Browns sue Abercrombie for "White" Image

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by prozak, Jun 18, 2003.

  1. Mystech Adult Supervision Required Registered Senior Member

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    Yes, but what genes spacificaly is it that make up "race"? How deep does it go? Is it nothing more than the same skin color and a range of facial structures, or would you imply that there are other factors which would make one race better than another?

    In the modern world, though race is an increasingly inacurate determination of "who some one is" or "where they come from" There are many people now who have never been to the land where their ansestors came from, and to assume that a person who looks like a member of another land or culture even remotely embrases the culture or values of that people.

    This is completely rediculous. Don't deny people their individuality simply because you are too lazy to abandon your own pre-conseived notions.

    So do you mean to propose that there is a distinctly and inherently unique "Black" mind and "White" mind and "Arab" mind, and a seperate mind for every race? Again, don't deny people their individualilty, just because you say that they are a part of a group does not mean that it is truely so.

    What do I care who he is? His theory is bunk. Following this logic eskimos should be the most angry and aggresive people in the world, yet we really don't see this, do we? Also, doesn't extreem heat and dehydration make someone cranky? So evolutionarily speaking Affricans and Middle easterners are also biologicaly aggresive peoples!

    Because there is no evidence for it, nor is it a theory to explain a phenomenon. He has started with the conclusion and then made the justification: whites are biologically aggressive people. Yet this conclusion was not based on observation, instead he built the theory just so that he could set the conclusion on top of it. It's a clearly biased and unscientific theory, and really is just laughable.

    This is called the fundamental attribution error. That is, a person's tendency to blame their own failings, or negative attributes, on external circumstances (which act as a justification) however, when other people fail, or display negative attributes, it is because they are inherently bad people. So, when whites are aggressive, it is because they are a biologically angry people, when Arabs are angry, though, it is with good reasons from external influence.

    Well thank you for that. And yes, you are right, I recognise that there are many others who's situation I could not be payed to be put in. I don't have it so bad as some people, but still I feel that I'm worse off than I should be.

    This line of thinking has always made me chuckle a bit.

    First off, there are many ways in which one can tell that another person is gay. Yes, the most obvious is sexual relations with a member of the same sex. Any act toward another male in public which displays that you two are somehow more affectionate, or just closer than it is standard for two heterosexual friends to be will tip someone off.

    Aside from that, there is a sort of homosexual subculture, homosexuals will often just act and dress differently than heterosexuals, these kinds of variations can be seen in just about any minority group, of course these can not be attributed to any unified culture. As far as these traits go, though it's observer error to think that one will always display these traits. If you define a homosexual as one who displays these secondary sub cultural traits, then it is only the people who display such traits that you will label as homosexuals. Those who do not display these traits or act "straight" (A funny way of thinking about it, because I act "Straight" but it's not an act for me, it's just how I am), so those homosexuals which do not display the traits you are looking for will simply fly under your radar and be labeled as just another heterosexual.
     
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  3. Jihad_AlifLamLamHah Registered Senior Member

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    Mystech :
    No thats it , physical differences that are blood-related , dealing with the forming of the body/skull etc .

    It has nothing to do with better than another in general , it all depends on how a characteristics functions with that person , what advantages-disadvantages it has . Say you need to be to reach some high place with your arms , and you're a little Chineze thats a bitch ....... but thats all . There is no evidence of linkage with intellect or such , and Im not advocating that relations like these exist . Anyways , they're all not irellevant anyways because like I said , social factors go beyond about everything .

    Indeed , but has this to do with historical value of the knowledge ? I care to know where I am from , dont you ? That doesnt mean that I uphold some culture or not , it just means that I can track down facts , thats all . Assumptions like you propose arent at place at all , what peoples make out of it is not relevant to the scientific value .

    What pre-conseivied notions ? Im not denying anybody's individuality , are you denying their sociology ? Mostly man is formed by group , not the other way around . We're not dealing with individual concepts here , I just gave you an example of how its handy to have knoweldge of race from a sociological point of view .

    Not at all , why are you twisting my words like this , do you merely look to disagree ? I am saying that peoples have in their head the idea of a black race and white race that influences their minds in how they act , not that they have a specific "black" mind . Such things you point to are merely cultural etc , not racial . Brain has no racial relevance as far as I am aware .

