Crumbling the Foundations of Christianity

Irenaeus? Ha!

And the Bishop of Lyons is really a bright point in the Christian intellect, isn't he? Why, according to Irenaeus, could there be four and only four Gospels of his Lord? Because there are only four principal winds, only four corners of the Universe, only four pillars holding up the sky .... (Pagels, Origin of Satan, 69)

Irenaeus is responsible for the most part of that heresy thing, too. And the heretics among Christians during his appointment pretty much included everyone who disagreed with him. Irenaeus was, at best, an irresponsible or misguided theologian; at worst, a politician.

Strange how the subsequent generations of faithful seem to have concentrated on the "supremacy" part and forgotten much of Love.

--Tiassa

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WITCHCRAFT IS NOT A RELIGION

TIASSA: People will not put up with it? What do you mean? Do you think its no longer going on, or its about to stop? Its the story of the human race. Hitler was mild compared to some of the guys in the Old Testament.

For example, read 3-4 Kings and the story of Elijiah against Jezebel. He had 900 pagan priests beheaded just for worshiping BAAL! And he's one of our HOLIEST SAINTS! HOLY MOLY, what could this mean?

It means that idolatry is a crime worthy of death. Yet today, its a crime that is considered legit and unoffensive...to who? humans?

Witchcraft, by the way, should not be called a religion, because it does not "bind" you to the divine, but to the demons and the dead. It is magic, which seeks to control and master the materia and spirits.

Religion, on the other hand, is homage to a god, thanksgiving, propitiation, beseeching, and trying to make up for wrong deeds.

The ancient pagans understood this. Neo-pagans and witches are a distortion.

So what you are doing is a crime, in just about any culture. Have you cut off any baby toes lately? Sacrificed any dogs? Dont tell me youre worshipping the Earth, I know all about that. If you truly worshipped the Earth you would need to offer human sacrifices, like the ancient Minoans.

The Earth is both a taker(death) and a giver (abundance) in the myths. All Cthonic Earth deities, like Medusa (death goddess), is associated with evil. Death is an evil. The ancients knew this.

So its not religion, not even as you would call the religion of the Ancient cultures and their Wisdom traditions. The ancient Romans, traditional African religion and others such as Indian, all hate witches. Their natural Religion is all they have, and it allows them to offer sacrifices that are just and pious in respect to what they understand about the divine. They cant really be blamed. You are blamable, working the iniquitous amid unclean spirits for personal power.

Forgive me if this sounds all so harsh, but I know, and since I am an expert, I want you to know what youve gotten yourself into. I also was once a student of occult doctrines.

As a Catholic, I dont hate witches, I love them, but their sin must be exposed. If I didnt love souls like yours, I would bother writing all this out, since I have such little time.

 

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Lo dawg ...

Lawdog,

I realize you haven't much time and all, what with the pressing reality of being translated if you stray too near any elevated platform. But I thought I might borrow some of your precious time and instruct you, oh master of masters.

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<i>Originally posted by Lawdog:</i>
Witchcraft, by the way, should not be called a religion, because it does not "bind" you to the divine, but to the demons and the dead. It is magic, which seeks to control and master the materia and spirits.
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Exactly which textbook on witchcraft have you been reading? You didn't mistakenly grab that one on Satanism? Great Scott! There's the rub behind all of your misguided attempts to define witchcraft.

"And ye harm no one, do what ye will" is an adage which many Wiccans adopt. <i>Cutting off toes???</i> Pshaw! Seriously. Perhaps if you spent less time hiding under your rock and a little more time out in "Actual Reality" you might come across dominant forms of witchcraft which <b>didn't</b> involve sacrifice, animal or human. But, no. You being the expert you are and all, see no reason why you should revamp your style of thinking or at least check your facts.

And communicating with the dead <i>is a bad thing</i>, you're saying? So, when someone dies in your family, I mean the instant they pass, you automatically think, "Filthy soul, get thee hence!" Kind of like the mentality which states that anything sexual is impure and filthy <i><b>unless</b></i> you're married. And here I was under the impression that Christ had <i><b>died</b></i> and then came back to life and then visited the <b>dead</b> in the interim. But, according to you Lawdog, that's pretty terrible.

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Death is an evil. The ancients knew this.
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Hmm. Who was it again that introduced death into the world? Oh, that's right, God. I don't think either Adam or Eve had that kind of power, but God sure did. Evil God. But the ancients knew that, apparently. Hey, did you know the ancients knew a lot of other things as well? They knew about mathematics and astronomy and precise calculations. Only, unfortunately, your religion can't take credit for that. Chalk up that kind of knowledge to the Sumerians and Egyptians.

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Forgive me if this sounds all so harsh, but I know, and since I am an expert, I want you to know what youve gotten yourself into. I also was once a student of occult doctrines.
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That's kind of like those empty-disclaimers "Hey, I love you and all, but you have to die ..." You were once a student of occult doctrines? Like believing in a heliocentric outlook on astronomy? Or, believing that witches need to be purged from the Earth? Or, believing that the beheading of 900 pagan priests was wholly justified even though it basically meant that they thought differently? Those kind of occult doctrines?

Go back and read history from the losers' perspective and see if your mind can be dislodged from its dogmatic rut.

prag

 

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What is wrong with you, Lawdog?

Obviously you didn't read the rest of the paragraph. Do that, and then try again, if you choose. I also love the notion of justification because other people have done it worse: by your definition, Ted Bundy's an OK guy when we stop and consider the recently-late Mr McVeigh.

The kind of hatred you've documented with your example is well alive today. I ask you what I'm wondering of Loone: What the hell is wrong with "Thou shalt not kill"? Is it too much effort for you warring brutes?

