No , Omega , I have never met a truely insane person . Some that I thought approached being completely off their rocker it turned out that they are just normally strange and doing drugs . The Placebo effect coupled with a high priced fake friend ( therapist) is the mechanism behind any "success" the psychoanalysts may try to advance as evidence of their professions validity. The modus operandi of psychoanalysis is one of invention , they try desperately to place others into their contrived Oedipal mold . ----------------------- Edit : removed a quote . Unsure about author .
Omega, Okay, theory. Are you more interested in the scientific basis or more clinical theory (such as Freud, Jung, Adler, etc.), which is more based off of therapy? Abnak, I know very well about the placebo effect. Did you read the study (Kirsch, 1998) that that article is based on? It's posted on the APA website, which is a good start, but it has the following disclaimer: The article that follows is a controversial one. It reaches a controversial conclusion—that much of the therapeutic benefit of antidepressant medications actually derives from placebo responding. The article reaches this conclusion by utilizing a controversial statistical approach—meta-analysis. And it employs meta-analysis controversially—by meta-analyzing studies that are very heterogeneous in subject selection criteria, treatments employed, and statistical methods used. Nonetheless, we have chosen to publish the article. We have done so because a number of the colleagues who originally reviewed the manuscript believed it had considerable merit, even while they recognized the clearly contentious conclusions it reached and the clearly arguable statistical methods it employed. I haven't had time to read the whole study yet, but I'm sure there is some merit. However, with a meta-analysis approach, results could be heavily skewed based on what studies you choose. But I'll reserve judgement until I can get through it. Also, keep in mind this study is only for depression, which probably has the highest placebo effect, which could be a result from people not actually being clinically depressed, in other words- misdiagnosis. Other disorders are different. Take schizophrenia for example, which seems to have a more biological than environmental basis - it will have a much lower placebo effect than depression. It is harder to misdiagnose too. Feeling "down" is common across all people, having hallucinations isn't - it's pretty cut and dry, either you have a hallucination or you don't. Personally, I'm willing to guess that placebo has an effect on everything to some extent, but not nearly as high as a 75% effective rating. I also remember reading that placebos tend to not be so good in the long term. Their initial effect may be great, but extended use seems to generally taper off. Xev, I don't have the resources to look up case studies right now, so I can't talk specifically. There is research that in terms of depression, that Cognitive and Biological have about the same rate of curing (although biological has a higher chance of relapse). Although they are more effective when working in conjunction of each other. Another group of studies say that cognitive therapy was able to cure 50-60 percent of people (I'm sure their were some relapses), as compared to a placebo, about 29%. So I'd assume that at least one of those people was cured for life. However, you are assuming that the only reason for talk therapy is to "be cured". That is the end goal for sure. However, the brunt of what talk therapy does for a person is to manage symptoms - learn to cope with what they have. For instance, talk therapy is poor at "curing" hallucinations that a person with schizophrenia is having, but it can teach that person to manage those hallucinations, make them much less overwhelming, so that they can actually function, possibly to a point where they can hold down a job. Drugs can't teach you how to cope with what you got.
No you want Freud really Omega! Everything after has been taken out of context and misinterpreted. It seems to me that the more recent stuff becomes further and further from the truth. For example when Freud writes about regression he gives examples that were written long ago in the ancient Eastern world: a fear of castration becomes regressed to an oral fear (a fear of being eaten by the father), however other books have since been written that cite regression as something different. Those who have read these later books have continued to drift from the truth as they have written their own books, and these people (the idiots that they are) serve only to spread madness and lies. Of course I could be wrong, with the case of regression too, but I don't think so.
