated from an asteroid. Sorry but I can't see how you're going to discover results such as Euler's trick for evaluating the Riemann Zeta function at even integers just from studying an exotic piece of metal, and historically our developments in physics tended to follow closely on the heels of related developments in mathematics, which were often discovered independent of any practical goal but only shortly before finding practical application (i.e. Riemannian geometry before General Relativity).
I agree, but the universe does not need to think, we humans need to think. The spacetime is a mathematically self-regulating system of becoming expressed from the very subtle quantum values to gross expression in reality in an evolutionary process of increasingly complex functional patterns. A daisey doesn't know the Fibonacci sequence, but the plant's cells self-organize in the spiral distribution of the petals and leaf growth as the evolved most efficient form of balanced vertical growth and exposed petal area for photosynthesis. IOW, the mathematical order of petal growth is a product of evolution by Natural selection. One of the mathematical ways things work.... in nature.....Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
My understanding of Godel's paradox is just that in a logically consistent system which includes the axioms of the natural numbers, it's always possible to construct statements such as "This sentence is a lie" which cannot be proven true or false, it doesn't mean AFAIK that numbers have useful properties we'll never be able to prove (other than induction), nor that there are physical things in the universe we can't describe. I think Godel's paradox is related to the axiom of induction not being provable from the other axioms of natural numbers, because it's imposing a logical condition on objects that have already been completely defined. Anyhow Godel did a lot of work in logic theory and I was just citing him as an example, it's not specifically from his work that I've heard this claim about arbitrary logical universes behaving mathematically (and the claim itself could have been a misunderstanding on my part).
With an invention you can choose many different approaches and tweak things until you get the desired result. In mathematics the result is automatic and impermeable, you can't just change the way you do the calculation to get the result you want (and if you can that means there's a logical error somewhere).
I am a human who pulls two tons to you won ton of space time because of my Galial cells and not only the space between them but The information they hold. Not only does this affect the past but effects the future.
i think indoctrinated religion(& its many Ego personalty's) prevents a lot of people from being able to process space-time
