Crumbling the Foundations of Christianity

Because they're following the error of Balaam?

<font color="red">2 Peter 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

2 Peter 2:13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;

2 Peter 2:14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:

2 Peter 2:15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

2 Peter 2:16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.

2 Peter 2:17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.


Jude 1:11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.


Revelations 2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.</font>

There's that "stumblingblock" thing again - funny how that keeps popping up, huh? But here it is implying that it is evil to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel. I'm inclined to agree with this point of view. Let's take a look at how "stumblingblock" is defined at the Blue Letter Bible site:

<font color="blue">4625 skandalon {skan'-dal-on} ("scandal")

probably from a derivative of 2578; TDNT - 7:339,1036; n n

AV - offence 9, stumbling block 3, occasion of stumbling 1, occasion to fall 1, thing that offends 1; 15

1) the movable stick or trigger of a trap, a trap stick
1a) a trap, snare
1b) any impediment placed in the way and causing one to stumble or fall, (a stumbling block, occasion of stumbling) i.e. a rock which is a cause of stumbling
1c) fig. applied to Jesus Christ, whose person and career were so contrary to the expectations of the Jews concerning the Messiah, that they rejected him and by their obstinacy made shipwreck of their salvation
2) any person or thing by which one is (entrapped) drawn into error or sin</font>

As a side note, this brings to mind a passage from Luke:

<font color="red">Luke 17:1 Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!

Luke 17:2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.</font>

But let's continue on - the stumblingblock was cast by Balac? Who or what is this "Balac"?

<font color="blue">904 Balak {bal-ak'}

of Hebrew origin 01111;; n pr m

AV - Balac 1; 1

Balak = "a devastator or spoiler"
1) a king of Moab</font>

And who taught this devastator or spoiler (king of Moab, which means "of his father"?) to cast stumblingstones? Balaam? Okay - so those who follow after the error of this "Balaam" character are in deep kimshee. That's good to know, but who or what does this "Balaam" represent? Let's take a look:

<font color="blue">903 Balaam {bal-ah-am'}

of Hebrew origin 01109; TDNT - 1:524,91; n pr m

AV - Balaam 3; 3

Balaam meaning "perhaps"
1) A native of Pethor a city in Mesopotamia, endued by Jehovah with prophetic power. He was hired by Balak to curse the Israelites; and influenced by the love of reward, he wished to gratify Balak; but he was compelled by Jehovah's power to bless them. Hence later the Jews saw him as a most abandoned deceiver.</font>

Wow! My head is spinning from all of these revelations! Next thing you know I'll be spewing green pea soup!

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Well Tony, is my message getting any clearer yet?

Emerald

 

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I can tell you one thing for sure, few Christians can see this, yet you glommed on to it right away.

This may be related to the concept of a "decision."
As you may know, the word "decision" is based on the Latin word for "cut."

Where there is a cut, there is the stuff on one side of the cutting device (let's call it a sword), and there is the stuff on the other side of the cut, with nothing in the middle.

Thus, "fence-sitting" in a situation like this is impossible.

Similarly, the end of everyone's life will be the result of a decision.

A decision for Jesus means you end up on the right side of the sword; a decision against Jesus puts you on the left, or wrong, side of the sword.

However, as you may have noticed, people aren't always quite this clear on various issues, and it may be difficult to see who is on which side of all of the issues.

Thus, the parables.

If you are paying attention, you get to understand.
OTOH, if you've got other, more pressing concerns than your own life, you might not pay as much attention, and you won't get to understand.

As an additional assist in the separation of one group from the other, there are such things as...
And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
(2 Thessalonians 2:10,11, KJV).

 

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This connection to Balaam is sure interesting.

I've seen this before, so it doesn't fall into the eye-opener category, but I've never seen quite this "spin" put on it .

The pea soup?
Spin first, then eat; it's neater.

Anyway, it looks like you're trying to get me to think that Balaam was casting Jesus in front of the children of Israel.
The implication there would be that there is only one single stumblingblock ever in existence throughout all time.

