Free Will? Gee, thanks a lot!

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by matnay, Jul 29, 2003.

  1. matnay Registered Senior Member

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    189
    God gave us free will so that we can live out our lives the way we choose. I can respect that. So why does God try so hard to control us? Why did he create religious texts for us to live by? Why did he create the big flood and kill everyone off? Why does God perform sparatic miracles and then other times he does nothing at all. It's because he has a plan. The plan is what is important, not us. He killed everyone in the flood becuase he had a plan. His plan is more important than all of us. He doesn't care about the individual person. We only serve his purpose. What kind of free will is this then? Why are we restricted in our endevours and our way of life? Why can't we forget about God, and use our freedom to do as we please, without fear of consequence? Free will does us no good when we are slaves to God's plan.
     
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  3. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    I thought the whole point (from a christians point of view) is that Jesus died because "God so loved the world he gave up his only begotten son"? I guess from a christian point of view humans must have had some importance for their god to do all that. From what you are saying everything in life is just a pawn in gods design and so there is no free will right? Well if this is true it cannot be a fun game for goddy? I mean if I were a god what would be interesting is seeing what humans would do with their free will not following some stupid pre-fixed plan. But either way if you are correct it wouldn't bother me, I like gods plan because he worked good sex, good wine and all sorts of depraved sensual amusements into his master web. Yea for goddy!
     
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  5. DJSupreme23 neocortex activated Registered Senior Member

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    "god" didn't write any texts or commandments.

    Humans did. Humans with a craving for power. Power to control other humans, to bend them to their own will.

    Religion is POWER .
     
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  7. SpyMoose Secret double agent deer Registered Senior Member

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    speaking of the great flood... after he did it didnt god promice that he would never destroy the world with a flood again? That part read almost like he was sorry and regreted doing it. It seems sort of like a learning curve going on with the great diety there, which of course is ABSURD!
     
  8. CounslerCoffee Registered Senior Member

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    4,997
    S/he doesn't. The church does.

    Humans wrote that. And the church enforces it.

    [/quote]Why did he create the big flood and kill everyone off? [/quote]

    Corruption and violence filled the earth in the ninth generation from Adam. God determined that s/he needed to purge the earth of the ungodly.

    [/quote]Why does God perform sparatic miracles and then other times he does nothing at all.[/quote]

    Miracles? I don't believe in miracles, neither should you. God is just a spectator. Like a meathead watching fooseball
     
  9. everneo Re-searcher Registered Senior Member

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    2,621
    Re: Re: Free Will? Gee, thanks a lot!

    If you were not sarcastic, which one of the above is true.? God is active or inactive ?
     
  10. Agent Smith Registered Senior Member

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    103
    God gave us religoius texts in order to improve our lifestyles. I mean if we listened to the message of religous texts and acted up on them, then we would have a utopia.
     
  11. CHRISCUNNINGHAM The Ethereal Paradigm Registered Senior Member

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    Utopia is unattainable...
     
  12. Jenyar Solar flair Valued Senior Member

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    3,833
    But it is inheritable.

    If eternal life was in a cup of water - exactly how much would you have to drink order to attain it?
     
  13. Jenyar Solar flair Valued Senior Member

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    3,833
    While we're close to the subject, I want to ask a question. I have been religious all my life, and I have only heard of this "hungry greed for power" of the church - mostly around camp fires, late at night...

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    Let's take the most fundamental teaching of the Bible - the ten commandments. Please explain to me what form of control they exert, and why it is so abhorrent?

    I'm not being sarcastic. I would really like to know. As a Christian, I am aware that I might not see something that could look obvious to someone else, so please enlighten me.
     
  14. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    9,879
    The story of god handing down the commandments, which were supposedly more than ten (613). Paul just gave a synopsis to the heathens he was converting, apparently the 'yoke' was too heavy. But anyway, didn't this same god send his people into Canaan and tell them to kill and take the land after giving the commandments? The commandments were part of the covenant given to Jews to practise among themselves, evidently this god had no problem with killing.
     
  15. Jenyar Solar flair Valued Senior Member

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    3,833
    The Commandments (In Hebrew, it is actually "the ten words") were given to Moses, long before Paul's time. But by Paul's time, Jews had evolved them into so many intricate laws that it was almost impossible to follow all of them. There was for instance a law that said you may not drag your chair on the Sabbath, becuase you might make a groove in the floor, and that was plowing, and plowing was work. I'm serious. You were also not allowed to brush your hair, because if you pulled out a hair it was like harvesting, and harvesting was work. By these standards, even 613 is a low number.

    Paul preached against trying to please God by how closely you followed the law.
    The commandment were not part of the covenant - they were the conditions of the covenant. The covenant was that God would give those who followed Him a land to live in (as they had none), would protect them from people who opposed them (and therefore opposed God's will). In those days, your country was your identity (this is still evident with the Jews and Israel), cities were named like sons, and gods were also seen as territorial (the God of Israel, or the gods of Egypt, etc.). By giving victory to the Israelites, God also established his sovereignity over the gods of other countries. War was inevitable, so killing was also inevitable.

