Crumbling the Foundations of Christianity

He should wager his soul, Emerald

That way, he can say that you are the antichrist, and avoid one of the more perplexing issues ever dodged here at Exosci.

What about the "Millionaire" scenario? I caught a few minutes sometime recently and saw a guy walk with the cash after he saw the question. Some days, that's too easy a call to make.

thanx,
Tiassa

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

 

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

Tiassa,

He probably considers us <i>both</i> to be antichrists, but I doubt that he assigns either of us the distinction of being <i>the</i> AntiChrist.

Regarding the Final Jeopardy question, a significant clue lies in Revelations 1:18:

<font color="red">I <i>am</i> he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.</font>

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

Well, if this were a different game show, I would ask Tony whether he wants what is behind door number one or door number two. If he isn't looking for hell and death, then why does he follow the guy who holds the keys to that door? I just don't get it.

Emerald

 

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

You are somewhat accurate here, I've only read a hundred or so of your posts.
As far as your BS-meter goes, when's the last time you had it calibrated?
It could be reading backwards and you'd never know.

Just because I mentioned that I was taking Pascal's wager in a way, doesn't mean that my faith is based on Pascal's wager.
It isn't.

You will.
If I'm dead and in hell, I would want the "guy who holds the keys to that door" to open the door so I can get out.

BTW, "antichrist" means "against the anointing," specifically the anointing of the Holy Spirit.
If that is you, then you say so.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

Dangerously Laughable

One of the things that cracks me up about religionists is that they resent the idea that a person doesn't need to run to God to make sure they're still doing OK. Which is strange, because if God would open his office door and take a few meetings, he might be worried about the state of the company.

But, Tony, alas ... you peg the meter. Like your first response to the Definition of a Cult ... I had to rebuild the thing to accommodate a new high-end gradient: Dangerously Laughable.

The judges aren't conferring. They're rolling on the floor. That's a mighty loud buzzer and harsh red X across the screen of your 17-inch-diagonal life. It's real simple: If the answer is "Jesus is the Way," then what, pray tell, is the bloody question?

You never know. It could be the Greatest Rave in the Universe. In that sense, Hell would be never being able to come down from Ecstasy.

This from a guy who has admitted he doesn't know what we're talking about when we say "antichrist". You're a character, Tony. I'll admit that. You are, indeed, a character, and a poorly-written one at that.

--Tiassa

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

 

Tony,

According to the Blue Letter Bible site, this is the meaning of "antichrist":

<font color="blue">500 antichristos {an-tee'-khris-tos}

from 473 and 5547; TDNT - 9:493,1322; n m

AV - antichrist 5; 5

1) the adversary of the Messiah</font>

So whether or not I am an antichrist depends on who this "Messiah" really is - is it Jesus (Lucifer/Satan/etc.), as supposed by Christians? If so, then I suppose I am an antichrist.

However, since the word "Messiah" only appears twice in the entire bible (in two consecutive verses in the book of Daniel in the Old Testament - see Daniel 9:25,26), it is difficult for me to determine enough about this individual to be either against him or for him.

Let's just say the jury's still out on that one.

Emerald

 

Laughably dangerous

One of the things that cracks me up about non-religionists is that they think they can know enough to ascertain the right path to take. This is based on the fact that they are not aware that there is a path until it is almost too late.

How do I live forever?

Of course, I can walk over to the nearest cemetery and observe the absence of raving, or of sound or pretty much everything.

Admittedly, that seems like a rather limited definition.
Of course, the word is a compound as you saw, of "anti" - against and "christos" - Christ., from "chrio" anointed.

There are a lot more than two appearances of the word "Christ," 569 in fact.

This gives a person an opportunity to see who this Christ is, and what it might mean to be opposed to him.

Well, here is a test to find out for sure...
For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
(2 John 1:7, KJV).

Do you believe Jesus Christ came in the flesh, i.e. was he real?

OTOH, the Hebrew word, which is twice translated "Messiah" is also translated "anointed" 36 times.
Plus, it appears twice in the new testament transliterated into Greek as "Messias."

So, you have 609 appearances of the concept, to decide whether you are for or against.

 

The Rock

Tony,

Your "anointed one" is apparently the covering cherub spoken of in Ezekiel, chapter 28, figuratively referred to here as the prince or king of Tyrus:

<font color="red"> Eze 28:1 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,

Ezekiel 28:2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou [art] a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

Ezekiel 28:3 Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee:

Ezekiel 28:4 With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures:

Ezekiel 28:5 By thy great wisdom and by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches:

Ezekiel 28:6 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God;

Ezekiel 28:7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.