However, there is more than one stumblingblock. In fact, there are many...

Therefore thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will lay stumblingblock<u>s</u> before this people, and the fathers and the sons together shall fall upon <u>them</u>; the neighbour and his friend shall perish.
(Jeremiah 6:21, KJV).

It is unclear if there are many, how the one Balaam is casting would specifically be Jesus, particularly since the stumblingblock is described...

But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
(Revelation 2:14, KJV).

 

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Tony,

Here is what the word "fornication" means, according to the Blue Letter Bible site (please pay particular attention to the metaphorical meanings):

<font color="blue">4203 porneuo {porn-yoo'-o}

from 4204; TDNT - 6:579,918; v

AV - commit fornication 7, commit 1; 8

1) to prostitute one's body to the lust of another
2) to give one's self to unlawful sexual intercourse
2a) to commit fornication
3) metaph. to be given to idolatry, to worship idols
3a) to permit one's self to be drawn away by another into idolatry</font>

And what precisely is an idol?

<font color="blue">1497 eidolon {i'-do-lon}

from 1491; an image (i.e. for worship); TDNT - 2:375,202; n n

AV - idol 11; 11

1) an image, likeness
1a) i.e. whatever represents the form of an object, either real or imaginary
1b) used of the shades of the departed, apparitions, spectres, phantoms of the mind, etc.
2) the image of an heathen god
3) a false god</font>

And here is the word used for "things sacrificed unto idols":

<font color="blue">1494 eidolothuton {i-do-loth'-oo-ton}

neuter of a compound of 1497 and a presumed derivative of 2380;
TDNT - 2:378,202; adj

AV - things offered unto idols 4, things offered in sacrifice to idols 3, things sacrificed unto idols 2, meats offered to idols 1; 10

1) sacrificed to idols, the flesh left over from the heathen sacrifices
1a) it was either eaten at the feasts or sold (by the poor and the miserly) in the market</font>

But do Christians eat things offered to idols? I guess that depends on whether or not Jesus is a false god:

<font color="red">1 Corinthians 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

1 Corinthians 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

1 Corinthians 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

1 Corinthians 11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.</font>

I guess you'll have to decide for yourself whether or not the shoe fits, Tony.

Emerald

 

OK, I'll do that.

Can you indicate where the blood and bread are an instance of something sacrificed to idols?

BTW, the reference to the metaphorical meanings is a good one.

Of course, you would have to admit that your point rests on what an idol is.

 

Tony,

The word used doesn't necessarily indicate a sacrifice, as such, which is why I bolded the first meaning: <font color="blue"><b>things <u>offered</u> unto idols</b></font>. However, Jesus himself was a blood sacrifice and the bread and wine (or water) were supposed to symbolize his body and blood, and his followers eat this representation of his body and blood. I'm pretty sure this qualifies.

Absolutely. But I do believe we've already established that Jesus is at least sometimes worshipped as an idol (an <i>image</i>). So the religions that worship the <i>image</i> of Jesus are definitely following after the error of Balaam, right? (I'm pretty sure you will agree on this point, at least.)

Emerald

 

True, but the tie-in to Balaam is the sacrifice, rather than the offering.

But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
(Revelation 2:14, KJV).

It qualifies as a sacrifice to idols, only if Jesus is an idol.

Oddly enough, I do agree, provided that by "image," you mean a physical likeness, as in "graven image."
Catholicism being one such religion.

However, that does not mean that all worship of Jesus is idol worship.
It is interesting to see that you do notice differences between certain issues while at the same time working towards getting me to overlook those same differences.

 

Tony,

Do Christians eat the bread of wickedness, and drink the wine of violence? (Try not to think of the Inquisitions and the witch hunts, Tony. Those couldn't possibly be attributed to the worshippers of <i>Jesus</i>, since they were <i>Catholic</i> atrocities.

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)

<font color="red">Proverbs 4:12 When thou goest, thy steps shall not be straitened; and when thou runnest, thou shalt not stumble.

Proverbs 4:13 Take fast hold of instruction; let her not go: keep her; for she is thy life.

