Is consciousness to be found in quantum processes in microtubules?

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience' started by Write4U, Sep 8, 2018.

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  1. James R

    James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    (continued...)

    By "values" do you just mean numbers?

    Fundamental elementary particles obviously are not numbers.

    What does "quanta of values" mean (or "value quanta")?

    I agree that we humans attach numbers that we call density, mass, atomic number etc. to atoms, and use those numerical values to describe them. But you're saying that atoms are "values". What does that mean? You can't hold a number. You can't eat numbers in your breakfast cereal. Physical particles aren't "just" numbers.

    I assumed that your "values" meant something more than mere numbers. But if it's just a fancy word for numbers, I think you'd be clearer if you just used the specific word you need: numbers.
    Does the atomic number of an atom have any meaning at all, "independent of humans altogether"? In whose mind is the concept of an atomic number, if not that of a human?
    Great! So you have established that human beings classify minerals in different ways, using various symbolic descriptions. That's not something I have argued against. Where to from there?
    Seriously, I don't think you do. You seem to struggle to tell the difference between objects and numbers associated with objects, for instance. You seem to struggle separating "symbolic descriptions of minerals" from minerals, for instance.
    No. I'm saying that you are making silly claims that the maps are the things they symbolise. Scientists are aware of the difference (with the possible exception of Max Tegmark and his followers, perhaps).
    You can quote the definition, but do you actually understand it?
    I suppose anything is possible, but that would be a very poor argument to try to make.
    Notice that I didn't say it did.

    I just wish you'd post something that would actually go some way to addressing the actual claims you keep making - the ones we're disagreeing about, rather than all this tangential fluff.
    Chaos theory has nothing to say about making physical reality out of patterns or anything like that.
    Apparently, you missed my main point there, again.
    A crystal is not a pattern.
    Is that part of the Creed of Tegmark? You feel the need to avow your faith in Tegmark, regularly?
    This is what you should be trying to support. So far, nada.
    ??? (All sorts of issues here.)
    As far as I'm aware, Alzheimer's disease is associated with the growth of amaloid plaques in the brain, which impede the correct functioning of the neural network.

    It could well be that, in the process, some microtubules are destroyed/damaged as a sort of collateral damage?

    It would be to misattribute causation to assert that memory loss is due to the microtubule damage, since memory in the brain seems to occur at the level of neurons, not microtubules.
     
    James R, Sep 20, 2021
    #2121

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  3. exchemist

    exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    A mineral species is rather the same as a chemical species, viz. a specific (a word that comes from the same root as "species"

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    ) chemical composition. In neither sense is anything implied about analogies with biology, least of all evolution.

    This seems to be yet another instance of Write4U's chronic habit of taking terms from one context, using them in another unrelated one, and then drawing a series of unwarranted inferences, cf. "function", "potential", etc.

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    exchemist, Sep 20, 2021
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  5. James R

    James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Of course.
    Yes.

    Write4U seems to think that reading the first couple of paragraphs of a wikipedia page on a topic (often a definition of a term, or similar) is sufficient to give him a good understanding of the entire topic, including the skills needed to apply that knowledge to a completely different context.

    It's like "Wow! I just found out about point density functions! I'm sure that I can apply those to the topics of microtubules and the Tegmark faith context, because they sound really cool!" Never mind that nobody else has ever applied point density functions to either of those topics.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2021
    James R, Sep 20, 2021
    #2123

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  7. Write4U

    Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    I guess you do not believe in abiogenesis then. No connection between minerals and biology. OK that solves the problem once and for all. Well done!!!
    Tell that to Robert Hazen.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2021
    Write4U, Sep 20, 2021
    #2124
  8. Write4U

    Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    None of the above is worth responding to . I am going to use your strategy of fracturing everything without trying to see the underlying principles that correspond to apparently unconnected phenomena.

    You are maintaining a belief system that proposes "irreducible complexity", which is a false assumption.

    Everything past, present, and future "was", "is", and "will be" a product of "evolution by natural selection".

    You can slice it and dice it and anthropomorphize it, but;

    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.”
    (Philip K Dick)
     
    Write4U, Sep 20, 2021
    #2125
  9. Write4U

    Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    None of the above is worth responding to . I am going to use your strategy of fracturing everything without trying to see the underlying principles that correspond to apparently unconnected phenomena.