It would seem that it means that you approve of such murderous lust. Ah, the hatred ... thou shall not kill another human, though we'll make exceptions in the case of the Witches. All it really means is that you would justify your hatred by calling it an empowered tradition that is your right. Gee, and people thought I was making it up when I accused Christianity of such potential.

And what of the graven images of Catholocism: the worship of saints and icons? What is the Bible but a graven image of God? Furthermore, we might cut straight to a point more vital than your raging, shallow hypocrisy and ill-calculated lies: that of moral superiority. The superiority one assumes when claiming an anthology of legend, speculation, and superstition governs the conduct of the human world emerges only by the demand of a deep psychological stress that comes from choosing to limit oneself among those things they envy in other people. Why have people chosen to ignore such stupid "laws" as idolatry prohibitions? Because to Catholocism, everything not Catholic has historically been pagan, idolatrous, heretical, or otherwise warranting of death. Christianity in general still persecutes, but rarely takes mortal action because people no longer see murder as noble; cultural diversity has shattered the mortal stronghold of Christian hatred. Should I guess those pacifist Quakers are going to Hell because they won't murder someone in the name of Jesus' love? Stop making excuses for your hatred and let it go. At best, you will only hurt yourself; at worst, you will hurt someone else. Of course, we recognize that the important thing here is whether or not you get a chance at the glory of saving their soul, but it would be more appropriate if you took that childish need to gain your parents' approval at the stake of others' wellbeing and stuffed it where the sun seldom shines.

Fine with me. If religion means the sacrifice of the intellect and the forfeiture of the soul to eternal slavery, then I guess that makes me not religious. Maybe you just need to think for yourself: you very badly seem to want a master to eliminate the horrible responsibility of making decisions.

Then Witchcraft is a religion. Oh, wait ... I guess it's not because it doesn't pay homage to what you think God is. (Bloody egocentric Christians ....) Look, just because it's more important to a Witch to heal the divisions 'twixt themselves and other people, as opposed to apologizing to God for what you've done to other people, seems to be the point. What's the matter? Are Christians really that afraid of other people?

Given that you advocate (and quite poorly) Christianity, it seems that the best you could hope for is to be a hypocrite: you have described Christianity more accurately.

What about you? Have you wounded any goats and sent them to the desert? Eaten any human flesh and consumed the blood? Have you ripped the unborn from the womb to celebrate the triumphant power of your God? How about killed a man for coitus interruptus? Is your wife a leaky faucet that goes drip-drip-drip? Don't tell me about forgiveness, peace, harmony, or any of those things that Christians come to slay. As to your ignorance of pagan religions, hey, at least the Witches are learning. Sounds to me like you're about as Catholic as the fourteenth century. Strangely, though, the best tales of savage witchery come from authors like Mathers and Barrett, whose work centered around the god of the tetragrammaton IHVH. Thus it could be that you're accepting the propagandous projection of blame by wicked Christian sorcerers against the Craft. If I truly worshipped the Earth: Why don't you fill me in on that theory--How does murder honor anything but the petty God that demands it? Human sacrifice, such as that witnessed throughout Catholic--and also Protestant--history generally is performed under the contrived justification that God, in his mercy, should torture and kill people for being exactly what he created. Really, that's quite the theological conundrum: To worship the Earth, one must commit murder--now, justify it, else drop it.

According to what source, O writer of myths? I'm sorry you fear the "evil" of death. It's a bummer, sure, but it's also part of life, and your final mortal contribution to the Earth from whence you rose.

Well, that's just specific. You have claimed yourself an expert: please demonstrate, O writer of myth. It is quite obvious that you do not know, since your scurrilous representations of paganism have little justifiable historical basis. Furthermore, the wholesale hypocrisy of your brand of Christianity has demonstrated that if there's one thing you haven't studied enough, it's your own faith. O writer of myths, O thou who would wish ill upon thy neighbor, O thou hater of life: What, pray tell, is your unholy problem?

As a Catholic, you are incapable of love: you are, doctrinally, capable only of Catholocism. If you transcend your doctrine, you are not a Catholic. However, it's easy to transcend Catholic doctrine: pick a Bible quote, misinterpret it, and presto! you have justification in your own mind. (Don't worry, you have two-thousand years of historical precedent to support your actions in this.) In the meantime, and on behalf of those you've threatened with mortal violence: We thank you for your love. But since it's so damn insincere, save yourself the effort of expending your hard-wrought love.

--Tiassa

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Re: What is wrong with you, Lawdog?

I am sorry that I angered you. I have studied witchcraft and i know its philosophy and purpose. I am only trying to inform you that the evil of witchcraft is has a long history.

Execution and war when commanded by our God is obligatory. Yet He did not bring Death into the World, Adam did and his descendants continue the legacy.

I am not going to answer all your objections at this time, since I do not have the time. You do not understand the doctrines of our Faith.

 

Re: Re: What is wrong with you, Lawdog?

All those years of Catholic school down the drain, huh Tiassa? Bummer, dude.

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Emerald

 

Not entirely, Emerald

On the one hand, I know. It's amazing, huh?

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At least it was Jesuits: they have an appreciation for natural science. It could have been much, much worse, but to be honest, I asked my parents to go to that school because I was flunking out of public school. (Not quite, but it was imminent.) Had it been much dumber, they wouldn't have sent me. (In fact, the only reason it was a consideration at all was that two of my dad's friends were football coaches at the school, and though not Catholic, they sent their children to the school.)

