Iraq, War, and Irrelevance

Discussion in 'World Events' started by Unregistered, Aug 25, 2003.

  1. guthrie paradox generator Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,089
    "An action carried out for arbitrary benefit- a war of amusement, or plunder- is unethical, but this war was not."

    Except Im fairly certain that peopel are in this war for a variety of reasons, from plunder and personal gain, to the sincere desire to help another country and remove a problem. So theres both motives in there.
     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. nico Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,122
    The Iraqi war was planned far in advance- for reasons greater than short term benefit. The US has not attempted to steal Iraq, or any of its resources, it has merely used it as a partner in a deal that is mutually beneficial.


    *yawn* the apologetics on the forum come out and play. The US is clearly in Iraq for the long term, if the US did not try to exploit the Iraqi oil industry why does her corporations get first crack? Why did the oil ministry be the first one to be secured? Mutually benefical? You believe in fantasy because that's where you are. If anything the new oil order will not be beneficial to Iraq at all. With her oil on the market the US pressuring her to export more to keep the prices down the Iraqi ppl will suffer in the long term. Surely of course u will benefit economic, in terms of terrorism fat chance. Exploit Iraq go ahead you'll ultimately pay the price for greed.

    Nico, although this thread should be closed, you should also leave the forum, if that should really be a result of expressing a controversal opinion. Guffaw.


    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    Ok, El Duche
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2003
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. SG-N Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,051
    You should think before making a wish... you could have what you asked! Does "9/11" means something for you? USA went in Iraq, asking for a war. Now she has it : http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,82432,00.html

    You seems to love war, don't you? So, go on! Go in Iraq, I guess lots of soldiers would love to give you their place!
     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. Congrats Bartok Fiend Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    552
    guthrie- there is a common ground between selfless service and plunder. Personal gain is always a good thing, whether that be for one person or for an entire nation of people. A war that holds no benefit for us would be more unethical than one that does, because we wuoould have shed blood for nothing.

    nico- we need capital to invest in Iraq's infrastructure, and following the logic that rge Us needs to give Iraqis more control, it only makes sense that we should use their resources to invest in their future. This, of coourse, does not preclude US funds, as that is our duty, but you need money before things can be rebuilt.
     
  8. nico Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,122
    nico- we need capital to invest in Iraq's infrastructure, and following the logic that rge Us needs to give Iraqis more control, it only makes sense that we should use their resources to invest in their future. This, of coourse, does not preclude US funds, as that is our duty, but you need money before things can be rebuilt.

    Use their resources to invest in their country. What u essentially said is that the US is going to control iraqi accounts, sick and essentially use that money to rebuild Iraq in America's not Iraq's image. America wants to keep peace in the ME, my suggestion is to get out, peace will never happen. All superpowers have failed prior this time is in no way different. Rationalization is mans worst enemy.
     
  9. Congrats Bartok Fiend Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    552
    So sit idle while problems boil over and eventually lead to your own demise? And don't bother trying to change it, but rather cower while waiting for the next strike?

    nico, I don't think GWB is doing a good job in Iraq right now- but I don't think the very premise of courage is wrong. Rationalization is man's greatest tool, because every problem is inherantly rational and holds a rational solution.
     
  10. nico Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,122
    So sit idle while problems boil over and eventually lead to your own demise? And don't bother trying to change it, but rather cower while waiting for the next strike?


    It would have been fruitful for the US to sit idle in 1979 wouldn't you say. America is leading itself to demise can't blame anyone else for that. Next strike wtf are u talking about Strike of what? like the one of ignorance that hit the American ppl surely. You do realize that the invasion has even courted secular factions in the ME to join with the Islamic fanatics. Agaisnt you. The enemy of my enemy is my best friend.

    nico, I don't think GWB is doing a good job in Iraq right now- but I don't think the very premise of courage is wrong. Rationalization is man's greatest tool, because every problem is inherantly rational and holds a rational solution.

    Courage... lol your sad if you believe as such. The invasion of Iraq was cowardly, a super power vs. a defiled raped and pillaged nation. Rationalization of evil is wrong, hey I could rationalize just about anything. Shall we rationalize Hitler as well? So you don't feel guilty that is the purpose of rationalization.
     
  11. Unregistered The Original Conservative Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    206
    nico...

    ...I don't know what to say.
     
  12. nico Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,122
    ...I don't know what to say.

    THANK GOD! at least you recognize not to waste forum space thank you.
     
  13. Chagur .Seeker. Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,235
  14. Pakman Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    212
    Oil

    In order to understand the reasoning behind Iraq and how it personally benefited the Bush family, I am going to assume you understand at least a bit about the way international finances work, the stock market, oil prices and what they really mean etc.

    As a courtesy to me, since I am not going to bother with posting a lot of the background files and "proof" I would ask that you do some research on your own to verify what I am saying about the way politics and international finances work. None of what I say is my own opinion, but rather these are conclusions drawn from a preponderance of proof and evidence.

