The end of space

Discussion in 'Astronomy, Exobiology, & Cosmology' started by Fil, Feb 11, 2001.

  1. Malaclypse Perturber Registered Senior Member

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    the Big Bang theory is bullshit
     
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  3. Javier Registered Senior Member

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    56
    Nilkin,

    Even travelling slow you can check out the light from the furthermore points.

    The last guess is somewhere between 12 and 13.5 thousand million years,depending on,no coincidence here,the amount of mass.


    Plato,

    Spacetime is relative to the point of view(the real value of it),and as any finite observer has a limited one,will observe it finite(I mean physically perceive the boundaries along the three spatial dimensions and the one from the start to "today",whichever it may be) even if you were born in the Big Bang and you gonna live forever;the only observer able to perceive it actually infinite would be an
    absolute one,infinitely extense into the future right now(if we accept that in some way "already" exists)and in space,i.e. God.

    The spherical model itself is just another abstraction,in which time is represented spacelike,and this difference makes the whole point,because we can t observe time as an unmoving totality,but only as a dynamic point by point"flux" ...

    But as we can observe the flux of time pass by,or its consecuences on the present,we can call the past-present vector as a measure of physical time on an object,which we can t with the future...

    Concerning the four dimensions limits,good comment,this is a nice point of start to argue against the very concept of infinity(applied to any magnitude),because the fundamental forces are limits too,the matter- energy division and the formula relating them,(and what about maths?)the initial prospect of mass and its distribution right down to this conversation;for if it has no limits,how can be described?

    Only indirectly,by denying the only condition observable(and therefore physically real) for us:the boundaries one.

    About the name you proposed i like it more than the usual,but look at the old one as a more logically descriptive,"one side",meaning the totality known at the given moment as a unit.(anyhow,we would have to change the old totality s name,as we add places)

    Javier
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2001
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  5. rich68 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    34
    time

    hi fil

    if your teacher states,space is infinite,and theres nothing after it.my question to him,what was before it?
    my view on time,is it does exsist,it started as soon as the bigbang kicked in,and that is why we can look back in time from the beginning!its simple the hubble is a time machine!cya

    rich
     
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  7. N9teenPoint5 Registered Member

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    1
    A tiny little red ant placed in the middle of the Atlantic ocean would swim till he dies never knowing if there is an end. So as we shall.
     
  8. Javier Registered Senior Member

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    Best post of the thread,IMO...
    Welcome¡
     
  9. josharuni Registered Member

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    end of the physical...

    True, our physical universe is infinite. It must be, by our knowledge, for our universe is always expanding. yet it obeys the laws of conservation of energy(at least we think it does). But beyond our physical universe(and there is a beyond), there must be something non physical, something that was before time, and therefore must be eternal. It is the metaphysical, the being that started the physical. We are essentially derived from the metaphysical, we are derived from a non physical reality. therefore we must be composed of something not really physcial.
    We are formed from information - the very atoms that we are composed of are, down to the tiniest particle(of which we still have not found) is pure information, or ideas, derived from the metaphisical............
     
  10. dos2winmaclinx Registered Member

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    11
    spacetime

    Cosmological Genisis:

    Energy begets
    Mass begets
    Gravity begets
    Time begets
    Space =
    Entropy!

    Before that was Singularity, when spacetime is beyond our four dimensional universe.

    Have lots of fun!

    mike
     
  11. mark'd'spark Registered Member

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    1
    Its real

    An infinite universe ehh.

    The reality is we live in our visible, detectable universe..one of many billions of universes. there is no limit to space and time so therefor our universe is just a small spec in the continuum. There is no beginning of time and therefore there will be no end. When matter changes from one form to another time continues.

    All universes are material based..based from the tiniest quarks to the largest black holes.

    Black holes are invisible to the eye and yet they are made of something, and they are the most massive object in all the universes.
     
  12. tetravex Registered Member

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    5
    Can anyone answer my question?

    The things everyone says about space and time, all seem to make sense, however my question is evolution.

    Humans evolved correct? but if the universe is infinitly in the past and future, why now. in the last millions of years, in fact u cant even call the years. u figure that years are times around the sun, what about before the sun? whats the unit to be used?

    my main question is if the universe and space are infinitly in the past, why is it that earth just suddenly was formed. there could not have been a catalyst for the creation, because it was always here, always space, so why in the last billions of years did the solar system form? why in this little spec in the timeline of the universe did the earth form? or is time not a line, but more circle with no end? nor begininng, or should we assume and space to be just that, time and space, no boxes, bows, strings, spheres, no shape can possibly give any meaning to it.

    i have no answers to any of these wrinkles in my logical understanding of time and space, however i no one can answer these questions really logically, because the universe is beyond any logic we have been conditioned to be familiar with
     
  13. Ertai Registered Senior Member

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    tetravex there is not much logic in what you just said..