To the other, I did learn one valuable thing: After it became known that I wasn't a Christian, and I gained the superstitious crown of Satan himself, I learned a great deal about arbitrary authority. (It was nice: I could stop fights with a look. Many students were mortally afraid of me.) But it was also effing stupid. I learned why respect should not come at a fixed price. It's just boring: I have no desire to control people because fear is palpable--the whole Satan-period left a sick taste in my mouth.

So it's tough for me to say that such a stupid Catholic superstition as the Devil has never done anything for the world. It did a world of Good for me. It liberated me from both, the God and its holy Devil.

But no, in three years of theology, mass, and the occasional forced prayer did I learn anything about the people I went to school with and how they felt about God. Maybe it's something about the nature of communication among Catholics ....

thanx,
Tiassa

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Re: What is wrong with you, Lawdog?

First, remember that we confess the immortality of the soul, it is made for God in Eternity. Human death and tragedy becomes a secondary but not unimportant consideration. All else pales in comparison to the importance of the soul's final resting place. Therefore, since the soul is being tested upon the Earth in this life, so that it may recieve the Truth, Christ, and merit Heavenly reward in the next, torture and death do not compare to utterances of untruth. We should be willing to die rather than tell a lie.
McVeigh, regardless of his sins in life and his status among men, may still enter blessedness for having recieved Christ as his last act, truly being sorrowful, be we will not know until the JUDGEMENT.

You do not have grounds to judge me as a hater of persons, only a hater of sin, falshood and heresy revealed to me by Holy Mother Church in her condemnations of occult. It is wrong to say that i am incapable of Love. I have only spoken against your false practices, not against your person.

Moral superiority? We do not attribute this to ourselves, but to the grace of God. It is God who is morally superior, we are only his unworthy servants.

We do not worship graven images. Such an acxcusation is a holdover from the remnants of Protestantism, a heresy which has failed and is now being supplanted by occultists like yourself.

We venerated the Holy Images, asking them to pray for us before God, but we give adoration, thanksgiving and worship only to God.

As far as historical dirty laundry goes, only God knows the Truth about what has transpired. Much, I know, is anti-catholic propaganda.

I hope you will reconsider turning back to the LOVING GOD that rules the universe. He has condemned witchcraft. You dont like this and find reasons to disagree. Nevertheless, He is the Eternal and unchanging Lord of Hosts. His power is beyond comprehension.

We do not always know why he has done the things he has done. I, for my part, find several teachings difficult to endure, but I accept them out of Love for the one who created me. This does not make me morally superior, since it is God who has given me the strength to maintain my Faith.

Remember that this Age we live in has long since been prophesied by our HOLY PROPHETS including the Christ himself (read MaTT 23-25. It is the Age of AntiChrist Spirit. You are being seduced by that spirit to denounce HOLY FAITH as outdated and even violent, unaware of the Holiness and power of God. Evil powers are manipulating what is being pumped into the minds of everyone. It is the MATRIX. Watch that film, and understand that the Catholics are the ones outside of the matrix (but not all-there are wolves amid the flock)

This is not paranoia. Witchcraft is on the rise, its all over TV, because people are looking for an alternate spirituality. This is a preparation for the coming AntiChrist who will put you under his power.

Do not be Antichristian. It is better to remain unconvinced but open to the spiritual power of God and Mary the Mother of God. To be in a bad way is to put yourself in the power of the Devil, who wishes only to decieve you and destroy you.

Study the questions about the Faith which you would need to know. learn about witchcraft also, but do not practice it.

Remember, God made the Earth and all that is therein, you will realize this the next time you see a sunset. Do not worship the creation, but the creator.

Finally, it is true that we are right. You cannot understand this now, since grace has not come to you for that, but be assured, our Faith is from Heaven. We do not misinterprete scripture since the Church cannot fail with the power of the Holy Spirit guiding the Bishops and Holy Father.

I will pray for you, and again, I am sorry that my harsh but loving teachings have upset you.

 

We believe you Lawdog ... sure

A) Right: you threatened a culture. You endorsed murder.

B) What I love about your declaration that you have studied witchcraft is simply the idea that, What? Did neither Emerald nor the MoonCat nor Tiassa give enough of a damn to "study" witchcraft?

C) In another post, you wrote:

I will here borrow a notion from the Christians: But did you ever live it? I mean, it's a tremendously liberating thing to understand the reasons for your morality, instead of simply obeying your superstitious fears.

And on superstition, I might note: the heritage of the Craft is not free from superstition. Truly, the cultures of old that bring us the tales of Ys, Tir na Og, and the Triune Mother were not free of superstitious fear. Yet something about that heritage has, apparently, accepted the course of time and living: knowledge is the key to rhythm and harmony. We do not fear scientific progress: with our knowledge of the natural universe grows our allegorical representation to the atheist, or our knowledge of the secret Universe to the Witch. When the Universe grows, so do we. Superstition is something Witches loathe; certain of those we keep around have a psychological value, and this we recognize. Also there lies within some of those superstitions an inkling of history, and possibly of truth no matter how obscured.

You've heard, I'm sure, of the Witches' infamous flying brew? The one reputed to contain the fat of a slain, unbaptized infant? (Note the baptismal superstition there: this is an interesting clue to where such silly notions come from.) Modern science tells us we can make this same flying ointment in our kitchens, sans infanticide. Why? Because the magickal property of the flying ointment was not the baby fat: it was the hashish. The clove helped, but the hashish pretty much did the trick. How does one fly? Say a prayer to set the psychology, smear the ointment on the temples and on the forehead, where you have a rich bloodstream. The clove will irritate and then numb the skin, and the hashish will go right in. (Why is there fiberglass in Skoal? To irritate the gumline and allow greater nicotine access to the bloodstream.) If it's good enough hashish, you'll fly. And this knowledge is hardly new. Given that this centuries-old tradition is common witchly knowledge, I'm wondering just what occult you studied so rigorously.

