Religion and women.

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Xelasnave.1947, Jan 12, 2021.

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  1. billvon

    billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Best for you. Not always best for them, or for the people involved.
    I agree! And from my examples, good people come from unconventional families.
    Not obvious at all. A child does not instinctively know who their biological parents are, nor are biological parents inherently any better for children. Indeed, responsible, loving adoptive parents are usually going to be much, much better for a child than loving biological parents who are drug addicts or alcoholics.
    That's why I gave you the opportunity to actually say what you believe.

    So let's try again.

    You have said that it is better that the man be the head of the household and the woman to stay home and care for the kids. Do you believe that, or do you believe that the WOMAN is the best person to decide what role in the family she should play? Simple question.
     
    billvon, Feb 10, 2021
    #921

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  3. James R

    James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Moderator note: Jan Ardena has been warned for trolling and for knowingly telling lies. He will be well aware that all three of the people he is addressing in the above quotes have already done what he demands they do, yet he continues to ignore their responses, only to repeat the same demand/lie.

    Due to accumulated warning points, Jan will be taking a 3 day break from sciforums.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2021
    James R, Feb 10, 2021
    #922

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  5. Michael 345

    Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    Well I'm thinking any combination, other than mum - dad - kid, Jan would consider unnatural

    At one stage during my marriage I took a year off looking after young daughter and doing all the mum stuff

    Going to the parents meetings. Since I worked as a nurse (as did wife) I was comfortable with the mother's and none seemed perturbed by my presence

    Good times

    Perhaps a challenge for Jan to go to a few mother's baby sitter's meetings and bring up misogyny

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    Michael 345, Feb 10, 2021
    #923

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  7. wegs

    wegs Matter and Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    I've decided to respond to Jan, in like manner, asking the same questions over and over. If he asks me to explain why I think he's a misogynist, I'm going to ask him why he thinks I think that?

    It could be fun, James.

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    wegs, Feb 10, 2021
    #924
  8. Michael 345

    Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    I'd top up your screen ink supply

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    Michael 345, Feb 10, 2021
    #925
  9. James R

    James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    I have not claimed you used the word "force".

    Force, by the way, doesn't have to be physical force. It can be, for example, social pressure from within a particular community. When a women is brought up in a strict religious environment with a rigid patriarchal structure, the men around her can exert their social power to effectively restrict the life choices that are available to her. For example, a father can arrange a marriage for his daughter to another patriarch ally's son, often involving a dowry payment to that family to "take her off his hands". The daughter's views on the marriage are often irrelevant. After marriage, the community expectation is that her role will be restricted to "producing progeny", keeping house and serving her husband. Her capacity to move outside of that prescribed (forced) role is, in practice, limited. Apart from anything else, her patriarchal husband most likely has complete control over her assets (if any).

    Do you control your wife's assets, Jan?

    You have been very clear about what you believe are suitable roles for women in your religious community. There is no need for me, or anybody else, to engage in word games with you.

    I don't care what you want to call it. That's a mere distraction, and you know it.

    It is beyond question that you hold sexist, patriarchal views that oppress women. I don't much care about what motivates you to hold those views. It seems to me that your religious indoctrination is very likely to blame. If I had to guess, I'd also venture that you were probably raised in a community in which patriarchal assumptions and controls like the ones I descibed above are considered appropriate and normal. You certainly speak like a man who feels he is entitled to the subservience of women, and you hint that this is how you "head" your own family.

    You excuse your appalling attitudes by saying they are "natural". When we boil that down, your claim that something is "natural" really means nothing other than it is something you approve of. There is no proximate relationship to anything in the actual natural world.

    You also invite readers to commit to the appeal-to-nature fallacy, by assuming that everything that is "natural" must be right and good, or "better" than some unspecified "unnatural" alternative.

    Put those elements together and your argument for oppressing women reduces to "It is right and good because it is 'natural', and it is 'natural' because I (Jan) approve of it."

    The last step in your chain of excuses is to attempt to pass the buck to your God. That part of the argument goes "I (Jan) approve of it because it's my God's command, and I'm like a really loyal follower of my God. Don't blame me for oppressing women; my God made me do it!"

    Don't tell lies, Jan.

    Your attempt to split hairs there is despicable.

    If you say "I approve of men 'heading' over women" or "It is better/best if men 'head' over women" for whatever reason (e.g. because of a spurious argument that it is "natural" and therefore good and also required by your God), then you're endorsing that as the way things ought to be. If you weren't, you would say "My God commands that I 'head' my family, but I think that's wrong" or "I've been told it is 'natural' for me to 'head' over my wife, but I reject that and treat her as an equal, instead."