    You are maintaining a belief system that proposes "irreducible complexity", which is a false assumption.

    Everything past, present, and future "was", "is", and "will be" a product of "evolution by natural selection".

    You can slice it and dice it and anthropomorphize it.

    All physical phenomena have evolved from 3 elementary particles with different "flavors" (values).

    Are you going to argue with my use of the term "different flavors" by stating that term is reserved for ice cream? That's about the level of this discourse. I refuse to partake in such.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2021
    Write4U, Sep 20, 2021
    #2126
  10. Write4U

    Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Oh, I have a very clear understanding of the difference between natural phenomena and their human symbolic representation.

    Question is ; Do you have a full and complete understanding of the definition of human "symbolization" of phenomenal existence in nature?

    Ok, let's have a look shall we?

    Crystals: The Form

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    The colored atom in the upper left corner is an impurity in the structure of this diamond. Impurities such as this cause the different colors of diamonds.

    http://www.smithsonianeducation.org/educators/lesson_plans/minerals/minerals_crystals.html#

    Patterns in nature;

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    Examples of patterns in nature, including the golden spiral, the golden ratio and fractal self-similar structures. From left to right, (a) a nautilus shell, a galaxy, a sunflower, a desert plant; (b) a storm formation, a fern bud, an ocean wave, a finger print; (c) fractal properties in a branched tree, a leaf, river bed formation, a cast of human lungs. (Online version in colour.)

    https://www.researchgate.net/figure...l-the-golden-ratio-and-fractal_fig2_330531039

    It appears that you do not have a full understanding of what the word "pattern" symbolizes.

    Patterns in nature

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    Natural patterns form as wind blows sand in the dunes of the Namib Desert. The crescent shaped dunes and the ripples on their surfaces repeat wherever there are suitable conditions.

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    Patterns of the veiled chameleon, Chamaeleo calyptratus, provide camouflage and signal mood as well as breeding condition.

    Patterns in nature
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patterns_in_nature

    The brain receives and processes sensory electrochemical data patterns which it translates into subjective experience of patterns, such as shapes, colors, sounds, etc.

    All of human experiential reality consists of observation and translation of expressed patterns in a very narrow range of the totality of existent patterns in nature.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2021
    Write4U, Sep 20, 2021
    #2127
  11. Write4U

    Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Another one of your anthropomorphisms.

    Numbers and letters are human symbols for particular sets of values used in measurement of universal spatial and temporal values. All spacetime phenomena have an intrinsic value or sets of values.

    Why Do Particles Have Flavors?
    https://www.livescience.com/18141-wacky-physics-particle-flavors.html#

    These "values" existed since the beginning of the universe and will exist long after humans have disappear in the mists of history, along with their symbolic representations of natural properties and associated intrinsic and/or causal values. And it will make no difference whatsoever.
    The Universe doesn't care about our mathematics. We care about Universal mathematics.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2021
    Write4U, Sep 21, 2021
    #2128
  12. James R

    James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    No, I don't think so. For instance, you've provided another example of your confusion in the same post.

    I told you "crystals are not patterns". Your first response is to quote something that starts with this:

    "Most minerals occur naturally as crystals. Every crystal has an orderly, internal pattern of atoms..."​

    See how it says that crystals have patterns? Nowhere does it say that crystals are patterns.

    Your brain seems to just automatically ignore any such distinction, skipping over it as if the difference in wording isn't important. It's like your brain won't let you see any difference, for some reason. Probably your Tegmarkian indoctrination, I'm guessing.

    I asked you a question. I'm not anthropomorphising anything. Why didn't you attempt to answer the question I asked you?

    Define "value".

    If a "value" is not just a number, what is it?

    If you cannot explain what you mean in clear terms, then it's just pointless bullshit word salad. Don't you realise that?
    We can't have a discussion about these "values" you're so keen on until you explain what they are. In the meantime, everything you write about "universal values" is useless fluff.
     
    James R, Sep 21, 2021
    #2129
  13. James R

    James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Here are some other questions you ignored, Write4U.

    I think it's time you tried to address some of them, don't you?