And that's exactly what makes Christianity a detriment to society. It's not about you any more than it's about me. It's about every one of us in the world, whether you give a damn or not, and that's a lot of people not to give a damn about.

What would you have done unto your brethren, regardless of what you think or believe about them?

Hey, you're Catholic: What, God didn't expect this? Whatever happened to the Perfect Knowledge and the Immutable Will? Don't you get it yet that what nearly two millennia of dogmatic philosophy has accomplished is to demonstrate the fallacy of Christian superstitions, and give the lie to its puerile declarations of Good News?

I understand no more about your doctrines than you do about demonstrable reality and the consequences of doctrinal faith. You have noted your murderous obligations: it truly does seem the perfect license to hate.

A) Confession of the immortality of the soul: Point of faith. You cannot demonstrate this immortality of the soul. As you have noted the importance of the soul's resting place, I might note that the combination of these two principles is dangerous.
B) Tested: The best possible scenario I can construct returns to an old concept I mentioned here ages ago in which the Universe is, essentially, a computer program. It's meant mostly as an illustrative concept, but I now see that Christians have been long aware of the beta version. Only if you're a good enough program will you be carbonized. Of course, the problems with the beta versions is bad source code, and there's nobody to blame but the Master Programmer. Such a test of the soul is an oafish farce built by a cruel spirit.
C) Willing to die instead of lie: Well, since you've endorsed murder, I guess I'm impressed.

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* God loves you. That's why you're so important someone can blow you up and be rewarded: because your cruel fate lends to the glory of God in a manner too complex for your infantile perception. Just be happy to serve the Lord.

Sorry, I consider the execution of human beings for mere philosophical differences hateful. You have endorsed this hate. Don't even try to make excuses. Rather, go ahead: you haven't much--if any--credibility left, so make what stupid excuses you may.

And what really cheeses me is that you endorse murder because you think it'll get you closer to God! What the hell business is it of yours what state someone's soul is in? God made that person a Witch: who do you think you are to correct God? Or are you just petitioning for your pathetic, meager, unimportant soul?

You have threatened to attempt to stamp out a culture. To the one, how very Catholic. To the other ... no, there is historical precedent. There is no other in this case. Is this truly the result of Catholocism? Funny, I used to hear so much about how the violent, hateful ones were a minority, but apparently it's the most part of Catholocism? That's an impressive minority!

Who ride your high-horses as if you were the almighty himself ... I mean, you read a collection generally composed of superstition, accept it as your reality, and then presume to correct other people's perceptions of reality? That is a delusion of moral superiority, as morality is apparently a vital currency to some. (I know, it's easier to say your God is morally superior; it's easier than actually having to behave in a morally superior fashion.)

Ri-ight

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I gotcha.

To the other, it seems we're doing you a favor, then. Lighten up, Torquemada.

You know ... I make it a point to tune out when a Seventh-Day Adventist lectures me on the evils of Catholocism. In other words, I'm quite aware of the propaganda. However, that doesn't excuse the bulk of that historical dirty laundry, which is legitimate wickedness upon the Earth. There's no getting around the history of the Church and the terrible ideas it unleashed in Europe.

Look back through the religious archives. I know, there's a lot of them, but I'm actually hoping to keep you busy for a while; the world is safer then. But therein you will find, somewhere, tales of my encounter with your Savior, and also with the Light Bearer. Suffice to say the brand of religion you're advocating has made Christ the Eternal Universal Donor, except that you're bleeding him to Death.

Generally, I don't care if people choose to believe such things. However, your distasteful regard for your fellow human being indicates that such a sentiment is merely a pale justification for the most despicable avarice.

But we do know why you endorse murder: you're too afraid for your soul, and thus give it away in cruelty toward the least of your fellow humans.

Or is it because it's too tough for you to figure out? For Christ's sake, man--literally!--lighten up and trust yourself for once. Wouldn't it be nice to actually know something for once, instead of believe? Wouldn't it be nice to know something is true because you can see its demonstration in nature, or in society, as opposed to believing it's true because you're afraid of what might happen if you try? Trust those questions: if you fear they will lead you astray in your conduct, it is only because you do not trust yourself. We have Know Thyself, Love Thy Neighbor, and Know Thy Enemy. What ever happened to Love Thy Self? If you know yourself and you love yourself then you cannot help but to be compassionate. Because knowing yourself is to learn more and more every day about how you fit into the scheme of the Universe, or, as you would have it, God's Plan. To love yourself is to accept your place in it and be effective in what ways you can. Yes, it requires an educated population, but superstition and religion seem to be huge factors in the problem of educating people.

Then what's with the War Horse? It seems to me that you're trying to displace your moral responsibility toward other people, and thus dismiss the guilt you bear for your hatred of people.

This is a doctrinal point of faith. Well, I haven't seen the latest updates to the Official Vatican AntiChrist Countdown, but to declare fact what you have declared is certainly a point of faith.

Quantify it, Doctor Smarty.

Otherwise, stop being ... well, I don't want to call you childish--it insults children--but you're hardly behaving in any respectably mature manner.

Okay, hand over the drugs. You know, I can get as high as anyone without endorsing murder or threatening cultural obliteration. I have not, however, gotten high enough to watch The Matrix, and, should I be so lucky as to avoid a methamphetamine and intravenous Ripple addiction, I might maintain that standard until I die.

I would say it is, but you have endorsed murder. So, yeah, I think it's fair that people worry about you. But if you need to go so far as to include the Matrix in this divine frappuccino, I do tend to think you're paranoid.