Ezekiel 28:8 They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas.

Ezekiel 28:9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.

Ezekiel 28:10 Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel 28:11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

Ezekiel 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

Ezekiel 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

Ezekiel 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Ezekiel 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

Ezekiel 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

Ezekiel 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

Ezekiel 28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.</font>

Of course, if you look up Tyre/Tyrus at the Blue Letter Bible site, you find that it means "rock". Hmmm...where have I heard that one before? Ah yes, here it is:

<font color="red">Isaiah 8:14 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

Isaiah 8:15 And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken.</font>

So this "rock", Jesus, was sent unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel merely as a stumbling stone and a trap? And this is the god you choose to worship? Bizarre.

Emerald

 

Tony, nobody knows the wrong way. But we know a wrong way when we see it. This is based solely on a comparison of the advertised benefits versus the reality of the process. If what faith in God has done to you and so many other people in this country and world, then it's fair to question whether or not this particular Way of God has anything to do with God, or leads to anywhere.

The judges cannot confirm such silly speculation.

Here you go hopscotching between your vision of those not elected to salvation. Pick one, boy.

I think that must be the attraction of Christian faith: with a book reduced to such meaningless that one can hop back and forth between disparate interpretations of their faith in order to blunder through life in the comfortable assumption that one is more worthy than the next ... Geez, I wish I could surrender my brain and be a hateful, undereducated elitist, too! I mean, you dance around between one answer and another, deny the words of your Bible, and denounce Catholocism to the point that you seem to have declared one of the Gospels off-limits.

This is what your faith does to a person? Is there any other point of argument necessary to demonstrate God's failure to reach humanity through the Bible? Well, the Inquisitions, but since you have such difficulty with Catholocism, I guess that one's out, and you're it.

--Tiassa

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

 

Another odd coincidence?

Tony,

Not to distract you from my previous comments, but I also wanted to ask you if you know how long Jesus' ministry was supposed to have been? And how long is the AntiChrist supposed to rule?

Well, I'm leaving in the morning to go to Portland for a few days, and won't have access to a computer during that time. I'll look for your response when I return.

Emerald

 

Tony,

Is that all you're looking for - eternal life? Okay - as far as I can tell, the people in hell will live there eternally, so I guess you're pretty much right on track. Just keep following the guy who holds the keys to hell and death, and you should reach your goal in no time.

Emerald

 

Re: The Rock

Ay, there's the rub.
How does one go from "apparently" to "actually?"

I have to admit, you do your research.
In a strange sense, you're a credit to atheism, or wicca or whatever it is you believe.
Oddly enough, some of the most eye-opening things I've seen in the Bible are actually pointed out by people such as yourself, Dennis McKinsey, Farrell Till, et al.

Anyway, back to the topic...

As you may well suspect, since you chose to add the word "merely," there is more to it than that.
IOW, he is the rock, a stumbling stone for those who choose to reject him, but a solid foundation for those who choose to believe him.

Yes.

Confounding, perhaps?
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
(1 Corinthians 1:27, KJV).

OK, tiassa, if I'm it, you may be out of luck.
Of course, you wouldn't be the first.

Occasionally, I get to be the last person to preach to someone else.
I don't get bent out of shape when that happens.

About 3 1/2 years.
About 3 1/2 years.

Actually, that's one of problems with this hell thing.
People aren't going to live there eternally.
Hell, as in gehenna (the lake of fire), is a temporary thing.

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
(Romans 6:23, KJV).

Puffs of smoke, that's all.

But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
(Psalms 37:20, KJV).

And ashes.
For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
(Malachi 4:1-3, KJV).

On the other hand, if you're talking about hell the grave, we're all going there, unless we reach the end of time first.

For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
(Ecclesiastes 3:19, KJV).

Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
(Ecclesiastes 9:10, KJV).

 

In other words, Tony ...

... you don't have an answer? Try harder.

--Tiassa

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

 

Hi Tony1, Tony H2o here,

Just thought I'd drop in and say how much encouragement it is to see you standing firm in your faith here, and ask a question.

Also to let a few old friends know that I'm still around reading but not getting time to post anything meaningfull.

Question:

Tony1,

I'm intrigued by your comments on hell, the grave and death. I'm intrigued in the light of Jesus words when He told of the Rich man and Lazarus the poor man. You know the story the rich guy goes to hell and the poor guy to Paradise. Also in the light of a verse that I think comes from Romans that states that through Christ ALL THINGS will be reconciled.

I've been meaning to do a deeper study on these things and the quotes you gave will assist greatly.