    * Do you know what a counterfactual is?
    * Is it important to your arguments about microtubules that they operate according to a completely new kind of "Darwinian evolution"?
    * Can you point to one thing I have wrote where I insist that humans have unnatural abilities which cannot be found elsewhere in the universe?
    * By "values" do you just mean numbers?
    * What does "quanta of values" mean (or "value quanta")?
    * Does the atomic number of an atom have any meaning at all, "independent of humans altogether"? In whose mind is the concept of an atomic number, if not that of a human?

    And those are just the direct questions I asked you, which you ignored. You also completely failed to engage with any of the substantive criticisms of your position that I posted in my previous two posts. Why?
     
    James R, Sep 21, 2021
    #2130
  14. Write4U

    Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    You've got to be kidding. I won't even bother to answer that.
    You are becoming a rather mixed up pattern yourself.
    Yes you are.
    I did. You must have missed it in the part you decided to ignore.
    I never said it is not a number, You invented that error all by yourself. Values can be symbolized with numbers, they can also be symbolized by other description of an intrinsic excellence.
    It is a generic term addressing the inherent causal potential of an object or a set of objects regardless of origin, that can interact with other "value potentials" to produce a new "value result"

    Fundamentally, all causally deterministic processes depend on;

    "causal input value" --> deterministic mathematical function --> "resulting output value"

    Clear enough?

    Humans have assigned different symbolic unit names and numbers dependent on their utility to scientific observation and algebraic codification. In science "quality" and "quantity" of various universal phenomena are symbolically expressed in specific units of specific values.
    I didn't know that I needed to explain this simple generic equation. It seems rather obvious to me if you leave humans out of the equation.
    I await your response with bated breath. I hope you can force yourself to only consider the inherent mathematically patterned nature of the universe, which allows our human mind to understand most of the universal processes by means of symbolically representing universal mathematically guided deterministic processes.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2021
    Write4U, Sep 21, 2021
    #2131
  15. Write4U

    Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Have at it.

    * Do you know what a counterfactual is?* Yes.
    * Is it important to your arguments about microtubules that they operate according to a completely new kind of "Darwinian evolution"?* They don't, you made that up.
    * Can you point to one thing I have wrote where I insist that humans have unnatural abilities which cannot be found elsewhere in the universe?* The proper term is "I have written". And nowhere have I advanced such a fantasy
    * By "values" do you just mean numbers?* See above
    * What does "quanta of values" mean (or "value quanta")?* A quantum with a specific excellence or value.
    * Does the atomic number of an atom have any meaning at all, "independent of humans altogether"? In whose mind is the concept of an atomic number, if not that of a human? * Let's see if it does.
    Hence every atom has its own unique set of values which sets it apart from other atoms, regardless of human presence.

    Humans are not required for any natural non-human phenomenon to have causal potentials. This is just one more fabricated subjective interpretation that you are attributing to me.
    Frankly, I am beginning to doubt that you can even imagine a universe without humans.
    I know, it's a stretch.
    AFAIK, you have not made substantive criticisms of my position other than dismissal without any justification for that dismissal and accusing me of being some raving nutcase. In my book that is NOT substantive criticism.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2021
    Write4U, Sep 21, 2021
    #2132
  16. Write4U

    Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Engram (neuropsychology)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engram_(neuropsychology)#

    Engrams are acquired by the phosphorylation of MT which locks the "memory" data for long periods of time, whereas synaptic memories are of short duration.

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    FIGURE 1:
    Orientation of microtubules in CNS neurons. A group of neurons (cortical or hippocampal) showing apical dendrites, basal dendrites, and axons. Insets show microtubule orientation in dendrites and axons. Microtubules are composed of stable (purple) and dynamic (pink) regions. Dynamic regions undergo polymerization and depolymerization, termed dynamic instability. Arrows indicate that microtubules are oriented antiparallel in dendrites (plus and minus ends distal) and parallel in axons (plus ends distal).