This might have something to do with the spectacular failure of Christian love and mercy. What, do y'all think Jesus is your whore? Stop treating him like one.

Been there, done that. Remember this: at a Catholic school in Tacoma, Washington, I was the antichrist. Sympathy for the Devil? No, not necessarily. But we have no quarrels at present. Satan has become so banal he's harmless. I must thank you Christians for making him so.

Can't help it; with a church full of people with ideas like yours, it's the natural reaction: you're bad for human life.

Catholics have done a good job of exploring and corellating and theorizing the Bible. I can say that their data indicates that the God of Mary and Jesus and all those saints does not exist.

You know, this is one thing I've never understood about Christians: Do you realize that the Devil is only the Devil because God must necessarily have it so? Unless God commissions the Devil's work, that work is taking place outside God's authority--it's a centuries-old thorn in the corn-holy-o. The Devil will be redeemed, as he has commission from God for his works. I know it doesn't say this plainly in your Bible, but I'm sure that as a Catholic professional prehistorian writer of myths that you recall the heresies, the anemic justifications of Irenaeus and Athanasius, the character assassin Apostolic Fathers .... Even their best efforts, and into the modern day as well, cannot justify the existence of the Devil for any purpose exceeding God's authority or plan.

Yes, Daddy.

What is it with your condescending attitude? That superiority complex? Your overflowing presumptuousness?

Could it be your best veil behind which you fail to hide a flood of ignorance and cruelty?

So God is not infinite? God is the sunset.

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Even I, cast away by God's mercy, know this. Of course, it helps to recognize the limitations of Christian theology: it makes points like this no-brainers.

Something about a superiority complex. Do you ever stop lying and whining long enough to take a look at yourself? Come out into the light, my friend: you're looking shakier than a crack addict.

Actually, don't. And for once in my life I can say that I speak for all Witches. Just don't. You're enough an insult to humanity. Stick to your principles and don't make this personal.

Even we lowly Witches understand the consequences of abusively casting spells; it's why we don't. Keep your own sorceries to yourself.

While I won't go so low as to charge a sexual deficiency, I do think your harsh approach and your illusion of loving sentiments might constitute a neurosis whereby you are suppressing some greater issue--perhaps your own questions of the legitimacy of your faith.

Seek serious professional help; you're going to hurt someone if you don't shake off these cruel sentiments.

--Tiassa

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sorry to butt in but I couldn't let this go

Lawdog you posted:
"I have studied witchcraft and i know its philosophy and purpose. I am only trying to inform you that the evil of witchcraft is has a long history. "


Indeed the history is long, I'd say longer then your bible claims the earth is old...however as to the history of the evils of witchcraft...i'd say it would be just under 2000 years old...you know when christanity decided to save the world (for itself).

 

Re: Re: What is wrong with you, Lawdog?

Even though not directed at me, I'd still like to respond.

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Therefore, since the soul is being tested upon the Earth in this life, so that it may recieve the Truth, Christ, and merit Heavenly reward in the next, torture and death do not compare to utterances of untruth. We should be willing to die rather than tell a lie.
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Torture and death do not compare to utterances of untruth? So, then, it is better to have burned a witch at the stake than to accept them for what they choose to do (free will and all)? Perhaps, Lawdog, you should try reading <i>The Crucible</i> so you can further your background on witchcraft and realize that truly demonic witchcraft originated within the Christian mind.

Lawdog, remember the tests for discovering a witch? If they drowned, they were innocent, if they floated, they were light and therefore a witch. Throw them off a cliff--if they fly, they were a witch, if they fall to their [Christian] death, they were not.

What about the Inquisition, Lawdog? If they were tortured and they confessed to being a witch, they were either granted immediate death or more torture--seldom life. Can you see, in your limited understanding of the human condition and your farcical fancies of human empathy, where this is heading? In order to save their lives from the Christian tormentors, they <i>had</i> to lie. As tiassa said, you're stuck in the fourteenth century; you desperately want there to be another Inquisition and Holocaust so that your evil incarnations can be carried out once again--all in the name of righteous indignation. You have no inclinations towards compassion (and don't pretend I'm wrong). The thought of the innocent suffering in the name of God fills you with such unearthly joy that common sense and mercy cry out in vain. If your calling in life were to apply the thumbscrews, you'd be the one to not only <b>not</b> question the command, but to also carry it out gleefully.

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McVeigh, regardless of his sins in life and his status among men, may still enter blessedness for having recieved Christ as his last act, truly being sorrowful, be we will not know until the JUDGEMENT.
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Regardless of McVeigh's personal take on government, he had no right to take the life of others away from them. By absolving McVeigh from any wrongdoing, you're veritably setting yourself up as the Grand Inquisitor over life and death. One hundred sixty-eight people died? As long as he accepted Christ as his Lord on his deathbed, he's entitled to blessedness. If you didn't have your head so far up your own ass, I'd say that's the biggest load of horseshit I've <b>ever</b> read.

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You do not have grounds to judge me as a hater of persons, only a hater of sin, falshood and heresy revealed to me by Holy Mother Church in her condemnations of occult. It is wrong to say that i am incapable of Love.
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</blockquote>

We sure as hell have grounds to judge you as a non-lover of persons, so what does that make you? Hater seems to fit. Your Holy Mother Church has been pimped by your God to evil ends since its inception. And you follow because the carnal man loves bloodlust. And you are very carnal. Not only are you incapable of love, you are also incapable of empathy, reason, dignity, comprehension, tolerance, and connections between knowledge gained from reading facts.