    This is really a horrific refutation , how the hell would your Eskimo-proposel prove that he is wrong ? How long have eskimo's lived in those circumstances . Are you aware of their culture ? As for not seeing this , I dont think both of us have seen anything when it comes to aggressive or non-aggressive eskimo's , what are you eskimologue ?

    As far sun , cranky isnt the same as aggressive . The effects of heat and sun are becoming lazy and laid back , does that mean everybody in the sun has to be like that ? No , it just shows a direction , there are so many other factors that are decisive .

    How about the barbarians ? I say there's no better evidence for caucasian aggression than them , especially as they are so closely linked to the wild men that is called the original Indo-European . So it is very well based on observation , your problem with it lays that it isnt based on actual observation but guess what ......... peoples civilized , social factors become more important than the usual grauning and scratching . This was 8.000 years ago and went on into Christianity ....

    If you have missed the fact that the caucasians have won the aggression-race , then you must have been living on mars . I think it is your bias that simply cant have such a thing admitted .....

    You seem to have missed the point that many Arabs are caucasian , first of all . Secondly , I have not blamed TODAYS white people for their aggression to be natural , because TODAY social factors weigh much much more , while 6000 years ago everybody was semi-grauning and just basically running around like wildmen .

    But more importantly , you are bringin in here some cause of Arab problems ........ fundamental attribution error ? Get real man , you obviously have no knowledge of Arab history , there hasnt been any freedom last hundred years , dont come talking about some self-failure , Arabs didnt have a chance to self-fail .......

    For instance peoples from Iraq , or Egypt , or Palestine ....

    I know another person here on sciforums enlighted me on this some time ago , it is exactly what I mean , only that with gay's the identificatio-symbol becomes sexual , while with others it may be their block or their money or some other status they are willing to take . But I do think that with gays its oftenly very deep , compared to the mainstream .

    The thing is I dont think an observer should be able to lable your sexuality based on your behaviour as an individual , for instance the way you walk talk etc . Sure peoples lable it as heterosexual , you might say ..... but heterosexual is so normalized in their minds that they dont lable it anymore at all . Sure there is overly heterosexual behaviour as well , but why cant there be non-sexual behaviour when you are not dealing with sexual activities ? Thats my point basically .
     
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  5. Frencheneesz Amazing Member Registered Senior Member

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    "Go to Bulgaria get an average job there and see how money is a way of doling out liberties to those who contribute . Maybe its the contribution part ...... do they have the same liberties in contributing like lets say in Belgium ? Why not ?"

    Thats the countries problem, its not money's fault. Maybe they'd be better off being communist, who knows. But my point still stands that money doesn't oppress people, people do. It also might be the contribution part. I wouldn't suppose people in bulgaria have as much education as people do here; so probably they don't have the knowlege to contribute more for the amount of work they put in. As you should know, you don't get paid for work, you get paid for the product of your work (unless you're a lucky self-employee).

    They live in crappy countries, I don't suppose that plays into the equation. Or the corrupt government?
     
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  7. otheadp Banned Banned

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    i don't like multi-cultural and multi-ethnic societies.
    ppl grow up with identity crisees (sp),
    there is no feeling of unity what so ever,
    peoples' cultures and traditions are marginalized.. and become not important at all.
    and then there's the political correctness bullshit. you can't say anything cause you might unintentionally offend someone.

    i wish i was born and raised in a monocultural , mono-ethnic society.. somewhere in south america maybe.
     
  8. Jihad_AlifLamLamHah Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    397
    Dont want to get too political but I think its quite

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    how Zahyunin suffer from a mono-ethnic viewpoint , yet claim to be super-multiethnical (lol)

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  9. Jihad_AlifLamLamHah Registered Senior Member

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    397
    Frencheneesz

    Thats the countries problem, its not money's fault.

    Yes this is true , ofcourse money itself is not the problem , in the end its just paper . Its peoples use/system/understanding of it that can make money a problematic factor of a persons life (it always is but to some more than others) . Ofcourse all this goes in the context of capitalism , and that was what Im pointing at . Thats the system where money-talks , and when you are stuck silent , more perhaps than the countries fault , is the system the country is in . And this has more to blaim than just Bulgaria .