Sefter you have hit the nail on the head! with Freud most people get stuck in their own sexual disfunction when it comes to think clearly about anything to do with Freud Xenu why are you using the word "hallucinations" are you pndering to the mainstream or focussing on a small specific area for a example to common thought QUOTE And it employs meta-analysis controversially—by meta-analyzing studies that are very heterogeneous in subject selection criteria, treatments employed, and statistical methods used ---- PLEASE JUST STOP TO THINK SERIOUSELY ABOUT IT FOR A SECOND who is conjuring groove on all Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Thanksfor the reply xenu! ..." in psychoanalysis schizophrenia and depression are not neurochemical disorders, but narcissistic disorders." The placebo essay did include Kirsch 's '98 study , but was not based entirely on it as you erroneously state . It also included many other facts and sources , there's more links at the bottom of the page . The placebo effect is a known fact . Therapists are part of this effect by the very nature of their interaction with their patients . Originally this article did not have the paragraph you quoted . It was included years later by the APA editors. But for you to question the way meta -analysis has been applied , seems reasonable . At the same time , remember that this study ( and later studies ) were funded by the drug companies themselves ! Other APA studies : http://www.journals.apa.org/prevention/volume5/pre0050023a.html He's one you might like ... "Psychotherapy may offer an effective alternative with fewer medical risks. http://journals.apa.org/prevention/volume5/pre0050025c.html Good point about the difficulties involved with diagnosing "depression ". Most people are sad sometimes and therapists will misdiagnosis and prescribe pills more for this complaint than they would for schizophrenia . Misdiagnosis / fraudulent diagnosis however still does occur , but to a smaller degree . Do you think Freud's problem was ... that he really wanted to screw his mommy ? -------------------------------
Abnak Do you think Freud's problem was ... that he really wanted to screw his mommy --- LMAO you do realise that this interpretation is by way of sexual disfunction i hope so or the jokes on you :/ or me to that end assuming i thought you were being seriouse about your question groove on Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Wow, I used to be heavy into this... as a layperson. It used to be my very favorite discussion subject. There certainly are modern therapies being used today that do not hinge on one's repression of sexuality. I think Freud was on the right track, however. Everything we do as a specie is motivated by two drives. One is to survive and the other to procreate. Therefore, to not understand that we are biologically predestined to common behavioral traits is confining in our exploration of human behavior. As far as therapy goes, I am so out of touch with the terminology but a few things come to mind. One is Cognitive Therapy. That is becoming aware of why we are driven to respond certain ways emotionally. Another thought is Regressive type therapy. This is where we dredge up our loathsome past, put the blame on everyone else because we were a child and come out feeling sorry for ourselves. Frankly I think mental illness/instability falls into two groups. One is chemical imbalance. This is when our reasoning is influenced by insufficient amounts of seratonin, dopamines maybe lack of adequate synapsis of neurons in the bain which could be caused by a lack of even another chemical...and on and on. Second is lack of emotional intelligence which is caused by remaining fixated at a stage in our life when the solutions we explored to handle obstacles in life become fixed at a certain age. Then when we try to respond to problems which beset us as adults we are poor problem solvers and tend to repeat our mistakes. Therapy works good then, because we can go back to the point in time when we needed certain defense mechanisms and can now shed them and move on. A good therapist helps us to do that. I know I've rambled here. Please forgive me. I love this subject and I promise my next contribution will be more focused and less long-winded. Sarahnn.
Sarahnn i understand your conceptualisation of the basic construct you may find that given some types of phenomena these 2 basics dont have scope for them that is because the two basics are a derivative of a larger more specialised group that is difficult for most to comprehend and takes a great deal of effort to teach and is not taught in any schools or universaties that i am aware of the common psychologist is not a student of psychology but just a person looking for a well paid job and once they get their little license to print funny/money they have all the answers if you wish to gain a better guide to the scope of psychology just look at the examples in hand crafts like building as an example the best and considered master builders/craftsmin are in their mid to late 60s just a wee thought for ya to ponder groove on Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
In every field of professional endeavor... There are the usual variety of weeds and hybrids. And we must remember that the basic flaw to psychology is that it is "fallible" humans working with and for "fallible" humans. How can one be detached and compassionate at the same time? And yet that is what therapy requires for the best results. It's an art, definitely.
Ripple , I have to admit I was trying to provoke a response from Xenu Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Please feel free to elaborate / speculate / fabricate on why this question would be indicative of some one with a " sexual disfunction " . Freud's main conclusions revolved around what he thought are Oedipal motivations . Would it be unreasonable to entertain the question that this bias is attributable to his own desires ? ----------------------------- Just don't think of people as clay , to be molded ....and we can get along just fine .
i believe he meant that by claiming that Frued had a sexual attraction toward his mother you are, by implication, supporting the very theories of Frued by admitting the existance, in Frued himself, of a sexual disfunction.