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Moral superiority? We do not attribute this to ourselves, but to the grace of God. It is God who is morally superior, we are only his unworthy servants.
<hr>
</blockquote>

Oh, no you don't. Get back over here. Realizing you've made a mistake in your line of thinking, you revert to including others in your belief system. Yet, even though you are Catholic, you are an anomaly within the system. You are the stench that blanches the root, that corrupts the system, that seeks to defame and then hides in the crowd so as not to be singled out. Well, you've just been singled out.

God is morally superior, eh? Wasn't it God that impregnated Mary even though she was wed to Joseph at the time? That would be adultery on a Grand Scale. Unworthy though you be, you have no right to declare others as unworthy as well. Since you have a spiritual deficiency, you seek to take others with you all the while hiding amongst them. Truly, misery does welcome company.

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We venerated the Holy Images, asking them to pray for us before God, but we give adoration, thanksgiving and worship only to God.
<hr>
</blockquote>

Venerated the Holy Images, eh? Asking <b>them</b> to pray for <b>you</b> before God? Exactly which definition of idolatry are you not included in?

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As far as historical dirty laundry goes, only God knows the Truth about what has transpired. Much, I know, is anti-catholic propaganda.
<hr>
</blockquote>

As far as Lawdog goes, only God knows the full extent of the damage of the self-inflicted frontal lobotomy he's performed on himself. Much, I know, is anti-intellect obfuscations.

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He has condemned witchcraft. You dont like this and find reasons to disagree. Nevertheless, He is the Eternal and unchanging Lord of Hosts. His power is beyond comprehension.
<hr>
</blockquote>

One minute God condemns witchcraft, the next the Holy Mother Church lifts its ban on it. Nevertheless, God is the eternal and ever-changing Lord of Hosts (interesting analogy, eh? You're just basically a host body for your viral God). <i>His power is beyond comprehension</i> is just another way of saying that since <b>you</b> have no idea about God, no one else does either. Just because you lack the caliber to reason out simple cause-and-effect scenarios doesn't mean that you can assume others can't as well.

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I, for my part, find several teachings difficult to endure, but I accept them out of Love for the one who created me.
<hr>
</blockquote>

You find several teaching difficult to endure? Like, possibly, love thy yourself and love thy neighbor as thyself? Yeah, I can see why those two (greatest) commandments would be rather difficult for you to accept, let alone practice.

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Do not be Antichristian.
<hr>
</blockquote>

Do not be Anti-accepting. Do not be Anti-open. Do not be Anti-intelligent or anti-reason or anti-logic or anti-tolerant. In other words, <b>BE</b> Antichristian.

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Finally, it is true that we are right.
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Yes, you are right, Lawdog. You are definitely right about your God being exactly what you've painted Him out to be. That's very plain to see.

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We do not misinterprete scripture since the Church cannot fail with the power of the Holy Spirit guiding the Bishops and Holy Father.
<hr>
</blockquote>

Well, there was that one time where the Church had to change its views on witchcraft and witches, but that's the only time. Was the Holy Spirit guiding the Bishops when an incredible number of them were engaged in pedophilia? I'll let you take credit for that Holy Spirit, Lawdog.

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I will pray for you, and again, I am sorry that my harsh but loving teachings have upset you.
<hr>
</blockquote>

Would you please? I'm in so much need of a master mythographer and resident expert on witchcraft to guide and pray for me. "Harsh but loving"? I think you got that wrong. I think you meant "uneducated and unloving" up there.

So, Lawdog, bet you wish that you were one of those prophets that could call down fire out of heaven and consume the unbelievers, eh? Well, not going to happen. Because, hey, I realize that's what you're really going to be praying for.

P.S. [Messed up on some of the HTML code--was <i>italicized</i>, but now it's correct--Oops!]

 

Borrowing Prag

Loone, Deadwood, and Lawdog--

In other words, be human.

Come on, guys, don't be afraid.

(Prag: Thanks much for the point; sorry to borrow it on short notice, but I was inspired.)

thanx,
Tiassa

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Had to say something here.

Basically you are saying that the inquisition and other such incidents are not misrepresentations? All this was correct? Are you also saying that the Catholic Church has NEVER changed its mind on Holy Scripture? Somehow I find the whole concept of a perfect church lead by humans to be perfect. Don't forget, scripture once said the world was flat as well.

I was also wondering where in the hell does the BIBLE state the CATHLOC church is infallible. Where does it speak of a pope that is perfect. And of course it must say something about all that adoration of the saint, or why you need to say Hail Mary all the time. Hmmmmmm....... are you sure about NEVER misinterpreting scripture?

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" Scripture does not put forth scientific theory such as the world being flat. Scripture may use poetic language as such, or refer to pre-historic cataclysms like the Flood, but not scientific theory. "

You missed the point here. The Catholic Church said that scripture claimed the world to be flat. That was obviously incorrect.

" THE CHURCH HAS ALWAYS KEPT THE DEPOSIT OF FAITH. WE shall be found perferct through conformity to Christ at the heavenly marriage, though at this time we struggle to overcome imperfect human nature. We put on the divine nature of Christ instead and are transformed inwardly, to become a new man in Christ. "

The Catholic Church was created and is run by human nature. Human nature corrupts it.

" THE OFFICE OF THE HOLY INQUISITION WAS EXTREMELY FAIR AND PATIENT WITH THE ACCUSED. IN FACT, FOLKS WENT TO THE INQUISITION COURTS SINCE THE SECULAR COURTS WERE SO BAD. EVERYTHING THAT PEOPLE HAVE READ OR ARE READING ABOUT THE INQUISITION NEEDS TO BE re-examined, Since all the rhetoric against it came from the German propaganda against the Church. We do NOT say that there was no abuse, but surely we know that there were exaggerations. "

Tell That to all the people that were slaughtered. I'm sure that people came flocking to the courts to confess it all. Yeah right.

