My saving knowledge of the Bible: It is important that we archive and save a record of the Bible long after Christians are gone. It is only with the source documentation juxtaposed against the conduct it inspired in its adherents that we shall see the true nature of Christianity. Seriously, Loone, you've failed: you assume that every Christian in the world thinks exactly like you ... funny, I think I accused Tony1 of that lack of empathy toward other people, as well. It seems to be a hallmark of Christian faith. You can talk about pretty metaphor all you want but history demonstrates that your assertion is out of tune. Your lack of concern for the murderous impulses your Christian brethren display will, upon the enactment of such impulses by such ill-inclined people, constitute your complicity and abetting of such a crime against humanity. You will have ignored the least of your Christian brethren, to say the least, in allowing the consumption of that soul by its murderous impulse. You will have hated the least of your human brethren in allowing their destruction for the advancement of your salvation. The sword of the spirit will then, upon the judgement you rely so heavily on, cut you away from the Book forever. You know, it puzzles me how much a Christian might worry over my salvation, or Emerald's--or, to be more proportionate about it, any infidel soul. Take some time and look at your own, Loone. Both you and Deadwood have attempted to dodge the issue in order to avoid actively endorsing murder as your brother Lawdog has done. But at the same time you cannot, apparently and as a result of doctrine, condemn such murderous declarations because you are afraid of endangering your souls. If this is untrue, step up and advise your violent, hateful brother. If not, we the Witches, as we gather to protect ourselves, will only be able to practically recognize your willingness and bloodlust. But don't try to dodge the issue by ignoring it: Lawdog's maniacal threat is exactly the "expected" result of your faith. I must admit, you all had me nearly convinced over these last couple of years that such ignorance and hatred was a quirk of my perception. Yet here are three of you: Lawdog who threatens, who endorses murder; Loone, who proudly touts military lingo in the name of love and seeks a fight; and Deadwood's entry into our debate includes not his revulsion felt toward a hate-crime, but rather his sadness that the victim is now farther from the clutches of Jesus Christ. Here we have a Hateful Triune demonstrating the highest of their priorities: the conquest of people by Christian faith. I mean, sure, I figured there was a high chance that Lawdog was an atheist agent provocateur, but three of you operating concurrently? I think we can fairly conclude the nature of these sentiments: the irony is that people are offended when told that this is what Christianity inspires. You have demonstrated it rather clearly, in my opinion. Yeah, I guess so: Christian mercy is murderous--how effing paradoxical is that? That's some nice churchin' there, boys. --Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
To the Glory of God! Hi Tiassa!: You have not the Spirit of God in you so you have no true understanding of Christianity. Did you know there's such a thing as the spirit of the Anti-Christ? And that in your carnal nature is the 'spirit' of the Anti-Christ! We Christians wrestle not against 'flesh and blood' but against spiritual forces (evil) . And that we are messengers of the Gospel of Peace, and the Holy Spirit is the one that deals with your heart, God Himself shell fight our battles! Your not just contesting with men, but GOD, and you who apposes the truth, have already lost 2000 years ago! Well also eternity past and future if ye not come unto Jesus for forgiveness of sins! No matter what you are anyone would say or do out side of Christ, you already have lost most miserably! Jesus is the one and only hope for the lost!Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Get real! None of you are any match for God! Don't let the Devil destroy you, in your arrogance! Jesus can still save the wayward soul!
To the Glory of God! Most of the atheist post about Christians and the church are 'untruths', and they shell give in an account of there sins of hate against something they don't understand. Well the time of the heathen shall come to an end. And Jesus will come and there will be no more hatred on Earth! Amen! Behave your selves! And let's enjoy life in common since fashion! God is the victor, ye are lost souls in need of a loving saviour, Jesus! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Re: To the Glory of God! Sir. Loone, What tripe! Your savior promised his audience that he would return before some of them died - that was nearly 2000 years ago! Guess what? Your <i>savior</i> is a no-show. What kind of <i>truth</i> is that? Give it up already, Linus. The Great Pumpkin isn't coming. I'd say we won by default. Emerald
Hi All, Sir Loone: Mate I feel sorry for you. You should really take a step back and try to see these arguments from the perspective of a 3rd person...seriously do yourself a BIG favour and forget you are christain for a few hours, then go back through the threads here and take the arguments on their merits (keeping in mind that you don't already believe Jesus is real). Would the arguments presented by christains convince you to become christain, i.e. only because they insist they are right but can't actualy back up what they are saying as truth. Also would you still be convinced that the impact christanity has had on society was positive (without ignoring the millions of lives that have been destroyed in the name of your god). I would think that any person with a sound ability to think would have to say no actualy this religion is only a political tool which has had a predominantly evil role in society. I assure you if you can do what I have suggested you will realise that your belief system is based on FEAR and not Love. P.S. I know you believe that God will be upset with you if you forget being christain for a while but if he can forgive McVeigh for what he did than I'm sure you'll be able to make it up to him too.