    It also might be the contribution part. I wouldn't suppose people in bulgaria have as much education as people do here; so probably they don't have the knowlege to contribute more for the amount of work they put in. As you should know, you don't get paid for work, you get paid for the product of your work

    But as you know the ammount of knowledge/education is irellavant to the the total factor that causes low productivity and a failing economy . It may do so on a local level , but internationally is how these things work these days . As a matter of fact the wannabe-communists we have known in the east had a very decent educational system , in many ways even superior to that of the west . Thing is however , the market asks and peoples can deliver or not . What everybody asked didnt fit the communist picture , and didnt have that much potency after the fall . For instance , its great you are professor this and that , but what we need is a financial-manager this and that ........ and Bulgaria didnt have any . Ofcourse Imperialsm/Globalization comes into play as well , and things get exploited . I mean if it works its not in the interest of the buck to fix this or that , correct ? Thats why it sux , at least those are some of the reasons .......

    They live in crappy countries, I don't suppose that plays into the equation. Or the corrupt government?

    The $-system is a reason , corrupt governments as well ....oftenly the 2 go together . Ofcourse this everything in the historical context of a nation , surely capitalism works GREAT in Luxembourg .....
     
  10. Frencheneesz Amazing Member Registered Senior Member

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    739
    Jihad_AlifLamLamHah:

    Ok, well since you think capitalism as it stands is not the way to go, what would you suggest as an alternative or a modification to capitalism?
     
  11. otheadp Banned Banned

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    5,853
    all my life i've lived in multi ethnic countries...and it really sucks to tell u the truth
     
  12. Jihad_AlifLamLamHah Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    397
    French , it is not capitalism itself , but what position it holds within the respective society . What i would suggest is to bring back capitalism from a necesarry result of todays democracy , to an economical method which is it . The first step would be then state-capitalism , as in the state holds authority and consciously applies the capitalistic system there where result cannot be planned succesfully . My only issue with capitalism is that it cannot become authority itself , society should not depend on economy , economy should depend on society .

    Ot : I assume you desire then to be in such a mono-ethnical country as part of the obvious ethnicity ? I can understand how an ethnical-valuing person would feel neglection amongst in a multi society , can you imagine how a non-ethnical valuer of another ethnicity would feel in a mono-ethnical society ? Then multi-ethnicity might appear as something very satisfactory .
     
  13. Frencheneesz Amazing Member Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    739
    otheadp:

    If you've lived in a multi-ethnic society all your life, how can you compare it to a mono-ethnic society. How do you know it doesn't suck for other reasons?

    Jihad_AlifLamLamHah:

    "My only issue with capitalism is that it cannot become authority itself."

    So? Whats the problem there? Do you want capitalsim to become an authority?

    "society should not depend on economy , economy should depend on society"

    As of now, they are interdepedent - as many things are. On the issue of State-capitalism, That is the first step toward... what? Its the first step toward communism I know that.
     
  14. Jihad_AlifLamLamHah Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    397
    French :
    So? Whats the problem there? Do you want capitalsim to become an authority?

    No , the problem is that it IS an authority . Capitalism should be a method not an authority . Money should be used not listened to .

    As of now, they are interdepedent - as many things are. On the issue of State-capitalism, That is the first step toward... what? Its the first step toward communism I know that.

    Yes they are interdependant , I meant this as a figure of speach and I am sure you know it . What my concern is who has authority , do we have certain available positions because it is in out capitalistic interest to have so , or do we apply a capitalistic method that brings out these available positions because it is in society's best interest ..... thats the point .

    As for communism , I dont think 19th century dialectics is gonna do us any good . That doesnt mean that state-capitalism can function in other dialectical or political philosophies . As long as there isnt a world-government , there is world-capitalism , so to survive that you need state-capitalism . Only then you can actually have serious authority within your own national economy .
     
  15. The Duke Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    37
    You purple activist whiners get on my nerves. For thousands of years, purples sold purples to other purples. One day whitey shows up and buys some purples from the purples in order to sell to whitey, and then decides to ban the practise entirely (despite the fact that the purples continued with it). Yet the purples conveniently forget about thousands of years of their own history in order to beat evil whitey over the head with their own highly reduced version of it. Why? Because, in comparison to the rest, you purples have failed in society. Not only do you need a scapegoat to blame in order to sooth your massive egos, but you're gonna take that scapegoat for all it's got - like parasites. I get very BORED of hearing about how 'if it wasn't for whitey, the purples would be so much better off...' Really? By who's standards are we comparing the plight of purples? By whitey's standards of course. Purples would probably still be running around with spears in Purpulashia if it weren't for whitey. If you don't want to fit in with the whitey you've demonised so much, that's your problem. However, if you don't, then I know where you can stick your purple food stamps alright!