Feel free to mail me if you want.

Others:

Hello everyone

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

Allcare

Tony H2o

 

Tony,

On the other hand, a sower should not sow his seed on a rock lest it wither away for lack of moisture or opportunity to take root.

And if the <i>builder</i> rejects a stone, perhaps you should be just a bit curious as to the reason why <i>before</i> adopting it as your cornerstone?

Perhaps you might want to consider the words attributed to <i>your</i> god, as recorded in the book of Isaiah:

<font color="red">Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Isaiah 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.</font>

Maybe Jesus is a stumbling stone to those who failed to get this message? Not that I care one whit for the god of the Old Testament either, but I thought I'd at least bring it to the table so we could chew on it a bit.

Back to you...

Emerald

 

Tony,

Maybe for most, the wages of sin is death. But for those who opt to allow Jesus to take the punishment for their sins, they get to live forever - in hell???

I'd really give that some serious thought if I were you, Tony.

Emerald

 

Tony,

Thanks for the compliment - and it's paganism, by the way. I'm flattered that you would include me in such good company.

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

Emerald

 

Ah, the parable of Lazarus and the rich man...

First off, Jesus spoke to the multitudes in parables...

All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
(Matthew 13:34, KJV).

Secondly, when he was in the Pharisee's house, publicans and sinners presumably crashed the party...

Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.
(Luke 15:1,2, KJV).

Thirdly, when he started to speak to all in the house, it was in a parable...

And he spake this parable unto them, saying,
(Luke 15:3, KJV).

There are a number of words translated into the English "hell."
<ol><li>OT sheol, also the grave and the pit</li><li>NT hades, the unseen</li><li>gehenna- the Jerusalem garbage dump</li><li>Tartarus-the place of the angels that sinned.</li></ol>

Anyway, to briefly sum things up, the idea of eternal torture in a fire underground, which is unable to actually burn anything, is unscriptural, though it is believed by many, even unbelievers (see tiassa's posts).

The truth appears to be capsulized here...

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
(Romans 6:23, KJV).

If this is too brief, ask more questions.

 

You may have a point here.
OTOH, God is a God of abundance, so a seed here or there may not be such a big problem.

No problem there.
It is not the "builder" who rejected the stone, but the "builders."

Who are these builders, you ask? Well, maybe not you, but somebody.

Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,
If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole;
Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
(Acts 4:8-11, KJV).

Thus, I have no problem with this because I know who the builders are, and a rejection from them is almost as good as acceptance by God.

John 1 explains that in a little more detail...

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
(John 1:1-4, KJV).

What saves a person, or to put it another way, what is a person's savior, is the word...

But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
(Romans 10:8-9, KJV).

Well, there you go, spend enough time studying the word, and it gets through.
If you don't believe it, at least you have an idea of what it is you are rejecting.

To answer, yes.
The builders, as we established, were the people of Israel when Peter was talking to them.

And as the people of Israel, at that time, were in fact Jews, it is to the Jews that he is a stumbling stone, since they were the ones who failed to get the message.

But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
(1 Corinthians 1:23, KJV).

Proof? Few Jews accept Jesus as the Messiah.

OTOH, the Greeks referred to aren't just residents of Greece, they are all of the non-Jews who hear the word but reject it.

Proof? You think this is all foolishness, and according to God's word, yet.

 

OK, I'll bite.
What is your point here?

Why would people who opt for Jesus to take the punishment for their sins live forever in hell?

Good being such a relative term.

I am perplexed as to why a person would devote his/her life to studying the Bible, only to completely miss the point.

 

Tony,

Yes, he often spoke in parables, and one might be given to wonder why since parables can be very confusing (particularly to those who are not of his time). But apparently there was method to his madness:

<font color="red">Mark 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

Mark 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.</font>

So Jesus' whole purpose seems to be to cause others to stumble and fall, to be led away from the truth and into error, to...what word am I looking for? Ah yes, here it is:

<font color="blue">4105 planao {plan-ah'-o}

from 4106; TDNT - 6:228,857; v

AV - deceive 24, err 6, go astray 5, seduce 2, wander 1,
be out of the way 1; 39

1) to cause to stray, to lead astray, lead aside from the right way
1a) to go astray, wander, roam about
2) metaph.
2a) to lead away from the truth, to lead into error, to deceive
2b) to be led into error
2c) to be led aside from the path of virtue, to go astray, sin
2d) to sever or fall away from the truth
2d1) of heretics
2e) to be led away into error and sin</font>

To deceive - that's kind of an odd mission for a Messiah - wouldn't you agree?

Emerald