Proverbs 4:14 Enter not into the path of the wicked, and go not in the way of evil men.

Proverbs 4:15 Avoid it, pass not by it, turn from it, and pass away.

Proverbs 4:16 For they sleep not, except they have done mischief; and their sleep is taken away, unless they cause some to fall.

Proverbs 4:17 For they eat the bread of wickedness, and drink the wine of violence.

Proverbs 4:18 But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.

Proverbs 4:19 The way of the wicked is as darkness: they know not at what they stumble.</font>

Beasts and images of beasts keep coming to mind, along with Inquisitions and witch hunts...

<font color="red">Revelations 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Revelations 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

Revelations 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

Revelations 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

Revelations 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Revelations 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.</font>

The only beast I know of who is purported to have had a deadly would by a sword (or spear?) and lived was Jesus. Therefore, Jesus is the beast spoken of in Revelations. Putting 2 and 2 together, I'm thinking that the image of the beast is also an image of Jesus.

Emerald

 

OK, I won't.
So, the answer to your question is, no.

Of course, verse 14 tells us that we are looking at the path of the wicked. Verse 17 describes things applying to that path.
Verse 18 tells us the path of the just is different.

You might be putting 1.63 and 1.19 together.

It was a head wound, and I'm fairly sure that Jesus had only one head.

And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
(Revelation 13:3, KJV).

Not only that spears are so rarely confused with swords, that I think you might stretching things a wee bit to try to make this fit.
In any case, the spear wound was to his side...

But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
(John 19:34, KJV).

 

Obviously, the word "head" is being used metaphorically here (unless you really believe that the world will be forced to worship a 2-headed beast?). Let's see what clues the concordance might provide:

<font color="blue">2776 kephale {kef-al-ay'}

from the primary kapto (in the sense of seizing); TDNT - 3:673,429; n f

AV - head 76; 76

1) the head, both of men and often of animals. Since the loss of the head destroys life, this word is used in the phrases relating to capital and extreme punishment.
2) metaph. anything supreme, chief, prominent
2a) of persons, master lord: of a husband in relation to his wife
2b) of Christ: the Lord of the husband and of the Church
2c) of things: the corner stone</font>

Wow! This is looking more and more like another one of those truths hidden right out in the open, huh Tony?

Emerald

 

Seven heads

Given that it is 7 heads rather than two, then who are the other 6?

In any case...
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
(Revelation 13:8, KJV).

Since all that dwell on the earth worship the beast, it can't be Jesus, since among others, you don't worship him.

 

Tony,

Could this be related to the seven churches [Ephesus,
Smyrna, Pergamos, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea)? Just a thought...

Emerald

 

I would not believe a word of scripture if the Holy catholic Church of Rome had not told me too.

Of course you think that my submission to a higher AUTHORITY to be absurd. I believe BECAUSE it is absurd to those who live according to the falsehoods of the Modern-world veiw (along with its Evolutionist doctrine).

The CHurch will never crumble, because the Christ gave his guarentee when he bestowed all power on Heaven and Earth to St Peter, adding "YOU ARE THE ROCK upon which I shall build my Church, and the GATES OF HELL SHALL NOT HOLD OUT AGAINST HER. MATT. 16: 18

IN other Words, WE the CHURCH WILL CRUSH your ancient serpent who whispers:
"An ye harm none, do what ye will."

No, SATAN, I know your works. DO the WILL OF GOD: Love.

 

Lawdog,

I cannot disagree to your charge that I find your submission to a <i>higher authority</i> to be absurd. On this point you speak truly. The foundation upon which the Catholic Church was built is undoubtedly about as substantial as the clouds in which your savior will allegedly return. (We've been on pins and needles awaiting this promised event for the past 2000 years - it's bound to occur at any moment now.

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) Click on the link below to read the entire article from which the following excerpt was taken. I'm sure you will find it interesting.

<font color="blue"><a href="http://www.americanatheist.org/aut99/T1/zindler.html"><b>Upon this Rock... The Founding of Mendacianity</b></a>

I think a "yawn" icon would be appropriate here. Do you have one of those in your repertoire, Dave W?

