Whosoever said to believeth was easy?

Re: ... and even less today, Tony

What I call the non-believer's handbook to understanding the Bible is your posts.

To shorten this up considerably, God woke me up after a three-day party and told me to go to church with a friend of mine. I went.

The price of paper is an important part of the history of Christianity, but hardly germane to the true issue.

Sorry for not believing the way you want me to.

My salvation applies to this universe, whereas your suppositions, not having actually occurred, must belong to some other universe.

No.

No.

tiassa, she?

I highly doubt this.
tiassa's trying to demolish Christianity, except for the constant confusion between it and Catholicism.

Oh, I know what the "contextual" application is...
It is: that verse doesn't apply the way I think it applies, it applies the way you think it applies.
Or it applies yesterday, or tomorrow, but not today.
Or it applies to the OT Jews or the NT Christians, but not to us.

What is this?
Are you a liberal Christian?

Thanks.

 

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Finally, the crux of the issue

Yes, but do you have a point?

So you admit your brain was under the influence of substances which may have clouded your judgement?

Besides ... just be more responsible when you get loaded. How tough is that?

Whatever you say, Tony. You're the one who asserted that the failure of the Gospel of reconciliation has nothing to do with that Gospel. You're the one who doesn't care what God has meant to your Christian neighbors. That you choose to be alone in your faith is your own choice, but it doesn't change the fact that your denial of history via a hatred of the Catholics is the very issue.

Hell, you can believe what you want. When you advocate irresponsible religion and proclaim falsehoods about your imagined superiority ... that's when it becomes an issue to me.

Please demonstrate your salvation in this Universe. Since you are defending a belief communicated to you through the Testament of Jesus Christ, I would suggest that you demonstrate it somewhere outside of that Bible.

Furthermore, please document the suppositions. Such pasty, retreating accusations get you nothing.

And yet even furthermore ... since you have no imagination about your own Universe, you must invent another for those things you are either unwilling or unable to recognize? Talk about a lack of perceptual empathy: it doesn't look right so it must be foreign.

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Well, thank you for clarifying that.

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--Tiassa

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the crux of the issue

Jesus is Lord.

Sure, at one time I was just like you.

Here we go again.
I'm almost starting to feel sorry for you.
I'm sure you have a huge arsenal of stuff to shoot down the Catholics, but I'm just not Catholic.

As if you care.
You're just bored.
You're still bummed out that your anti-Catholic weaponry is so useless, because I'm not Catholic.

OK, when you're in the middle of the lake of fire, I'll wave from the shore so you can see me.

OK

Emphases mine.

 

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Stop making it so easy, Tony

Which only goes to prove the point that God could not have made things any differently. Your staunch denial of the Catholic place in Christian history is a denial of the method by which the Lord Almighty chose to ensure that you, Tony1, could receive the Gospel. In other words, it was more important that God's gospel survive than that it worked.

--Tiassa

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Re: Stop making it so easy, Tony

<ol><li>"did not" does not necessarily mean "could not."</li><li>interestingly, perhaps all of the Catholic stuff happened just to throw you off, since you do not choose the truth.</li><li>I don't deny the place of Catholicism in history at all. It happened.</li><li>I don't deny that God got me the gospel</li><li>the gospel works in spite of your saying it doesn't.</li></ol>

Since the first time I picked up on your total RC indoctrination, I've noticed that it is even more obvious now.

Your approach to religion now appears to be that, absent Catholicism, there is no religion at all.
That brings up an interesting question.
Are you channeling a "purely" Catholic spirit?

 

You're slacking, Tony

Briefly, sir, since I'm getting the impression that's all you're equipped for.