Tiassa, I have a request for you. Could you please please please tell me where I've condoned any sought of Christian violence? I am a pacifist. Only ever been in a fight once, 5 or 6 years ago. I've almost been in others, to help friends, but God has always delivered me and bought peace. One time is what I would call a miracle. Christians are taught passive resistance. Martin Luther King used this, he had a great love for his and our Saviour. I don't actually know any people who have committed murder. I have a friend who knows someone who has, but I don't know him and have never met him. So I don't think I could have helped that least of my brethren. The Christians that I know seem to be a different breed to the ones that you know. I don't condone any bombings of abortion clinics either. If that Christian(s) really wanted to show their love for Christ they would have gone into the clinic and preached the Gospel as we are commissioned to do. What we are not commissioned to do is to break the commandments set forth by God to Moses. If a Christian commits murder or is even contemplating it, they should be approached by the elders of the church. I hope this verse helps. 1John 3:15 "Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him." I should also go more indepth into the Sword of the Spirit(the word of God). The sword of the Spirit is a double edged sword. A double edged sword back then was the most powerful to my knowledge. From that, we know that the word of God is powerful. the sword of the Spirit also gives life(Salvation). The Earthly sword brings death. Just as living as a slave to the flesh, or as a slave to sin is another way of referring to. But we know that the sword of the Spirit brings life. you will find that when someone is a born again Christian there life is turned around 180 degrees. So we are dead to sin and alive in Christ. Ephesians ch6 vs 10-24 10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. 18 And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints. 19 Pray also for me, that whenever I open my mouth, words may be given me so that I will fearlessly make known the mystery of the gospel, 20 for which I am an ambassador in chains. Pray that I may declare it fearlessly, as I should. 21 Tychicus, the dear brother and faithful servant in the Lord, will tell you everything, so that you also may know how I am and what I am doing. 22 I am sending him to you for this very purpose, that you may know how we are, and that he may encourage you. 23 Peace to the brothers, and love with faith from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Grace to all who love our Lord Jesus Christ with an undying love. Hebrew 4:12 For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. Another thing that I might add. It is true that early Christians did want to be martyred. Yes, it is a great honour. However, the Popes used to always be martyred just so they could bring honour to themselves. If you are martyred to bring honour to yourself then that is an ulterior motive, that defeats the purpose all together. I've known different people in my life who have risked being put to death because they are Christian, but they never risked it so that they may receive glory, they did it because of their faith in God. I myself would die, before denying the Lord Jesus Christ. Our minister even prayed that we would believe even unto death. Before he did pray before the congregation, he said that he didn't care what other people thought of him praying this. Our minister has even risked going to jail before. It is all for the glory of God. Not for ourselves. Also, I didn't read where Lawdog said that Christians should kill. Was this in God is scientifically real. No Christian reserves the right to kill. The commandments still stand. Thanks.
wordSword <blockquote> <font size="1">quote:</font> <hr> <i>Originally posted by Deadwood</i> I myself would die, before denying the Lord Jesus Christ. Our minister even prayed that we would believe even unto death. Before he did pray before the congregation, he said that he didn't care what other people thought of him praying this. Our minister has even risked going to jail before. It is all for the glory of God. Not for ourselves. <hr> </blockquote> Standing up for what you believe is a good thing, I think. It's great that you don't want to back down in the face of adversity, as it applies directly to you. However, I must ask. Let's turn the situation around a bit. You've said that you wouldn't deny the Lord Jesus Christ and would rather die. Okay. But, would you be willing to put to death someone that refused to accept the Lord Jesus Christ? Unfortunately this is a loaded question. If you answer no, then you must also realize that <i>when</i> Christ returns, this is one of the items on his agenda. If you say yes, then you must realize why Christianity is seen as ultimately destructive. <blockquote> <font size="1">quote:</font> <hr> Also, I didn't read where Lawdog said that Christians should kill. Was this in God is scientifically real. No Christian reserves the right to kill. The commandments still stand. <hr> </blockquote> Lawdog was enlightening all with his inspirational commentary about witchcraft and the consequences of those that practice it. Lawdog being the master mythographer and all. As to the right to kill ... Perhaps you haven't read too much about the Crusades, or delved into the history of slavery, or on the subjugation of women, or on the impossible standards of perfection required by an imperfect God? Unfortunately there are many ways to kill--not all of them focus on killing the body. Christianity has done a really splendid job of killing the mind, reasoning, scepticism, and indifference to other people's ways of living.