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That's not the first time I've been called Satan here, and it probably won't be the last. I guess that's the best Christians can offer when confronted with evidence that threatens to destroy their carefully constructed illusions. I am not impressed, Lawdog.

This is a whole 'nuther subject, and one best saved for another thread (or at least another post). If you're referring to Jehovah (aka, Yahweh) as "God", there is plenty of biblical evidence that "love" and "the will of God" are diametrically opposing concepts. The very idea that the will of God is love causes me to convulse with laughter.

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'til I can gain control again,

Emerald

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Emerald ...,

Y'know, I just don't get it.

I just don't get it.

I just don't get it.

What the hell is this?

How easy is it to call one's Legions to arms against those who find no glory even in our own violent, druidic heritage? How easy is it to threaten violence against those who see no reason for violence?

This form of hatred puzzles me: to threaten a Witch with violence creates the paradox whereby the Witch must decide to pull the Jedi victory and allow their own destruction, or nullify the rede in defence of the self. To the narrower Christian idea, this seems to be the catbird seat, for the Christian either eliminates a portion of the culture which their superstition finds disagreeable, or else can then point out the folly of a hypocritical rede. On that latter note, however, I believe the Bible already accounts for one who accuses in this manner. Could it be ....?

What is it about the Love of IHVH that is so wretchedly terrible? Wait, wait, wait ... I remember. You tried exploring that angle, but apparently you weren't being fair when you asserted a correletion 'twixt the christos and the lucifer because you didn't accept the Bible blindly before you read it.

But I just don't get it: what the hell was that? Were you or I to say that to a Christian, we'd be hauled downtown for being a dangerous cult. It's not like I'm speechless, obviously. But how's that dose of Christian love?

Jesus H. Baldhead Motherhumpin' Christ! What hast thou wrought upon this world! Next time, take the bloody train!

Once upon a time I told Lori an odd story about the time I met a sad Jesus in a dream. Need that sadness any more explanation than Lawdog's hateful ... hatred? The second coming will consist of five words: I bled for you, dammit!

How's your calligraphy? I think we should officially pen an invitation to the Wise Son to abandon his heavenly abode and take a season in the Summerland. And then we'd see whether Christians are supposed to dance. A conga line: J-E-S-U-S-Christ! Dear Jesus: How about some rhythm and sunshine to bring back that healthy glow?

rhythm & spirit,
Tiassa

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Dear Emerald,

You can play the Devil all you want, but there's also reality. You are an Eternal Soul.

I read over what you and that biblical writer put forth reguarding Peter as the Rock. There were some very good arguements. It appears that he is saying that there are no other references to Peter's authority in scripture than the "thou art the Rock" episode. It would seem this is a good thing, since it is a hard task to subject ones own interpretations and ideas to the authority such as the Church, an institution. It would seem that its best for each man to interprete scripture as he/she needs to for that person, since God speaks to us in so many different ways, why shouldnt their be so many different ways of finding the real meanings of Jesus's teachings?

As far as his claim that the early Church Fathers did not recognize Rome: upon examination however, you will find that St. Ireneus as early as the first century after Christ speaks of the supremacy of the Roman Church over the whole civilization of Love.

God has a government for us because we need one. If God wanted everyone to read the bible their own way, why didnt he instruct the Apostles to start handing out bibles?

Here are but a few things from scripture which, contrary to your author's veiw, show the importance of Peter and a singular true Church.


Papacy & Infallibility


Peter always mentioned first, as foremost apostle.
Matthew 10:1-4
And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean
spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. Now the
names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his
brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and
Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was
Thaddaeus; Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.

Mark 3:16-19
And Simon he surnamed Peter; And James the son of Zebedee, and John the brother of James;
and he surnamed them Boanerges, which is, The sons of thunder: And Andrew, and Philip, and
Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and
Simon the Canaanite, And Judas Iscariot, which also betrayed him: and they went into an house.