1) Could not/Did not: Tony, please explain, then, by what criteria God could have or would have made the Universe different. If God "could have" done it differently, what, then, are the degrees? Is this the best God could do, to short-circuit his own design? As I see it, if God could have done it differently, he would have. That he did not signifies that this Universe is in accord either with God's will, or the superlative force which governs God's abilities. If God could have done it differently, this implies both the capability of God to make mistakes, and the necessity that he should learn from them. Catholic, Christian, or whatever you want to call it, this does not seem to be a principle which has rooted firmly among the flock. The idea of God making mistakes is somewhat anathema, to my experience and also to my assessment of history.

2) Catholic stuff: Are you asserting that your anti-Catholocism is merely rhetorical deflection from more important issues? Or is it that you're assuming ... well, I'm not entirely sure. But your statement #2 seems to be a loaded assumption whereby you are trying to establish new constraints for the debate in order to tip the balance. Try your hardest, Tony. It doesn't change the fact that your rhetoric is both empty and unoriginal.

3) Denying Catholocism: Yet you exclude them from Christianity in a vain attempt to avoid issues of history and considerations of how past events affect contemporary perspectives. This rhetorical retreat is the issue I pick with your hatred of Catholics. Otherwise, it's fine with me if you hate them until you rot.

4) God and deliverance of gospel: And he did so in a manner most contrary to the nature of that gospel. Therein lies the key; as I said, it was more important, then, that the gospel reached you than that it worked.

5) The gospel works: To what end?

As to RC indoctrination ... do you recognize the Trinity? Do you recognize the four gospels as the only accurate gospels? You're still lock-stepping in that Catholic mode, as well, for these are Catholic "religion" innovations.

--Tiassa

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Re: You're slacking, Tony

Again, I don't hate Catholics. They need salvation the same as anyone else.

 

Wow

And you still can't come up with anything. Why did you even bother?

Bad Tony.

--Tiassa

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Re: Wow

I did come up with something.

The Catholics are in need of salvation, as are you.

You are not going to tell me that you exercise free will with your goddess, or succubus, coming around.
Just try doing or saying something contrary to what it, "she," says.
You'll quickly find out why it is you need salvation.

 

poor Tony

Tony, if there was ever proof that you have no clue what you're talking about, it's this last post of yours.

You have publicly declared before that Catholics are not Christians. As I understand it, everyone in the world needs saving, according to Christian faith. Thus, aside from you previous scandalizations of Catholics, you are doing nothing but repeating your standard emptiness.

On the one hand, how dare you take your own stupid assumptions about the Universe according to what you think your God wills, and apply it accross the void to the goddess. To the other, you have demonstrated once again how little you have to say. We know, we know, Tony. It's much easier for you to try to tear down things you have no clue about than it is to demonstrate the power of your faith. Or is it just that your faith is in the ability to try to tear things down? Quit worshipping your own hatred.

--Tiassa

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goddess pissed off?

Now, there's a pointless point if I've ever seen one.
Because Catholics aren't Christians, they need saving.
If they were Christians, they'd already be saved.

Nothing to it.

You don't know who or what your goddess is. I do.
I always thought you were channeling, now I see that your channeling isn't just playing around.

You are really in a bind now.
You have no choice but to defend your goddess.
If you fail in your defence of it, "her," you'll know plenty about torment without having to die.
On the other hand, if you "succeed," which you won't, all you'll have are suicidal thoughts.

Hear this, if you run into problems...

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
(Romans 10:13, KJV).

You realize that a person heading in the wrong direction must turn around and head back to square one before going in the right direction?

You can call it "tearing down" if you want to.

As for being "little," the gospel is really quite simple.

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
(Romans 10:9,10, KJV).

 

Tony1

You wrote:
"Now, there's a pointless point if I've ever seen one.
Because Catholics aren't Christians, they need saving.
If they were Christians, they'd already be saved"

seriously Tony how hard is it to understand the word "christain"?? is it the part about following christ (which is what catholics do)??

and further if you accept christ as lord blah blah blah blah are you not saved??, again catholics accept christ as lord blah blah blah blah just like you tony...so what makes you a christain and a catholic something else?? I suggest the reason is your own bias and ignorance...but please enlighten me.