Deadwood--initial thoughts It is this current thread. I have addressed what I consider to be violent, militaristic metaphors that, when permeated with the authority of God, create exceptional potential for human damage. Sir Loone, a perpetrator of these military metaphors, disagrees based upon what appears to be one of two possible primary assumptions: * That all Christians regard such metaphors the same, or: * That Loone considers himself to be the sole possessor of the truth of God In this sense, I tend toward the former. It is my experience that Loone would already have declared himself the sole possessor of truth were he to believe that. (There was, of course, Tony1, whom we haven't heard much from recently, who would never declare himself the sole possessor of truth, but who treated his fellow posters--Christian or otherwise--as if he was. When I called Loone on his metaphors, he offered the lame defense that he means something else. He has not addressed well the issue raised, nor the evidence supporting my assertions to be found in Lawdog's offensive behavior. In light of Lawdog's posts, excerpts of which I presented as related to my objections toward the militant "love" of Christianity, Loone resorted to empty preaching. And here, Deadwood, you enter the fray: Some eight hours after I cite Lawdog's hateful tantrum, you respond with an answer that was anemic at best the first time Loone offered it: It seems to me that you're skipping the relevant issue that Christian militarism has brought about threats of cultural extinction on behalf of the Glory of God. It seems to me that what was most important to you in that paragraph was to ignore what reality we just witnessed at our beloved Sciforums in order to continue the justification that other people just don't understand. I had, at this point, explained to Loone what was wrong with this concept. You seem to be restating the obviously faith-based assertion that people don't see what they see, and don't perceive what they perceive unless they believe that Jesus is their savior. And yet you go on to address violence. As I recall, your greatest concern is not human conflict, but that a soul is straying farther from the grasp of your god's dominion: It's a nice set of political priorities that allow you to mask complex human concerns behind a simplified shell of empty justifications. And you do go on, indeed: A few points: * Your Lord has sanctioned this kind of behavior for centuries; all evidence indicates that unless he does sanction that kind of behavior, that Heaven is empty. This kind of behavior is central to the establishment of Christian faith and religion. It is the history of Christianity on earth, and there's no way around that. * They need to confess to God and tell God they're sorry in order to be saved? Big effing deal! It's a lot harder to look someone in the eye when you can sit alone and whisper that you might have been wrong when there's nobody around to hear. * Its amazing how focused on salvation a Christian can be that they won't give a rat's behind about things like murder. On the other hand, it's not a particularly compelling idea, apparently, to stand up for what's right. Are you Thomas Hobbes? Do you believe that the people Lawdog has threatened deserve that treatment? Why do you accept Christian preaching that you find defamatory to God's message and mission? I mean, I love this: And here you go putting blame on the infidels again. How stereotypical can you behave? Should we test-drive it? I quote Mayor Joe "Diamond" Quimby: "That was unexpected." Your resorting to party-line assertions that are nullified in their current aspect, your focus on salvation, and your willingness to place the burden of this militarism onto non-Christians is disconcerting. Your silence alone is not an indicator of complicity. But I think your calculated evasion of the fact that people are threatening cultural extinction for the glory of your angry, jealous God does much to reinforce the case. Address the issue for once; don't fulfill as many negative stereotypes of your faith as you can. My jaw is dropped for a number of reasons: Lawdog's oubursts, and also at the incredulous indifference shown by his fellow Christians. This is your God and your faith which has been represented. You have responded to these awful representations with indifference at best, arrogance at worst. I am compelled to add that there are few, if any Witches, who would be surprised by this course of events. We've known this about Christianity for years, and we're running out of ideas of what to do about it. For centuries has your faith pressed angrily forward, and still it presses. Be part of the solution, for once. --Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Tiassa, I'm really sorry for not being blunt. I didn't mean to, nor had any intention to. It's my fault. I thought my posts contained more information on my views than what there actually was. I was not trying to ignore the issue or anything, I'm just stupid, its a genetic thing Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!. Perhaps if I quote what you say it will make it easier to make my points clear. P.S. This is for my sake. If I do forget anything could you please tell me. I went over my two past posts and they weren't very direct at all. I have been trying not to use quotes lately because sometimes they can be misused. I thought if I just gave my thoughts that that would be better, guess not. OK I'll try my best. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Perhaps I could go into more depth into the background where the metaphor was written, ie how it originated. St Paul wrote the metaphor to the church in Ephesus. When he wrote the Ephesians and this metaphor, he was in chains, guarded by a Roman Soldier. So looking at the armor of this Roman soldier he compared all of the arpature of him to that of standing firm in the faith. Like helmet, shield, sword etc. Basically putting in human terms like going out to battle what the Christian is equipped with. We do battle not against flesh and blood but against the principalities of this Earth. Ephesians ch 6 vs 10 to 13 10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. I must state that all of this leads to life. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Our conflict is against the supernatural. Christians are called to this fight. We must fight the principalities of evil, the demons who's will is to bring suffering, and they have. By cultural extinction, do you mean taking up arms such as guns, to destroy cultures. If so, then that has no part in Christianity. There is no teaching to support Christians doing that. If you mean by preaching the Gospel, I see no problem with that. If you are to be saved, Christ is the only acceptable sacrifice. No other sacrifice will be accepted for atonement of sins. This is why Christians hold that this is the only way to be saved. No other path can lead to salvation, but believeing in the Messiah you will be justified. Mark 10:45 For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." Hebrews 9:15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance--now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant. Galatians 2:17 "If, while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! I hope that I would be able to think that my main concern in life is the salvation of others. However, this does not mean I don't feel anything towards my friend being bashed. I'm not that insensitive. I thought I expressed my sorrow. as a side note I should probably tell you that I'm not a very emotional person, who finds it hard to express feelings, so please be happy with what I said. I keep everything inside. Please don't argue with that, its just the way I am and have been brought up, thank-you. --->End of quote^ l One thing of note is when I was referring to non-Christians, I was not referring to those who say that they don't believe in Christ. I was referring to the ones who do, but are not genuine, you can not see it in their lives. Someone who is truly saved will not go around killing, simple as that, unless they are in the Army and so forth defending their country and right to freedom of course. Lets not get petty in this debate. I stated in an earlier post that there will be a 180 degree turn in their life. They will be dead to sin and alive in Christ. I was referring to those Christians who say they believe in Christ as Lord and Saviour, but there is no evidence shown in their life. I was not looking for a scape goat as it may have seemed. Therefore, Christianity was not to blame, its people who claim to be Christian but aren't genuine, they have no application of the teachings in their life. Good works flow from faith. The same holds true for Islam. a lot of wives husbands bash and mutilate their wives and claim to be Muslim. This certainly detracts from their faith. but really in Islam, womon should be treated with high respect, as in Christianity. Again I am sorry. It was not calculated and not an evasion. Just proof that I'm human and still make mistakes. Again I did not mean to show indifference. I did say that Christians are still not allowed to kill and that if any Christian justifies killing then they should be approached by the elders of the church. I don't think that was showing indifference, I thought that that was rebuking any notion that it is OK for Christians to kill. I think that instead of killing witches, we should formerly preach the Gospel to them so that they have a chance to repent and put their trust in Jesus so that they may be saved. Again I did not mean to show indifference as stated above. I agree there has been a lot of undoings in the church (can not think of a stronger word for undoings). However, a lot of good has also come out of Christianity. Many lives have been saved. There have been many charities which help the sick, poor and misfortunate. In the last half century we have seen great changes in the church, which all started at the Reformation, when saved by grace was re-realised. I am a changed person because of Christianity for the better. I have no tendencies to go out killing. Yes, I still get angry and stuff, but I handle ager much better. The process of sanctification will always continue in me until I am glorified at Christs second coming (side note: I do not feel pride at being glorified in my heavenly, eternal body, but joyful, I do not look down on non-believers as you think I might for if I did, I would be always calling you names and saying how stupid you are, I consider myself blessed that I may be saved by faith only so that no one may boast, my rightousness does not come from self, but that which is in Christ. PRAISE BE TO GOD!!!). To put it simply, I wouldn't not put to death someone who did not believe. Those who have refused to believe or who have a knowledge and put it off until too late are responsible for their own actions. They were in need of an acceptable sacrifice to atone for their sins. Only Jesus Christ fulfils