    Stop acting like a dishonest hack, Jan. At the very least, own your opinions. Be an adult. Don't pass the blame to your God or to a spurious idea of "nature" that you've invented to try to create an illusion of distance yourself between yourself and the opinions you advocate.

    You don't get to pretend that I'm the dishonest one, Jan. You're on the record. Anybody can go look.

    Stop being a dishonest hack.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2021
    James R, Feb 10, 2021
    #926
  10. James R

    James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    All of this needs some kind of argument to back it up, not just a repeated statement of faith.

    But Jan brings nothing.
     
    James R, Feb 10, 2021
    #927
  11. James R

    James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Please don't do that. It would just be descending down to his level. Also, bear in mind that he has now received several official warnings for trolling of just that type. Don't become a troll yourself. That's what he'd like.
     
    James R, Feb 10, 2021
    #928
  12. wegs

    wegs Matter and Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    Well, that's true.

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    wegs, Feb 10, 2021
    #929
  13. Beer w/Straw

    Beer w/Straw Transcendental Ignorance! Valued Senior Member

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    OK, I've been off here for a couple days and I just skimmed it and feel that Jan may be in a generational stuck.

    I mean this is the 21st century not the 1950's.
     
    Beer w/Straw, Feb 10, 2021
    #930
  14. Sarkus

    Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    Absolute garbage.

    It can certainly be caused by an intense dislike, as already explained, but prejudice can also be simply a learnt behaviour with no animosity, hatred or even dislike toward the group one is prejudice against. Certainly if you hate a group of people then you will almost certainly be prejudice against them in any number of ways, but just because A causes B doesn't mean B is always caused by A, or even requires A.

    Take ageism, for example - and the prejudice that older folk might face when looking for work: does the employer displaying such prejudice hate or intensely dislike old people? Or might they simply harbour unreasoned bias when they hire the 30-something instead of an equally (or more) qualified 60-something? Does the employer need to hate the idea of old people working for them? No, of course not. It's true that they might hate the idea of it, and that hate might fuel their prejudice. But it certainly need not always be the case. They might simply have had the idea instilled in them that it's not worth hiring people over 60, for example.

    So please stop speaking garbage.
     
    Sarkus, Feb 10, 2021
    #931
  15. James R

    James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    There's also the matter of unconscious bias.
     
    James R, Feb 11, 2021
    #932
  16. RainbowSingularity

    RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    my personal opinion is jan has had some things hard wired through childhood religious indoctrination processes.
    and ... like all of these things that are hard wired through childhood
    they inevitably have aspects of self Ego & perception attached to them in a seemingly hard-wired fashion

    while the casual reader may only interpret my personal opinion as being overtly condescending & derisive, keep in mind that same reader is incapable of engaging on such topics to illicit discourse, instead they pander to pre existing stereo typed profiles that they hold in thier mind for "archetypes" of people & types of peoples personal belief personality frame works.

    or as James puts it politely

    types, degrees, depths & cultural variants
     
    RainbowSingularity, Feb 11, 2021
    #933
  17. wegs

    wegs Matter and Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    It could be that Jan was indoctrinated as a kid, but most sexist behaviors (as well as racist, etc) are learned...and they could have blossomed from watching how his dad interacted with his mom, or how the men from his family of origin interacted with women, in general.

    I'll reserve any further comments though, since he's temp-banned right now.
     
    wegs, Feb 11, 2021
    #934
  18. Michael 345

    Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    You mean soldered hard wired like this

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    Michael 345, Feb 11, 2021
    #935
  19. Michael 345

    Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    Dave Alan comedian and the roles of men and women



    10 minutes

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    Michael 345, Feb 14, 2021
    #936
  20. Jan Ardena

    Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    It’s wrong to rape and kill has been the same for generations now. By your logic it is outdated.
    Do you believe that?
     
    Jan Ardena, Feb 14, 2021
    #937
  21. Jan Ardena

    Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Even if it is detrimental to her children, and society at large?
     
    Jan Ardena, Feb 14, 2021
    #938
  22. billvon

    billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Yep. And she gets the right to decide even if her work is advantageous to her children, and society at large.

    I am sure you agree with this at a fundamental level. Should you be allowed free speech, even if your misogynistic opinions are detrimental to society at large?
     
    billvon, Feb 14, 2021
    #939
  23. Sarkus

    Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    That's not what Bw/S's logic suggests at all.
    Hint: just because people think you have some outdated views does not mean that they think all your views are outdated, even if they were all views held in the 1950s.
     
    Sarkus, Feb 14, 2021
    #940
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