    First of all, know this; the Bush Family has ties to the Texas Oil Industry which goes back generations. They still have their fingers in a lot of the Texas Oil pies. ....mmmmm, pie!.... anyways, I digress. This war in Iraq directlty benefited the Bush family in many ways.

    1) By threatening to invade Iraq for months and months before he actually did it, Bush was able to drive up global oil prices artificially. This included Texas Oil prices as well. When Texan Oil is sold for more dollars per barrel because of the threat of impending war, and on throughout the war "Dubya" just gets richer since the prices are rising due to an intangible and not because of actual production or distribution costs. This means mega $$$ in pure, no-overhead profits which are amassed by stoking supply fears based on reduced Iraqi production.

    2 a) By Invading Iraq Bush was able to keep the economy on the back burner letting it sink lower and lower. This is good for Bush's policy of destabilization in the middle east. The middle east is one of the, if not the biggest consumer of weapons and munitions in the world. Every time one of those them goes on a rampage and decides to take over some other country or stockpile weapons, the cash registers in the USA ring with the ching-ching and bling-bling of profits. These profits are consolidated and built upon by having a weak national economy. I am not going to explain how Exporting works, but the worse the local economy is, the bigger the profits are. The USA is the biggest Arms Manufacturing and Exporting nation in the world. A goodly sized chunk of those arms end up in the middle east.

    2 b)Once the next regime is set up by Bush, they are going to need a shitload of weapons and munitions in order to "secure" their rule. Oh yeah, and the Bush family has a BUNCH of fingers in the Arms manufacturing pie as well... in case you didn't know. So the longer the economy suffers while rebuilding Iraq and giving the Rich the biggest tax breaks in decades, the more loot, ducats, and cheddar GWB rakes in for his family and his own personal coffers.

    3) GWB and Backers get to benefit from all the multi-billion dollar "rebuilding" contracts. Think of this as paying out on "campaign promises". This has been discussed already elsewhere, so I won't go into it here.

    Those are some of the reasons, but not all the reasons why Bush invaded Iraq. These reasons are closer to the real logic in Bush's mind than any others you probably know of. To recap, high oil prices mean millions to Bush in Texas Oil, poor economy boosts profits for the Arms exporters who count the Bush family as one of their own, invasion ensures a return on "campaign promises" to the lobbyists and backers of Bush's presidential campaign.
     
  15. nico Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,122
    The USA is the biggest Arms Manufacturing and Exporting nation in the world.

    Just to add on to that point:

    The US exported in 2002: $3,941,000,000 worth of arms.
    With a share of the arms trade from 1998-2002: 40.8%
    Meanwhile the US imports (in terms of arms): $346 million.

    If you take the three biggest arms importers in the ME (importations):

    Israel:$226 million
    Saudi Arabia:$478 million
    Egypt: $ 638 million

    most of those imports are from the US so let's say:

    $1,342 billion worth of arms alone, 1/3 of all US exports of arms. Lovely.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  16. Executor Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    104
    wow.

    Shuttup hippies, so smoke some more of the stupid weed.
    unreg is obviously trying to make people who support the war look bad by making a complete and total ass out of the ideology, it has nothing to do with what hes talking about, stupid hippy.

    "Shuttup weed isn't bad for u!"

    thats why you are 30 and work as a cashier in wal-mart.....
     
  17. Congrats Bartok Fiend Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    552
    Yeah, nico, that would be cowardly.

    If we had targeted Iraq's infrastructure intentionally, as a way of intimdating them into supporting us, if we had taken all of their oil without paying for it, if we had brought in an American dictatorship to rule every aspect of Iraqi life, diverting every penny back to the states, we would be cowards.

    If we had used Iraq to cover a personal scandal, we, our rather GWB, would be a coward.

    If we had destroyed Iraq, civilians and all, and reduced it to rubble, attempting to intimidate our enemies, we would be cowards.

    If we had been pressured into doing it by our allies who had wanted it done but didn't want the trouble, over threat of blackmail, we would be cowards.

    Yet, if we had made a deal with the Iraqis that stipulated attack if broken, and they had broken it, and we made good on the promise, deposing their despotic leadership, to eventually win, and begin to work for the Iraqi's benefit (albeit a few dollars short) and attempt to break the cycle of authoritarianism in the ME by forming a democracy, for our own benefit as well as theirs, we would not be cowards.

    Even if we awarded all of the contracts to American companies, we are not cowards, because we are merely benefitting off of a situation we have created, while hurting no one.

    Practically, this war may not have been in America's best interests, seeing as this insurgencey has occurred. Pre-emption may also be a flawed doctrine.

    However, the moral intent is not one of repression but of benefit. Evil must be proven, nico, and I would like to see you prove that a war in which the occupied and the occupier benefit is evil.

    You have made bizzare cases against Democracy in the ME, even for tyranny. I would like to see you skew some more facts and attempt to prove that this war was evil- a war that will end sanctions, tyranny, and religious persecution and open the floodgates of capital into Iraq.

    And as to arms-

    I don't see your point, at all.

    So the US has secured the arms market. People can buy arms anywhere, yet they buy them mostly from the US. We must have a lot of people very talented in making weapons.