" HERESY is a crime worthy of Death, a slight punishment from Man for an infinite offense against ETERNAL TRUTH AND AN INFINITELY GOOD GOD. AFTER DEATH, the punishment for heresy is much worse: ETERNAL DAMNATION. It is better to live under the threats of strict punishments for crime than to commit the crime and suffer the punishment in the afterlife. "

You mean like Christ did to all those nasty heretics....... wait didn't he sit at the table with sinners? By burning a heretic you send him to hell (what an accomplishment) and by leaving him alive you give him the chance to repent and go to heaven. Who gave the church the authority to decide who gets the chance to repent or not. No human has the right to damn a soul to hell.

" THe inquisition was very easy on heretics. For one thing, if your going to say that you believe in God and then go around spreading falsities about God, you should be a man of your word enough to go to the INQUISITION and talk to them. THere was always a grace period."

And if you went to the church to talk it over they cut your head off and killed you fast instead of torturing you. Weren't they all just swell guys.

" The heretics of the inquisition were not your run of the mill heretics that we have today. They believed, for example, that marriage was evil, as was bringing children into the world. Or that it was ok to steal from the rich, or practice polygamy and sodomy. They were much worse than folks like David Koresh, and they did much worse things. Many practiced witchcraft-BLACK MAGIC. "

ohhh, scary. All that black magic stuff. And you believe that no one does these things today? Do you even have any idea what magic is?

" ONLY THE BISHOP OF ROME SPEAKING EX CATHEDRA on FAITH and MORALS can be infallible, and only under those circumstances, since we know that THE GATES OF HELL SHALL NOT PREVAIL AGAINST THE CHURCH. BY THE WAY, THE BIBLE IS NOT OUR SOLE ARBITER OF TRUTH, RATHER, THE CHURCH, THE BISHOPS AND THE BIBLE (OUR INTERPRETATION) can tell you the Truth. A synopsis of the Truth is found in the Magisterium of the Church, and its creed. "

Well, if you believe the bible there is NO other things or books you can put your faith in. That includes the bishops. The Bible is the supreme truth. And the Bishop of Rome has been incorrect in matters of faith as well. The crusades for example: every person who served in the crusades was promised passage into heaven. Do you believe that. And don't even get me started on indulgences. You can't say God would approve of selling a piece of heaven.

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The bible still does not say the Catholic Church is infallible.

" NO ONE HAS SAID THAT. "

But you just said: " ONLY THE BISHOP OF ROME SPEAKING EX CATHEDRA on FAITH and MORALS can be infallible"

In a matter of speaking perfect in all maters of faith and morals. Then again the above seems to say that is bull*&^$

" The Bible does not need to tell us to be Catholic, since it is not the sole authority. The Church is my authority, telling me what the bible means. I do not judge for myself. Even the Devil can quote scripture for his purpose (as did some Anti-Church reformers). "

Which is exactly why you can not take another's word for it but interpret the bible yourself. You remind me of the crowd in Monty Pythons movie The Life of Brian when he (Brian) is trying to tell them (the crowd) to think for themselves.

" I WOULD BET MY LIFE ON THE CHURCH's DEFINITION"

You are doing just that, as well as putting your soul on the line.

 

Beware the Killer (Law) Dog

Wow, you obey the Church, an institution of men, in lieu of God? The Word of God itself is not your authority but the politics of human conscience and intellect? As long as we're clear on that, cool.

Actually, did you ever hear of Docetism? It's the heresy of believing that Jesus was not fully human. This is a heresy punishable by death, yet if you look into the history of the Mother Church, you will find amid the details of Athanasius' victory the adoption of the circumstance that Jesus was not fully human. Is this the idiocy of creating a rule that violates your standing policy, or the idiocy of not knowing enough of what your Church has invented to keep track of it all? Regardless: having an opinion separate from the authority of the Church warrants death?

There you go again with your murderous fantasies. Tell you what, Lawdog ... where the heck are you at? I'll fly out to where you are, and we can traipse on down to the local St Whatsit's Catholic Church, and you can read your assertions from Sciforums to the congregation and the clergy, and see what your church authority says. What's wrong, are you afraid you've violated the Church? Are you afraid they'll want to kill you? What is it about the Bible and murdering people? What is it about Christianity that makes it lust violence? Oh, wait ... you're reinforcing Tony1's assertion that Catholics aren't Christians: are you sure you're not a provocateur?

The pathetic gutters to which Christianity has sunk in history amazes me. But it's almost understandable, the product of such a condemning philosophy amid such a superstitious time. What just amazes me, time and time again, is that allegedly intelligent people, time and time again, will choose to sacrifice their intellects in exchange for a hypocritical promise.

You mean like the Catholics, with their list of heresies to punish with death? You mean like the Catholics, whose faith structure rests on those heresies being true? (Again, explain the Docetism thing; it seems to me that Christians are incapable of explaining the Thou shall not kill thing, other than agreeing with it in principle.)

In the modern day this is empty because the Church is losing its civil authority, and we're all better off for that. However, how manly are you, as an Inquisitor, with armed guards and a garrison to reinforce the points of your rhetorical position? What's wrong, afraid to lose the argument?

So were the Catholic clergy of the day. What's your point? Oh, that's right: with no merit to stand on, your position requires comparisons so that you can say, "Hey, at least we're not them." Can you demonstrate the merit of your philosophy without disparaging others? Didn't think so.