all that is needed. This is how He fulfilled the law and the prophecies in the old testament concerning Him. Some are still yet to be fulfilled, but they will be in time. I also agree that God does have high standards, in fact He demands perfection, He also gave us a chance by sending His only begotten Son to die and atone for the sins of whoever believes. Remember, he first came to us, not to condemn but to save. He will accept you if you genuinely believe in Him as your Lord and Saviour, just ask Him. Christ's first coming made way for mankind to be saved. However, you personally must believe. I can not threaten or force you to, it is your choice. That is free will. You have the free will to sin. You chose to. Now you have the free will to come to God and atone for your sins, past, present and future. Repent of your sins, turn away from them. Believe in Christ Jesus. Join a suitable church. That a)loves sound doctrine b)enjoys praise and worship c)loves fellowship and builds you up into a mature Christian. If you want to become a Christian, just message me, I will do my best to help you. You will also be my first convert. But all the glory goes to God for it is Him who works in, through and out of me. PRAISE BE TO GOD!!! John ch 3 vs 16-18 16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[6] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. Thanks Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Thanks so much for the response, Deadwood. Seriously.Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Just so you know, I'm not being petty but you wrote: <blockquote> <font size="1">quote:</font> <hr> <i>Originally posted by Deadwood:</i> To put it simply, I wouldn't not put to death someone who did not believe. <hr> </blockquote> Would I be wrong in assuming that double negative up there was unintentional? So, would the revised quote look something like this? <blockquote> <font size="1"><i>Revised quote</i>:</font> <hr> To put it simply, I would not put to death someone who did not believe. <hr> </blockquote> Sorry, but I will not be your first convert. Contrary to what Sir. Loone may think, I was once involved (quite devotedly) in the Christian way of life. I didn't like how it tried to make me intolerant of others' views and lifestyles, though. That and other things let me decide to leave that way of life. Suffice to say, thanks again for replying! prag
Sword of the Spirit! Hello Pragmathen, I have a few converts elseware, but that credit goes' totally to the Holy Spirit, it is His work to convert and we just give the message of Salvation. Will get back with you later, have to get going ,work, work, work.Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
More thoughts .... Deadwood-- I thank you for the effort of your reply. It does, indeed, seem that there is a communication gulf. I would offer that metaphor is a working part of my life; with ambitions for art, I find representational concepts of dominant vitality. I well understand what you're saying here; I understand that the metaphor does not necessarily describe flesh-and-blood persecutions. Yet what Christians fail to address centrally is what these metaphors do. Yes we know that such expressions as Lawdog's are of deviant sharpness, but much as the ideas of the Inquisitions live today in muted, angry incarnations, so too do the underlying factors inspiring Lawdog's hateful declarations infect the Christian psychology in angry, muted incarnations. Thoughts do not remain faithfully in their original vein; start with something objective like a Mandelbrot. Everyone I know thinks the graph result looks familiar, but nobody knows from where. So in philosophical discussions, they sometimes exploit as best they can a relative concept to the Mandelbrot's seeming perpetuity. It provides a link to pi, which also seems neverending. What individuals do with these mathematical concepts can have stunning effects on their philosophical concepts. Such is true of the metaphors of any religion. Does it not strike you odd that the Witches have, by and large, left the violent metaphors of the Druidic past behind? It serves the Witches none to carry on that violence justified by perceived necessity. The world around us generally does not, and should not present that necessity. The more time we spend trying to figure out how to match Christianity metaphorical blow for metaphorical blow, the worse it is for Witches, Christians, and the people who have to put up with it. Given Christianity's mandate to be correct and infallible in its source and inspiration, we have seen throughout the centuries a tendency of the faithful to draw this spiritual sword into the world of the flesh. We, the human race, need none of this balderdash. It is counterproductive and threatens our ability to adapt and evolve. This transmutation of a spiritual concept into that of flesh is the result of Christianity's targeting the lesser-educated for conversion; it seems that the only purpose of the mystery of God has something to do with the question, Will I be saved? Such greed inspires much infamy, and the ideas of that infamy still plague us today. For instance, your citation of Ephesians 6. In verse 11, the Bible instructs to put on the armor to stand against the devil's schemes. Throughout history, this has been included in the justifications offered for the "purging" of the "agents" of these "devil's schemes". (e.g.