    And 1/3 of those exports go to Israel, SA, and Egypt.

    ?
     
  18. guthrie paradox generator Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,089
    Oh for goodness sakes.

    "there is a common ground between selfless service and plunder."

    But how can you have selfless service if your doing it for your own gain? And no, there isnt common ground.



    "Personal gain is always a good thing, whether that be for one person or for an entire nation of people."

    Not if it comes at someoen elses expense.


    "Rationalization is man's greatest tool, because every problem is inherantly rational and holds a rational solution."

    What, you think Israel versus Palestine is rational?


    "we need capital to invest in Iraq's infrastructure, and following the logic that rge Us needs to give Iraqis more control, it only makes sense that we should use their resources to invest in their future. This, of coourse, does not preclude US funds, as that is our duty, but you need money before things can be rebuilt."

    Of course, but how does this tie in with your self interest thesis?
    You realise, a better way to rebuild Iraq in teh way the USA would liek it would be to give money to Iraqis to do the rebuilding themselves, as much as possible, thereby increasing employment, keeping the money in the country, etc.



    "Shuttup hippies, so smoke some more of the stupid weed.
    unreg is obviously trying to make people who support the war look bad by making a complete and total ass out of the ideology, it has nothing to do with what hes talking about, stupid hippy.

    "Shuttup weed isn't bad for u!"

    thats why you are 30 and work as a cashier in wal-mart....."

    Are you trying to dazzle us with your incredible incisive insights?
     
  19. nico Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,122
    Yeah, nico, that would be cowardly.

    if we had brought in an American dictatorship to rule every aspect of Iraqi life, diverting every penny back to the states, we would be cowards.


    You remember Saddam, this has been done.

    If we had used Iraq to cover a personal scandal, we, our rather GWB, would be a coward.


    Oh no rather Iraq was 5 years in the making, of course only the war not the peace. Stupidity and cowardess is full and free in the US.

    If we had destroyed Iraq, civilians and all, and reduced it to rubble, attempting to intimidate our enemies, we would be cowards.


    Yum!

    http://www.bushflash.com/occupied.html

    Enjoy, because the rest of your post was a waste.

    So the US has secured the arms market. People can buy arms anywhere, yet they buy them mostly from the US. We must have a lot of people very talented in making weapons.

    And 1/3 of those exports go to Israel, SA, and Egypt


    Obviously you know even less about this then Iraq. All three nations militaries are DOMINATED by American arms. All have "special relationships" with the US especially in terms of military expenditures. I am not saying anything about your imported talented ppl, but what I am saying is that the US is feeding the beast. In the case of Egypt and Israel it is the US who pays for their arms. It's all a cycle of money, and violence. Go learn something PLEASE!!
     
  20. DeeCee Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,793
    To drag this thread back to it's origins...
    Hey Reg
    I agree. Now go point a gun at an armed policeman and see what happens.
    Even better try pointing it at me

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!


    Dee Cee
     
  21. Congrats Bartok Fiend Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    552
    Yet if you point it at a policeman with no gun to point at you, and who has no intent of doing anything to you, you might as well poiny away!
     
  22. Unregistered The Original Conservative Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    206
    Just say 'no' to those dirty peace mongers...

    Executor

    Shuttup hippies, so smoke some more of the stupid weed.

    Excellent point.


    unreg is obviously trying to make people who support the war look bad by making a complete and total ass out of the ideology,

    I'm sorry If I misled you, because my ideology is pure pro war.



    it has nothing to do with what hes talking about, stupid hippy.

    Harsh but true.

    "Shuttup weed isn't bad for u!"

    thats why you are 30 and work as a cashier in wal-mart.....


    Again, harsh but true.

    guthrie

    Not if it comes at someoen elses expense.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    Are you trying to dazzle us with your incredible incisive insights?

    At least he was honest

    nicky

    In the case of Egypt and Israel it is the US who pays for their arms. It's all a cycle of money, and violence. Go learn something PLEASE!!

    The United States is attempting to stabilize the region of the Middle East by funding nations that promote healthy democracy in it's eyes, and by removing oppresive dictators. Go learn something please.

    Dee Cee

    Hey Reg
    I agree. Now go point a gun at an armed policeman and see what happens.
    Even better try pointing it at me
    Dee Cee


    I see what you are trying to say, and I agree with you full on. Every human being has the right of existence, not just me.

    'grats sums it up, too.




    unreg
     
  23. nico Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,122
    Please Unregister

    The United States is attempting to stabilize the region of the Middle East by funding nations that promote healthy democracy in it's eyes, and by removing oppresive dictators. Go learn something please.


    Is this stablization?

    $12 billion to Israel
    $2 billion to Egypt

    Fair, and balanced that is what you are

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    FOX NEWS wannabe.

    ME GO LEARN! OMG your too funny, Egypt is a democracy! LMFAO! Your a reject. Ohh Mubarak isn't oppressive, and Israel isn't oppressive on the Pals. Ohh yes peace and stablity AMERICAN STYLED.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     

Share This Page