And finaly what "sect" of christainity do you align yourself with??

 

Present yourself better, Tony ....

Wow, Tony ... you've presented yourself as unspeakably stupid.

Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!

How much dumber can you get? Your assumptive approach to everything, that you know of other people what they do not know of themselves, is a direct result of the brand of faith your Bible fosters. You have yet to escape your pattern of behaving according to the Cult of the Bible. You ought to try an approach that isn't as stale as the Apostolic Apologists.

Further evidence that you have no clue.

One of the things you fail to understand is that I'm quite aware of where deities come from. They all are, without exception, human creations. My goddess, much like my religious structure, is not offended when my Universe becomes bigger than she. It comes from actively choosing to maintain theistic parameters. I find this mode of thought far preferable to being blackmailed by Jesus and his Daddy.

Alright, Tony. Hand over the drugs.

What the hell are you talking about?

That's why I like you, Tony. If I think of one who is headed in the right direction in the first place, I am thankful that you're there to prevent them from making a wrong turn down the Christian road. You're a wonderful product of your faith, sir, and demonstrative of its fullest potentials.

Since you can't be relevant about the little things, for after all you are not the Gospels, and who gives a rat's ass what God says one must believe, since that taints its credibility, I'll concede that yes, I can call it tearing down. Your dismissive approach to people's perspectives demonstrates your lack of respect. If you think you can "turn around" someone by disrespecting them, well, you're gambling on the pathetic state of human nature that such faith as yours has reduced it.

--Tiassa

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You laugh, but those poor Catholics are going thru life thinking they're going to heaven.

As dumb as you?
Altho, it would take a while.

I don't know you.
For all I know about you, you might not be as dumb as sack of hammers.

I do know your goddess and it has you completely spun out.
You think you are getting the wisdom of the ages from it ("her"), but it doesn't know the wisdom of the ages, anymore than you do.

The "wisdom" of your goddess, otherwise known as stupidity, is as stale as a corpse.
To you it is new, so you think it's great stuff.

Of course not, it knows that the universe is bigger than "she" is.
It also knows that Jesus is Lord.

Simple, if you think your goddess is something you created, then do something opposing "her."
You'll quickly find out the only thing you created is the illusion of freedom.

Well, if you wish to be coddled to death, that's your business.

I've actually seen people who are being shot at, get pissed off for being dissed when you yell at them to duck.
They feel that they don't need to be yelled at.

For people like that, and you seem to be like that, I can only say, I hope you like the bullet better.

 

I'm trying to stay positive Tony

Because once again you have made me wonder if you are perhaps a provocateur attempting to discredit Christianity through your amazingly awful presentation of it. If this is the case, I must ask you to stop. Christianity may have its problems treating people correctly, but there is no reason to stoop so low. The behavior of a nation and world of Christians has produced certain effects on society that speak to its worth. One should not reinforce those effects in such a manner as your provocateur routine.

I know. But then again, you live under the same assumption. Oh, poor you

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What's nice about it, Tony, is that I know that, because of your faith, this is the Best that you can do. And so we're all real proud of you.

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Now, would you like to address the whole paragraph you're responding to? Or is that the point, that you're incapable because your faith compels you to go forth and behave this way for a lack of any better expression of much you require approval, for whom better to seek approval of than to assume a Creator of the Universe who loves you and wants you to treat the world as if you despise it.

Here's a hint:

In other words, O Grand Wizard of the Anti-Catholics, stop arguing an approach that was stale and useless by the time Catholics actually showed up on the scene. To discredit something by assuming its motives is exactly how the catholic (as used by Ignatius of Antioch, as opposed to Catholic) assembly of Christians and their churches attempted to usurp the social station of their Jewish neighbors.