Luke 6:14-16
Simon, (whom he also named Peter,) and Andrew his brother, James and John, Philip and
Bartholomew, Matthew and Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon called Zelotes, And
Judas the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor.

Acts 1:13
And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and
James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son
of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James.

Luke 9:32
But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they
saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.

Peter speaks for the apostles.
Mark 8:29
And he saith unto them, "But whom say ye that I am?" And Peter answereth and saith unto him,
"Thou art the Christ."

Luke 12:41
Then Peter said unto him, "Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?"

John 6:68-69
Then Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal
life. And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God."

Pentecost: it was Peter who first preached.
Acts 2:14-40
But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, "Ye men of
Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words; For
these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that
which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
'And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh:
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your
old men shall dream dreams' [...]
Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom
ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ."
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of
the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" Then Peter said unto them, "Repent, and be
baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall
receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all
that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call." And with many other words did
he testify and exhort, saying, "Save yourselves from this untoward generation."

Peter worked first healing.
Acts 3:6-7
Then Peter said, "Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus
Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk." And he took him by the right hand, and lifted him up: and
immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength.

That the Gentiles were to be baptized was revealed to Peter.
Acts 10:46-48
For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, "Can any man
forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as
we?" And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to
tarry certain days.

Simon is Cephas (Aramaic: Kepha for rock).
John 1:42
And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, "Thou art Simon the son of
Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas", which is by interpretation, 'A stone'.

"Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church.... the keys of the kingdom of
heaven..."
Matthew 16:18-19
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the
gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of
heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou
shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Keys (in Matthew 16:19, above) as symbol of authority - and especially authority over the
house of David.
Isaiah 22:22
And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall
shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.

Revelations 3:7
And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is
true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man
openeth;

Revelations 1:18
I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys
of hell and of death.

"Feed my sheep" - Peter is to act as a shepherd.
John 21:15-17
So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more
than these?" He saith unto him, "Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee." He saith unto him,
"Feed my lambs." He saith to him again the second time, "Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me?
He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because
he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all
things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

"Simon ... strengthen your brethren".
Luke 22:31-32
And the Lord said, "Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you
as wheat: But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted,
strengthen thy brethren."

"Vicars" (substitutes) of Christ.
Luke 10:1-2, 16
After these things the LORD appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his
face into every city and place, whither he himself would come. Therefore said he unto them,
"The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest,
that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.... He that heareth you heareth me; and he that
despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me."

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that
receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

2 Corinthians 5:20
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in
Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Galatians 4:14
And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an
angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.

Acts 5:1-5
But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession, And kept back part
of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles'
feet. But Peter said, "Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to
keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it
was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou
hast not lied unto men, but unto God." And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up
the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.

Humans can be holy (as in "Holy Father"; cf. "call no one holy").
Mark 6:20
For Herod feared John, knowing that he was a just man and an holy, and observed him; and when
he heard him, he did many things, and heard him gladly.

Luke 1:70
As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began...

Acts 3:21
Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken
by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Ephesians 3:5
Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his
holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Colossians 1:22
In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in
his sight:

 

Re: Emerald ...,

Tiassa,

Ah, but that's different. You see, <i>they</i> have the one and only <i>truth</i>, and we are blind fools who are being deceived by Ssssaaataaan.

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I'm thinking that Lawdog probably longs for the good ol' days when they just took us Witches and other heretics out and hung us, or burned us at the stake, or pressed us with stones, and were done with it - but only after a fair trial, of course.

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Of course, you must understand their rationale - "if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell." (Matthew 5:30) That's just how they think - kind of Neanderthal and all, but there you have it. Perhaps you might take some comfort in the fact that, like the Neanderthal, hateful, warlike people are destined to become extinct.

Peace

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Emerald

 

witches

Dear Emerald,

Although it is written in our Holy Scriptures: "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live", The Church in her wisdom and pervaded by the mercy of God, no longer confirms this doctrine as appropriate for our time.

Therefore thank the Church and her Authority in Christ, knowing that you are only worthy of Hell, as are most of rest of us. For if those who interprete scripture for themselves were in charge, as they were at Salem, we would be sorrowing over your condemned eternal soul.