A) Provide those stats.
B) Once again, justification at the fault of others: At least we're not the heretics. At least we're not the Reformers. What's next, At least we're not Satan?
C) If Joe kills a man for the color of his skin ... okay ... now ... If I beat a man into paralysis for the color of his skin .... Got it? Hey, at least I didn't kill him. At least I'm not Joe. At least I was more reasonable and tolerant toward that person of color than other racist agitators. Get it?

Like your black magick of praying for people?

A) We know.
B) That is the problem with Christianity.
C) If you were to walk into that Saint Whatsit's and read your excoriations against living beings, do you really expect that your Church will agree with you? You do, indeed, judge for yourself, Lawdog. You choose to hate.

So if the Church killed you?

The fortunate thing to your declaration, Lawdog is that you don't have to bet your life. Of course, when you preoccupy yourself with how to murder someone and justify it, I guess the stakes raise in the psyche so that everything seems like betting your life.

Would you bet your soul on the Church's teachings? Would you bet your soul that your understanding of those teachings is clear? I'm sure if you look hard enough, you can invent a devil who will offer you the dotted line.

Have faith in Jesus Christ, Lawdog. Otherwise, you don't get to kill anyone. Oh, wait, wait ... if you have faith in Jesus Christ, you don't get to kill anyone. If you have faith in your Church, though ....

Stop drooling, Dog.

--Tiassa

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It could be, but churches aren't heads; kings are.

The Catholic Church tells you NOT to believe the Bible, but to believe them.

Lawdog mentioned crushing the serpent.
Why are you taking it so personally?

No such thing.
The soul that sinneth, it shall die.
(Ezekiel 18:20, KJV).

Ah, so you finally realize this?

It'd be better for you to live rather than die.

She'd be worse off trying that.

She'd be better off with the truth.
Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
(Acts 4:10-12, KJV).

No part.

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
(Romans 6:3, KJV).

The witch-hunters seriously misread that.

Thanks, tiassa.
Of course, I'm considering the source.

Be curious no more.

Non-Christians tend to think of the world as us and them.
Christians know better.
In a high-stakes game such as life where you only get one bet, it's worth paying attention to the fact that it is us, them and them pretending to be us.

And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
(Galatians 2:4, KJV).

Jewish saints in the Catholic Church?

No one does.

Only Catholics would be afraid of a look.
They realized the ineffectiveness of their religion even at an early age.

Therein you reveal the pagan underpinnings of Catholicism.
That is a Platonic concept.

Plato - Soul
The soul is in the very likeness of the divine, and immortal, and
intellectual, and uniform, and indissoluble, and unchangeable; and the
body is in the very likeness of the human, and mortal, and unintellectual,
and multiform, and dissoluble, and changeable.
-- Phaedo 80b (Jowett)

It is OK to land once in a while, tiassa.

The RCC has never changed its mind about anything.

To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
(Isaiah 8:20, KJV).

You are.

Here's what the Bible has to say about heresy...
For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
(1 Corinthians 11:19, KJV).

Nothing there about being worthy of death.

 

Looks like rehab didn't work, Tony

Well, Tony, in case your literacy skills aren't up to par, Lawdog also endorsed the murder of human beings for doctrinal disagreements. Do you actually have an argument? Or do you just like pretending to have one?

You know, Tony even your sarcasm is infantile. Do you actually have an argument? Or do you just like pretending to have one?

It's the product of your Bible, and of your God, without whose Will nothing happens in this Universe. The only logical conclusion is that God approves of this kind of idiocy, which undermines the integrity of the entire faith and its god. You cannot escape the toll of the sins committed by others of the faith; as long as you try, you are focusing solely on your own petty pride. Get your hypocritical ass out of the gutter and try living for your God, for once, or else do the rest of the world an effing favor and drop it.

Well, there is, I imagine, some esteem in having a title of cowardice and deceit named after you: I'm glad you're honored.

Your demonstration that you missed the point can only speak toward the paucity of your faith: it encourages not knowledge and compassion but superstition, hatred, and greed. Just to cover the bases briefly:

1) Do you believe in a Devil? (Superstition)
2) Your hatred of Catholics is exceptionally obvious.
3) You seem to focus on yourself: it is more important to exonerate the faith and protect your salvation than it is to actually figure out what's wrong with the faith that will prevent said salvation.

Your superstitious, hateful greed has compelled you to adopt a philosophy of God that would make Jesus weep for the failure of His mission. How does it feel to be so pointless, Tony?

I would have hoped that should you have bothered to return at all, that you would have something of use to say. Silly me; I should never believe in human potential. I should have just been glad you took your pettiness away, and not given it a second thought.

Far be it for me to assume you're capable of learning anything, Tony.

Psst ... tell that to Loone.

Anyway, it's a nice slogan: is that what they taught you while you were away on "vacation"?

--Tiassa

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" The RCC has never changed its mind about anything."

It has changed its mind so many times I have lost count as well as apologizing......how can perfection apologize for a mistake?!?!?!?!

 

Looks like THC doesn't work, tiassa

Brilliant sidestep.
So, what is your answer?

Not being sarcastic.

What's your point?

You believe in a goddess, so what's the problem?

Catholics are a sad case, not deserving of hate but of salvation.
Catholicism, on the other hand, is a serious pack of lies.

Salvation-preventing faith? What is that?

What am I supposedly so greedy for?

You get all this out of a look?

You're flying high all the time. It is actually OK for you to come down to earth, even if for a moment, tiassa.

Make no mistake, the RCC does not change its mind.

For development in the Catholic sense does not mean that the Church ever changes her definitive teaching,
Cath. Enc.

As for apologizing, the RCC only apologizes for not incorporating pagan doctrines sooner.