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5221613/

    Author Summary
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3297561/

     
    Write4U, Sep 21, 2021
    #2133
  17. Write4U

    Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    20,072
    The model of local axon homeostasis - explaining the role and regulation of microtubule bundles in axon maintenance and pathology
    Ines Hahn, André Voelzmann, Yu-Ting Liew, Beatriz Costa-Gomes, and Andreas Prokop

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    Introduction

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    Fig. 1
    Specific properties of axons. Axons during the growth cone stage are shown in (a) and after synaptic maturation in (b), differing primarily in certain stage-specific specialisations including growth cones, synapses, electrical properties and glial interactions (here myelination [389, 392]). The core machinery in the axon shaft can be expected to be similar at both stages: parallel continuous bundles of extended but discontinuous MTs run all along axons serving as a structural backbone (see Fig. Fig.2),2), a transport highway for axonal trafficking (driven by motor proteins), and a source for 'off-track' MTs contributing to morphogenetic processes including branch formation, directed axon growth and synapse formation/plasticity (green, orange, blue curved arrows); MT bundles are interspersed with longitudinal actin trails [18, 24], continuous networks of (smooth) endoplasmic reticulum [44, 393], and other membranous organelles including mitochondria [45]; axonal membranes display regularly spaced periodic rings of cortical actin [20, 21], a high number of ion-specific channel proteins and transporters to conduct nerve impulses [394], as well as adhesions with external structures including fasciculating parallel axons (not shown), glial processes [395] and synaptic partner cells [396]; a degree of independence from cell-body derived proteins is provided by local translation machinery [397–399] or supply from surrounding glia cells (not shown; [400–403]). Note that the axon diameter in the region between glia cells in B (referred to as Node of Ranvier) usually has a much smaller diameter than the rest of the axon [1]

    The importance of microtubule bundles for axon biology
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6842214/

    continued.........
     
    Write4U, Sep 22, 2021
    #2134
  18. Write4U

    Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    20,072
    .....continued

    Actin and Microtubules in Cell Motility: Which One is in Control?
    Sandrine Etienne-Manneville,
    First published: 04 June 2004
    https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1600-0854.2004.00196.x
    Citations: 221

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    PDF

    Abstract
    Microtubules and Actin Cooperate to Polarize
    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1600-0854.2004.00196.x
     
    Write4U, Sep 22, 2021
    #2135
  19. James R

    James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Write4U,
    Do you agree with me that crystals are not patterns, then? If your answer is "no", then you should have bothered thinking carefully about your response the first time.
    Ah, an insult. Do you feel better about yourself, now?
    Unable to explain or justify your claims, you settle for pointless repetition.
    So, when you write "value", you just mean a number? Yes or no? I ask because you seem confused.
    Give me an example of a "value" that can be symbolised with a number and also with a description of an intrinsic excellence.

    What is an "intrinsic excellence"? Please define that, while you're at it.
    Sounds like more word salad.

    Define "causal potential" and give at least one specific example of a "causal potential".
    Define "value potential" and give at least one specific example of a "value potential".
    Define "value result" and give at least one specific example of a "value result".

    If you feel the need to use terms like "value potential" when all you really mean is a number with units, then that's obfuscation, in my opinion. Is there more to it? Am I missing something?
    No.

    Define "causally deterministic processes" please.
    Define "causal input value" and give at least one specific example of a causal input value.
    Define "deterministic mathematical function" and give at least one specific example of one.
    Define "Output value" and give at least one specific example of an "output value".

    When you've done all that, pick at least one "causally deterministic process" and explain to me what the "causal input value" of the process is, what "deterministic mathematical function" is involved and what the "resulting output value" of the process is. Be specific.
    What are the units of a quality? Please give one specific example of a quality that has units.

    Define "algebraic codification" and show how it applies to a specific "symbolic unit name and number".

    You write "specific units of specific values". I take it, therefore, that your claim is that "value" have units. Is a value just a number with units, or something else, then?

    I keep asking. You keep failing to specific what you mean. I think you don't actually have a clear idea about what you mean when you talk about "values".
    I've studied science and this is the first time I've seen your "simple generic equation", despite the fact that you claim it is something well known "in science". It's not even an equation, as far as I can tell. Equations always contain an equals (=) sign, in my experience.
    I don't care what seems obvious to you. I'm trying to understand what you mean. I can't read your mind. I can only read your words.
    I don't see any need to force myself to do that, so far, especially as your terms are so vague and ill-defined at this point. Maybe it will make more sense if you can ever manage to dredge up some working definitions of the terms you're using. Let's hope we see some progress on that in your next reply.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2021
    James R, Sep 23, 2021
    #2136
  20. James R