    Where people opposed God, they were destroyed, and where they helped the Israelites, they were left in peace. But times have changed, and God has established a new kingdom, and the fight is not against "flesh and blood" anymore.
     
  16. Balerion Banned Banned

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    8,596
    First, for Matnay,

    That should make you realize that this story is B.S. Dude, if he wanted to kill off everyone, or anyone, for that matter, why didn't he just snap his fingers? Why did he have to create a flood? The way God is described, he should not have had to do that.

    And now, for Jenyar,

    If you're really open for discussion on the matter, and willing to hear everyone out who ISN'T Christian, then let's get busy...

    I'm not sure I believe that the intent of the Bible overall is malicious control. Becuase there are so many authors, over so many years, you would imagine that there would be many different agendas. In this case, the Ten Commandments, I would say that they were created as a means to control the followers, but not in a malicious way. Well, of course, they tell you there is "but one God" to worship, but aside from that, there are some good things in the Ten Commandments. Most of the commandments, when followed, can lead to a good foundation for life.

    You have to think, back then, when the people lacked fundamental knowledge of the ecosystem and the Earth as a whole, the idea of a God was not far-fetched at all. What makes it rain? God. Where does the rain come from? The vast ocean in the sky. Why is there water in the sky? Becuase God had to seperate the water so the land could be lived on.

    Do you see how these explanations, written in the Bible, lack the knowledge that someone spreading "God's word" should have? And the idea that works like Genesis should not be taken literally doesn't work, as the story is VERY descriptive, and seemingly meant to show everyone how the universe was created.

    It's late, and I need sleep. I'll get into why I think there is a malicious control factor in the Bible tomarrow.

    JD
     
  17. EvilPoet I am what I am Registered Senior Member

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    "Paul hardly ever allows the real Jesus of Nazareth to get a word in."
    -Carl Jung
     
  18. Jahiro Registered Senior Member

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    Haha, evilpoet, even though my few encounters with you on here have shown me you can be a monkey, that quote was great

    Paul the liar...

    -Jahiro
     
  19. Jahiro Registered Senior Member

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    Oh btw, Read ISAIAH 45:7

    For all you who believe free will exists, it is just as provable as stating free will doesn't exist

    Except, the latter I've found to be easier to show...

    -Jahiro
     
  20. Jahiro Registered Senior Member

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    90
    Only in your limited perception is it

    What if ONE Ideal or TRUTH was written in the HEARTS and MINDS of mankind?

    Besides, TRUE anarchy is a utopia

    -Jahiro
     
  21. DJSupreme23 neocortex activated Registered Senior Member

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    Originally posted by Jenyar
    >While we're close to the subject, I want to ask a question. I have been religious all my life, and I have only heard of this "hungry greed for power" of the church - mostly around camp fires, late at night...

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    >Let's take the most fundamental teaching of the Bible - the ten commandments. Please explain to me what form of control they exert, and why it is so abhorrent?

    I'm glad you asked, Jen.

    The ten commandments were not given to moses on a mountain. Their origins are as a peace agreement between the hittites (mideasterners) and the egyptians (north africans), who had been locked in war for eons. This peace agreement contained 10 major rules, which - you guessed it - were paraphrased in the bible and adopted by Moses on the Exodus.
     
  22. Jenyar Solar flair Valued Senior Member

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    3,833
    Your source?

    If you mean the Kadesh treaty - it certainly doesn't have "10 major rules". The depiction of the battle of Kadesh in the temple of Abu Simbel shows a picture of an ark that looks like the ark of the covenant, which was made to contain the Commandments.

    Some archeoloists believe that King Ahab of Israel was a contemporary of Ramses II and implicates him with the battle of Kadesh. Ahab lived 400 years after Moses and the commandments. (Ramses III and the Sea Peoples)
     
  23. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    9,879
    Jenyar you are correct about the difference between the ten commandments and moaic law, and I understand that the ten are the terms of the covenant.

    The ten commandments are not abhorrent, but very few keep them. The commandments do not hold any control over the desires of men, we generally pick and choose those that suit us and discard of them when convenient.

    "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" A. Crowley

    I find Crowely's law just as good as any other.

    I guess if one believes in the bible and it being inspired by divinity then one is obligated to keep those laws and rules. Is it that people could not live well enough without those laws and rules? Society would create some law or taboo, some form of order without implicating god in the process. The only laws I believe come from god are natural laws (laws of nature) Why is it not enough for us to form our own morality? I tend to find religious people (not all but many) to be the worst of hypocrites adhering to none of their religions teachings except by being judgemental, intolerant and simply posturing piety. The ultimate freedom if there really is a god is to choose not to follow his law. If to sow what you reap is the same as cause and effect, action and consequence then fine but I do not believe there is a god who punishes based on list of sins. That is a ploy by religion to control and frighten the massess keeping us all meek and mild.
     

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