As it is, salvation is still open to you, as is holiness (sanctification), provided you embrace holy mother Church, knowing the Truth.

 

Lawdog, go wash your mouth!

On the one hand, it's actually because people just won't put up with it anymore. Oh, wait ... Hitler, Pol Pot, Bosnia ... wasn't there an attempted genocide on this continent? Oh, well, we have precedent from the most sterling portion of our human race: religionists. Okay, so the people seem to like it; since Western culture is such a dominant social force, and since that Western culture derives the bulk of its philosophical heritage from a genocidal religion, I suppose there's something to that good old American bloodlust.

* Analogy: Consider what would have happened if Congress passed a flag-burning amendment. Personally, I'd love to see the people shocked when the court hears the titanic Constitution-against-itself argument and then rules in favor of the later amendent because that's how things work. What part of "Thou shalt not kill" did God throw out? "Except anyone you think might possibly have the slimmest chance in Hell of being a Witch?" That's some nice consistency there. Apparently, the commandment just wasn't effective in society.

Even Thomas Hobbes, the brilliant oaf responsible for Leviathan noted that the Witches deserve the tortures they receive at the hands of men. Lawdog! You're a few centuries late clocking in on this one. As Emerald noted, something about setting people on fire.

You know, we're only in this mess, where the Christians are obliged by law to respect other faiths, because Christians couldn't get their shite straight back when Europe was the object of their hatred. When, since the time of the Apostolic Fathers, have Christians not been persecuting? Answer: Such a time does not exist. The religious refugees who fled to this continent bear two relevant characteristics:

* They were Chrsitians persecuted by other Christians.
* They could not wait to persecute and destroy.

We could add persecutory competition with Catholics to that, except I think Maryland Protestants won all when they flooded the Catholic colony under the Religious Toleration Act and immediately upon gaining a majority began the political and social persecution of Catholocism. That goofy ol' King George ...

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Why is it so preferable to Christianity that it should take its problems out on other people instead of get its shite together?

And here we find the problem at its simplest. Christianity by such ideas guarantees that it will bring out the worst in people. All of the positive, life-oriented psychology in the world will not break the child's fear of an eternal God and the idea that the child is a worthless sinner by nature of birth.

And that's a nice endorsement of murder, there.

Like I said, the worst in people.

And bang her senseless. Mother Church needs a few screaming orgasms right now.

Alright, Lawdog ... I officially aim my Tony1 charge at you: Provocateur. To the one, I must thank you for providing such a springboard as you did with your silly ex nihilo and all-powerful/all-good bit. But you are such a shining example of why Christianity will be the death of humanity if not contained and studied like a disease; of why it's more than a little difficult taking you seriously. It's also abstractly frightening. You have promised violence against those you choose to call your enemies. You have endorsed murder. Come on ... what the hell is your problem, man?

Get serious psychological attention before you hurt someone. Or else drop the provocateur act because surviving among Christians is a dumb enough affair without fueling the myriad fires such irresponsibility historically invokes.

You know, people at this site used to tell me this brand of Christianity was an invention of my fancy.

Let me also point out to Sir Loone that this is exactly what violent metaphors invoke when charged with the authority of God. What a mess, this house of God. Clean yourselves up and leave the rest of society alone until you do. Sword of the Spirit, My Ass.

But bring on the Holy Fire. I have no obligation to God to turn the other cheek, yet I am strongly inclined to: martyrdom would be well worth the definitive demonstration that the God of the Christians is truly dead. If the poison of this religion went away, and spared future generations its hateful miseries: yeah, it's worth it.

Bring on the Fire.

We'll bring the harmony.

--Tiassa

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Re: witches

Lawdog,

That's mighty <i>Christian</i> of you, Lawdog.

Yeah, I'll get right on it, Lawdog. I'm curious as to what Tony1 would have to say about your "holy mother Church". It might be amusing just to sit back and watch the two of you duke it out over that one.

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Emerald