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  16. otheadp Banned Banned

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    french: it could potentially suck, but for other reasons

    jihad: if a person is born into a multi-ethnic society and lives there all his life, and his parents are born in such a society too, they won't be losing something they never had. they'll be used to diversity.

    here in toronto ppl are "canadian" which means "diverse" (at least in toronto). many people are 3rd generation immigrants that know little of their herritage. they can't miss something they never experienced.

    for me personally, i get really frustrated that i can't express myself cause i might offend somebody. i was fired once because i said something to a "canadian" woman (innocently) which in english sounds very rude, but in russian it's not rude at all.

    all the incidents with culture shock and the political correctness is what makes me wanna live in a mono-ethnic society. or at least a place that's like a "melting pot" where immigrants adopt the local customs
     
  17. Mystech Adult Supervision Required Registered Senior Member

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    So you'd rather think inside the box, as it were? My opinion is that multiculturalism is helpful in that it serves to provide the members of the society with many reference points from witch to look at issues, and as such promotes a more dynamic way of handling problems.
     
  18. Mystech Adult Supervision Required Registered Senior Member

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    3,938
    So you'd like to live in a "melting pot" society where immigrants adopt the native culture. . . yet you are angry that you were fired for issuing what amounted to an insult in Canadian culture, but not in Russian culture (which I assume is your own)? Isn't that a little contradictory? Aren't you just saying that you'd like people to bend to your own will and arbitrarily make allowances for all your actions, while you bitch about how you have to walk on egg shells?

    Just out of curiosity, what did you say to that woman that got you fired?
     
  19. otheadp Banned Banned

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    5,853
    i was working as a security guard....the woman sat on the stairs to eat. i had to tell her to get outta there so i said "why don't you sit in the food court at a table like a human being, it's more comfortable".
    so she told my supervisor that i called her an animal or something like that.


    i'm not angry. i'm just frustrated.
    i dont want that woman to "bend to my will". i just wish she understood what i was saying. she was right to complain about me, i guess.
    i told her that in russian it doesn't sound insulting at all but she said "no, you just called me an animal, dont bullshit me about culture shock".

    when there's 1 reference point then everything is clear. now i have so many reference points, i'm confused. i don't know what's good or bad anymore. my morals, ethics and upbringing are constantly being challanged by all this "wonderful diversity"
     
  20. Mystech Adult Supervision Required Registered Senior Member

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    Hmm, well I'd have to agree that that's quite a bit of over-reacting on her part. . . to be honest I don't know much about Canadian culture, I just sort of assumed that they were like Americans only without guns, but I'd say that it may not be a cultural so much as a personal issue with her. What you said makes perfect sence to me, and doesn't seem terably insulting. Nothing to lose your job over, to be certain. I've got to admit, you were robbed!


    But when there is only one way to look at things like morality and only one real set of social expectatoins things are too static, and usualy people become over dependent on the idea that they are doing things the right way. Without sufficient amounts of deviating view points you risk Groupthink and Hubris, an entire culture can end up living in it's own little oblivious bubble, and end up being complete social retards. Yes, it can be challenging to adapt to, because you do have to question your own beliefs and standards, and now and again you do have to make an effort to understand where someone is comming from, but I think the benefits of that are well worth the fustration that they may cause.
     
  21. otheadp Banned Banned

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    5,853
    but that's the thing. ignorance is bliss... and bliss is what it's all about.

    i'd rather be happy and ignorant than knowledgable and miserable.
    see my post in the "war on philosophy" thread
     
  22. and2000x Guest

    You are in error, the people who built the pyramids were white. The Afrocentric fallacy that Egyptians were black is still being propagated to this day.


    Actually, the Eskimos were ruthless enough to drive the Vikings out of America and parts of Greenland.
     
  23. Jihad_AlifLamLamHah Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    397
    You are in error, the people who built the pyramids were white. The Afrocentric fallacy that Egyptians were black is still being propagated to this day.

    Oh my God , do people like you still exist ?

    What proof are you bringing in for this joke ? Dont say facial structure........PLEASE

    Tell me , who else were white ? Tell us all about it
     

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