On the one hand, Tony, I would argue with you on this, except that you still have no clue what you're talking about. To the other, why do you insist on employing the same processes that led to the rise of the Catholocism that you so hate? Your arrogance is so stereotypical; that is, the broadest, most offensive stereotypes assigned Christianity by its critics, you fulfill. You must make true believers cringe, yet here again I find myself looking at the phenomenon of who or where those true believers are. Based on all of my observations of society, you are merely another Christian, with Christian fancy and superstition, and just as full of hatred as the next. You're going to have to do better than to claim over and over that you know, and never provide anything else. I would say your credibility is on the line, but you've none left to put up. So, would you please assert the detail of your knowledge? Not of your Biblical superstition; hell, son, we've all heard allegedly intelligent people cite the Bible. But the simple fact is that it reduces their outward impression of intelligence. As far as I can tell, you haven't an original thought in your head, but that's merely based on a few observations:

* Nobody apparently understands your faith. Since anyone trying to address it seems to have the wrong perspective, though that's not hard because all we know about you is that you don't like the lable "Christian" and that you hate Catholics.
* You apparently know everything in God's Universe. Don't worry, most Christians seem to be under this delusion. I'd love to say that it will pass, but I have yet to see any evidence that it will. You will most likely continue to have the experience of having to call people stupid because you are so empty of human compassion and empathy that you cannot imagine why anyone would disagree with you.
* For someone trying to walk in Christ's path, you've got a high horse crammed way up there. Get off it. Show us some of that Christian spirit. As it is, you sound like a jealous child flinging Bibles at people because they won't believe that you know everything God intended in the Universe.
* You apparently have no point. Aside from slogans and canned, stale rhetoric, you come to these debates and disrupt them. Do you even recall what this topic was? You've already declared that you have nothing to say on that, so what in the world is your point? Thus far, you're merely defaming the faith you claim.

What in the hell are you talking about here? Would you please respond to the portion you actually cited: You have yet to escape your pattern of behaving according to the Cult of the Bible. You ought to try an approach that isn't as stale as the Apostolic Apologists.

Do you have a point at all? Ever?

Ah, the heart of the matter. The unsubstantiated declaration of faith that equals, "My dad can beat up your mom." You have no idea how Christian that is; by example, that is, as opposed to the repeated, hollow declarations of a people that will let their fellow humans starve so long as they can haul people into courtrooms and jails for bad music or good sex, or even both. At least they have their priorities clear, so I guess I should admire them.

And here we find a significant aspect of your ignorance: I cannot oppose her. She is a celebrant of life, and I am a living soul. She has no need to intervene and punish when life itself will do that. I mean, if you can tell me anything about the Threefold Law that is remotely accurate, I would be impressed. I'll even give you a clue: What you sow, you also shall reap, three times over.

And here is an excellent opportunity to point out a fundamental difference 'twixt Christianity and other people. In this case, I'm curious what you see in the italicized phrase above. Because I'm almost willing to bet cash on the answer, but the people who would know what I'm betting on wouldn't, most likely, take up the bet. I await your assessment of the italicized summary of the Threefold Law.

But you keep looking at the Goddess as if someone is trying to replace your idea of God with her in their minds. Had you a shred of human empathy, you would attempt to perceive what they are seeing instead of comparing it to your God and saying it doesn't fit. Who ever said that God has to be as amazingly stupid as the one found in the Bible? (Only the Christians!) So again, sir, I ask you ... What the hell are you talking about?

Tony, what makes me smile here is that you have once again demonstrated the selfishness that I believe runs broadly through your brand of Christian faith. You have chosen to defend your method and make excuses for your own self rather than address what you're doing to God's credibility among humankind. It seems, by your answer, that you would rather "win the argument" than actually advance God's standing in the world. You're more concerned with your own human ego than you are with the work that your God allegedly wants you to do. And that is a result of your constructions of faith.

On the other hand, what happens if you do people the kindness of yelling, "Fire," in a crowded theatre when there is no fire? You have yet to establish that anyone's being shot at, or who has the gun. So stop yelling.

--Tiassa

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Re: I'm trying to stay positive Tony

Sorry, no.