omega WOW if i could reach out to you i would share some of my chocolate bar with you but i will just eat some in your honour Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Abnak LOL on the clay thing thats funny Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! i like that type of humour shows a type of potential ballance that is not all too common groove on
..."you are, by implication, supporting the very theories of Frued " No , this is a invalid assumption and typical of the psychoanalitical thought process . Twist , turn and employ sophistry . Alot of Freud's work deals with what he conjured up as Oedipus motivations . To ask a simple question does not mean that I am " by implication" supporting his theories ...how absurd . In fact , if I was to utilize the very criteria that Analysts use , you, by searching for hidden meanings in others words ( when none exist ) are suffering from "psychosis " . I , of course don't adhere to this doctrine . It's just an example of your self deception , where your bias is preventing you from thinking beyond the years of indoctrination coupled with an erroneous thinking process .
ok ok ok hang a dang min-you-ette if one was to assert that freud was interested in having sexual relations with his mother as a form of interpretation of his work and the theorys he suggested then... that is what i meant to think in that manner is a common indicator of sexual disfunction because of the nature of the thought process there is a loop-back equation built in by certain ... lets say events to keep it nice and vauge that create a construct that is a governing perameter for basic fluid cognition of things that relate in nature to sex so no its not by its definition the ultimate signal flare but given a type of personality then yes it is obviouse omega i think your logic seems sound Abnak maybe you meant something slightly different we could all in some concept assert we suffer from some form of sexual disfunction on the single level of basic interaction to perform the act regardless of the actions groove on Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Riple , perhaps this is just your misunderstanding ? You took a question and turned it into an assertion . Now, I don't think either of you are psychotic because you read too much into a simple question . But there are so called "doctors" that would and do label people for life because of their inherent bias , unsound reasoning and occasionally fraudulent practices .
I read a bit of existentialist psychoanalysis stuff years ago now. It was then modern and American- good though as it wasnt as sex centred or as formulaic as Freud. Sorry i cant recall who it was. Have you tried reading umm who is it> carl rogers? A humanistic psychology take? Might suit more as more based on people being people. Kauffman on the development of moral autonomy was an interesting article i read years ago in ateaching course. Also been some interesting things published over the years re research and psychoanalyis I have read.. I think I found mine by looking in psychology sections in bookshops and uni bookshops and picking up interesting stuff that had a research content. and included reference to practicing psychanalysis. Hope this is helpful.
Abnak quote Do you think Freud's problem was ... that he really wanted to screw his mommy ? --- so now you are saying you did not ask this question gee i find english soo confusing when people use it as a different language Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! try and keep reading to the end of the sentence before you derive a meaning from the first words quote Abnak Now, I don't think either of you are psychotic because you read too much into a simple question --- if the question is simple then there is no confusion with it being an assetion to the action as a potential worthy of your question being simple and strait forward assuming i do not read anything into your last sentence Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! geeesssse sounds like a vailed attempt to protect a self dilusion to me but i dont think your a rapist groove on Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Typical ! Twist , turn and employ sophistry . I am the one who originally put a question mark at the end of that sentence . You turned it into an assertion . You have much potential in the beguiling career of psychoanalysis . Many of the skills needed are present , especially the arbitrary application of a philosophy , which hides behind a verneer of scientific terminology . Go empower yourself with psycho-babble , the world awaits . ----------------------------- Ele , Carl Rogers ?
Abnak so you posed a question which was what not a question a joke why are you saying as much as possible about everything else but the question which i am refering to quote Twist , turn and employ sophistry --- im not twisting anything im just asking you if that was a seriouse question and for some reason you dont seem to understand or want to answer the question if you dont want to because you think it will reveal something about you that you do not want others to know then just say so quote Now, I don't think either of you are psychotic because you read too much into a simple question --- i wont think you are a rapist or pedophile or a clinicaly sexualy disfunctional person either I DONT KNOW YOU is the reality of the statement yet you knocked on the door and then ran to the hills when it was opened unfortunately the huge step that most dont get past in studying psychology is the truthful self analysis part im not asking for all your secrets just what you have chosen to raise on the board nothing more nothing less if you dont wish to discuss it then why try and disprove others by belittling them while suggesting they are disfunctional the thread was started as a seriouse question about psychology from someone asking for help lets try and remember that before trying to undermine peoples self esteem VERY un profesional not to mention un-ethical you could have put a single sentence saying i was not being seriouse or i was being seriouse or please disregard the question your choice maybe a mountain from a mole hill from all groove on Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