    James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    It seemed to be what you were telling me in one of your responses, so I didn't "make it up". So, standard evolutionary theory applies to microtubules. Good. One less thing to worry about.
    Be careful if you want to start getting high and mighty correcting my grammar, spelling or whatever. I will be sure to return the favour if you really want to go down that path. What happened there, in case you are wondering, is that I wrote a couple of different versions of that sentence. One said "Can you point to one thing I wrote where..." and the other said "Can you point to one thing I have written where...". I settled on "wrote", but accidentally failed to delete the word "have" in making that edit. I didn't spend a lot of time proof-reading, as you might be able to tell. And even if I had noticed the error, I might have left it, figuring that you'd understand my meaning anyway.

    Do you think you can agree to be a little less prissy about the whole grammar nazi thing, would you prefer that we both correct each other's typos, grammatical mistakes etc. from now on? Let me know.

    I quoted you.
    Using the undefined word "value" in your definition of "quanta of values" doesn't help me much. And now you have also introduced the idea of a "specific excellence", also undefined so far. I'll wait for your response to my previous post before commenting further on this.
    The "values" you quoted in support of this appear to be numbers (some of which have units). You have not yet established that these numbers that atoms have exist independently of human presence.

    On the other hand, I don't think you really understand what I'm getting at with this particular objection, so it's probably easier just to drop it for now. There are bigger fish to fry.
    I don't know what that means. Maybe after you next post...
    Why?

    I have no problem with a universe without humans. Humans have barely been around for 1 million years. The universe is 13 billion years old. Mostly, the universe has got along just fine without humans.
    Nonsense. I have substantially criticised your confusion about the difference between a mathematical concept and a physical thing. I have also substantially criticised your empty claims that microtubules are the seat of consciousness.

    In the latter case, it's not that you're necessarily wrong, it's just that you believe you have good evidence for your claim for some reason, but you're yet to show me anything that actually establishes your central claim, or even supports it to any substantive degree.

    I have been very clear about why I disagree with at least one of your heroes, Max Tegmark, and his "mathematical universe" idea. But I also think that he would freely admit that he has no proof of that idea, whereas you seem to think you have some.[/quote]
     
    James R, Sep 23, 2021
    #2137
  21. James R

    James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Is this your idea, or it is a statement from the authors of the paper you cited?
     
    James R, Sep 23, 2021
    #2138
  22. Write4U

    Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    20,072
    No. crystals are dense patterns of matter.
    Tit for tat
    the continual misinterpretation of my posts forces me to repeat them from different perspectives, in the hope that eventually the gist of my posts will be understood
    No, and without any confusion "value" indicates an inherent potential or excellence that may become expressed.
    mass/gravity
    Potential = That which may become reality (see dictionary)
    Interesting use of the word "salad"
    "mass"
    "gravity"
    "warped spacetime"
    Yes, numbers do not exist in reality, they are human symbolic representations of inherent physical values or excellence.
    Determinism?
    No
    Deterministic algorithm
    The entire human symbolic representation of measurement of natural phenomena.
    a + b = c
    As countlessly explained previously, values can be identified and codified with a host of human symbolic representations. I believe it is called "physics".
    Because the universe does not symbolize anything, humans do.
    Show me a "=" sign in the universe. It's a human symbolic representation of an implied result. It does not exist except as an abstract anthropomorphized symbol.
    This is a simple generic equation "input --> function --> output", symbolized as "a + b = c"
    No, you are not trying at all. You are dissecting my posts with brutal insistence on convention. You are not trying to look at things from different creative perspectives at all.
    All my working definitions may be found in the common dictionary, if not in scientific jargon, like "spooky action at a distance".

    This is the best I can do and it is a hell of a lot better than most of the drivel and endless bickering and ad hominem that is rampant here.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2021
    Write4U, Sep 23, 2021
    #2139
  23. Write4U

    Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    It is a statement from a bona fide research scientist.
    Stuart Hameroff specializes in research on Alzheimer's disease which causes "loss of memory" (microtubules catastrophe)

    Center for Consciousness Studies University of Arizona, Anesthesiology
    Summary:
    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/03/120309103701.htm
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2021
    Write4U, Sep 23, 2021
    #2140
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