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
(Revelation 21:2,3, KJV).

I'm not going to be living in heaven.

Is that the blackest brush you can paint with?

Your observations?
I'm sure you are very perceptive, and all.

You might consider something other than claiming that I don't know, and providing nothing else.

At this juncture, I am forced to ask myself if I care about your impressions.
I would be very pleased to have you consider me stupid.

I'm responding to your statement that your goddess visits you.

Your goddess is going to burn, and "she" will take you with "her."
You aren't the first to experience a "goddess," and you won't be the last.

I can't be all that ignorant. After all, I said you wouldn't be able to oppose it, and here you are saying the same thing.

"She" is a deceiver, and a "celebrant" of death.
And make no mistake, "she" will punish, and quite severely at that, if you attempt to change your mind from the path of death that you are on.

No.
I just know who the "goddess" is, and you don't.

It fits perfectly with what God says.

You can "win" the argument if you want to.
You can go as far as the "goddess" goes, if you wish.
You just aren't going to get very far.

 

Re: Re: I'm trying to stay positive Tony

Tony,

You have just demonstrated the misogynous contempt for the Goddess which is the cornerstone of the patriarchal religions. How proud you must be to stand in the center of the sandbox shouting, "Your mama!" and loudly proclaiming that your dad can beat up our mom, as Tiassa so eloquently put it. Our mom is minding her own business, and isn't interested in a boxing match with the neighborhood ruffian.

Funny - this is how I see your "dad", who has been quite frank on these points, by the way.

How nice for you that you should be privy to all the secrets of the universe.

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I would like to recommend a book that might show you the other side of the coin, if you're interested in seeing it: <a href="http://www.goddessmoon.org/education/when_god_was_a_woman_-_merlin_stone.htm"><i>Book Review</i>: When God Was A Woman</a>

Emerald

 

so much effort, so little result

We know. We know.

No.

Generally, people think so. I mean, sure, I tend to think so, but I'm a biased source on that.

Never trust a man who says he knows what he's doing. Unless it has to do with the remote control, he's lying.

To the first, that is an excellent question to ask oneself. To the other, you're making quite a statement to that effect.

I take it back; terminal stupidity was not characteristic of the Apostolic Apologists. On the other hand, there is a sense of lunacy about it all, so you're still in classic form. After all, you were originally responding to the quote: You have yet to escape your pattern of behaving according to the Cult of the Bible. You ought to try an approach that isn't as stale as the Apostolic Apologists. Once again, you have demonstrated a few things about your grasp of reality. It's in your 5/5/2001 post. I'll even quote it for you:

So would you like to take another hack at it? What the hell are you talking about?

I believe this has been covered a couple of times. If you don't get it, well ... fine. It's your right to maintain superstitions born of ignorance.

You have said that she would punish me if I oppose her. I have said that I cannot oppose her. You seem to think this means I am unable to muster the force. To correct you as gently as possible: You know that thing called free will which Christians often claim to possess in their relationship with God? I have it. Those things done in opposition to the Rede will bring their own justice: she needs do nothing. It's called Liberty, sir, and your contract with your God suspends it.

First off, why should she not celebrate death? Death is a much a part of life as birth. And here again we see you stating that I can oppose her and receive punishment. What is it, Tony? Can I oppose her or not? Really, when you don't have a clue what you're talking about, it's best not to embarrass yourself by waving your lack about like a battle crest.

You know, statements like that do nothing to encourage my perception of your intelligence. Emerald's recommendation is a good one; see also Starhawk's Spiral Dance, or Adler's Drawing Down the Moon.

Ooh! I'm convinced.

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Tony, it's only about winning or losing because you choose that it should be so. Don't choose conquest over knowledge: that's so 16th-century Catholic.

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--Tiassa

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(Psst ... Hey, Tony!)

C'mon, take a shot. Give us your best reflections. Oh, wait ... I'm sorry, I forgot the soulless don't have reflections.

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winks,
Tiassa

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