    Space as we see it now was not as it was in the past..

    Galaxies form ,solar systems form
    Stars born in the nebulas..

    Our planet never existed "forever" neither our galaxy..

    The existence of space/time might have an infinite past
    but not our earth..
     
  14. tetravex Registered Member

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    granted what u said, but why is it that the earth is not infinite too, if the universe and time are infinite, the earth and everything else should have been infinite too, if everything was there to begin with, it makes no sense that the earth would pop up, nor galaxies, or anyhting else, its hard to explain, if it were in person or on the phone it wold be easier, typing is dificult to portray things
     
  15. shoelessjoe20 Registered Member

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    Big Bang

    If space and the universe have been here forever, then wouldnt the big bang theory be full of crap,
    I dunno this whole thing is mind boggling,
    maybe there is some sort of time loop continual
     
  16. tetravex Registered Member

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    5
    thats what i am saying, y did the big bang happen when it happened, if everythign was there forever before now?
     
  17. fadingCaptain are you a robot? Valued Senior Member

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    1,762
    Tetra,
    Maybe this will help.

    Even if the universe (that is, all energy that makes up the known universe) were infinite...that does not mean that time is infinite. Energy could have always existed under different circumstances than our current space-time formation. So. if you consider the big bang the beginning of time, then time is either finite or a potential infinte as opposed to an actual infinite.

    That being said, there are still possibilities of an actual infinite time such a eternal recurrance.

    It helps if you think of time itself as only a result of the current formation of energy.

    Hope this made some sense.
     
  18. bigjnorman Registered Senior Member

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    inertia

    whats up fellas,

    I vaguely remember reading somone's theory that if the universe was spatially unbounded then there would be a serious problem calculating inertia (it would approach infiity)

    Because of Gravity's allways-attractive nature I think the 'finite yet unbounded' approach to the universe is possible.

    have you guys heard anything about the inertia thing?
     
  19. CHRISCUNNINGHAM The Ethereal Paradigm Registered Senior Member

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    Space and time always existing?

    I have noticed many people(atheists) continuously state that time and space simply always existed. However, what is this ASSUMPTION based on???

    I know a few things that in fact lead away from such an assumption...

    Time, doesn't really exist, and if you think it does explain what it is.

    Even if energy has always existed...Energy, being defined as "infinite potential", invokes the question.....How can this infinite potential be thrown out of its false vacuum state, at which point it transforms into matter.

    For in order for an entity to change postively in entropy ENERGY is needed to be added to cause the change. Where did this excess energy that was exclusive of the seemingly "always existent infinite potential"(energy) come from??
     
  20. fadingCaptain are you a robot? Valued Senior Member

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    1,762
    I haven't seen many people state this. This is in direct opposition to big bang theory.
     
  21. CHRISCUNNINGHAM The Ethereal Paradigm Registered Senior Member

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    Check some of the earlier posts in this thread then, or anything that ever entails arguing about "how did the universe start". Everytime anything like this is ever asked many atheists(people) try and argue, "well one can simply state the universe has always existed". I mean really. If you have never seen this you must be new to creation/atheists vs theists debate in general.

    The second post in this thread by Cris states...

    Now of course he is not the only one. But this is exactly what I am referring to. Moreover his statement includes an infinte number of possible of big bangs, and/or universes. So the SINGLE big bang theory rules that out, however his statement can exclude that theory. Either way, I know it contradicts the big bang theory, and this is exactly displayed through my previous post.

    But as I said if you haven't heard someone state "then the universe simply always existed" then you've never been in an atheist debate. Or you yourself have never heard an atheists ideas on how the universe could have been created without a God. This argument is ubiquitous of such debates, and in fact is the only thing that could ever even remotely shut down the question of "where did the universe come from".
     
  22. fadingCaptain are you a robot? Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,762
    Chris,
    When someone argues that the universe has always existed, they likely mean the energy that makes up the current formation of the universe has always existed. Not space-time. You seem to have never gotten this point. See my previous post in this thread.

    No I am not. You seem to have been confusing 'space-time' with the 'energy of the universe' all along. It must have been befuddling to you. Perhaps when you initially said 'space-time' you meant something else?
     
  23. CHRISCUNNINGHAM The Ethereal Paradigm Registered Senior Member

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    Ha no no no. I know exactly what they mean.

    Notice how my main refutation was dealing with energy. Quite obviously you are the one befuddled. I mean, did you even read my post aside from the section you commented on...if you take a small glance at it you will see that I have in fact never said anything about space excluding the title, I spoke soley about time and energy.

    You should get an occular aide of some sort.
     

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