--Inquisition, Crusaded; the bleeding Christian pride in Song of Roland is an incredible testament to Christian hatred, especially when placed in context of the history the poem describes.) The seeds of this hatred run at least to the Apostolic Fathers, and posters here have noted that even Jesus behaved with this elitist tendencies, going so far as to destroy a farmer's stock in order to prove his point. I believe history indicates otherwise. Even into the twentieth century; even until today; even in the allegedly enlightened US we still see the influence of the worst parts of Christianity, which are the same parts history has always witnessed for lack of much else. An excerpt from Emma Goldman's Anarchism: What it Really Stands For (1917) And, of course, understanding that Ms Goldman was promoting a social idea, we see her comparison of values in relation to that idea: * http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/Goldman/Writings/Anarchism/anarchism.html History tells the results of such ideas as militaristic "spiritual" metaphors. The effects of such religion are obvious to a good many people. The only reason we can understand what you're saying about the metaphors is because yes, there is the literary evidence for the interpretation you provide. However, what such assertions as your interpretation fail to consider is the working, living, active result of those ideas, far from the idea. Well, there's the part in the OT about the Amelekites. There's the Flood story where God does his own dirty work. The passover. And the Revelation, I suppose, qualifies too, but I'm one who generally finds little there but politics and metaphor, so I'm willing to leave it out, too. Didn't one of the Kings (perhaps David) raze every non-Jewish temple and altar in the old Kingdoms? In the meantime, though, I appreciate what you're after. I agree that such violence is not the Christianity I was taught; someone needs to tell Lawdog that, loudly and immediately. And perhaps that's the point of why I'm digging in so hard: It seems that the Dog's fellow Christian posters would rather do anything but correct him publicly to his virtual face. They'll note that such violence has no place, but only to justify the continuation of the larger faith. They'll explain that people are perceiving metaphors wrong, yet Lawdog shows the result of the interpretations those wrong people worry about. And I had really hoped to see a Christian stand up and tell Lawdog that he's wrong: I think many people would like to see two Christians in disagreement actually work out a difference of interpretation to a conclusive point; such a feat has never been witnessed in my lifetime. (That's why I'm so impressed with the WARC conference I post from time to time, and yet I get little commentary from Christians, except for deflections of and excuses for perceived problems.) Alas, this post expires that time; I do not accept for my satisfaction what must be prompted when I think "right" is so damnably obvious. I had hoped, before the discussion reached this point, that Lawdog would find stern rebuke among his community: I conclude from the lack of such rebuke that Christians generally approve of his ideas on some untold level, or to some unmeasured degree. Christians are too scared of being seen as defending infidel propriety that they will allow threats of atrocity and--as history demonstrates--atrocity itself as long as they don't have to suffer the discomfort of correcting another Christian. Unless, of course, you're part of that silly Catholic-Protestant thing in Ireland that so reinforces our faith in either form of Christianity. As I read past the thick faith-layer there, I might agree that preaching the Gospel is just fine. Two dares: Preach it honestly (something I rarely witness), and preach it for some better goal than personal salvation (which I never witness). Greedy preaching creates opportunities for sins in the form of Lawdog's hate; what would one answer God when presented with the notion that one inspired such sin? These days, preaching the Gospel seems to go hand in hand with the superlative morality assumption that seems so integrally related to Christian hatred of the world. Of your Mark, Hebrews, and Galatians posts: thank you for devoting so much to the consideration of personal salvation, and reducing the scope of Christianity to something you do for a reward. That quote from Galatians is especially hilarious. I would like to include the next verse, 2.18: For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. Like I said once: Heaven seems to be empty. Few people blame Christ for anything but being part of a "perfect" message that has created so much hatred and sin. But it was a nice faith declaration. Unfortunately, Christian faith seems to have little care for reality. It was your primary concern. What should I think? That you're deceiving me with your very words? Of course, that, too, is something which I accuse the faith of creating in people. That's fine with me. But those to whom you refer still draw their ideas from the Bible; the perfect message of God's truth creates this in them. One cannot say that they are deceived by the Devil, here, either, for the Devil is God's instrument, as evidenced both by Job, and also by the inability of any Christian theology to create any scenario justifying the presence of the Devil except as God's holy agent. (Note, this last idea generally didn't stick around long, nor did the living bodies that believed it. History shows that they became dead bodies quickly.) A) Heaven is empty, then. B) Armies do not justify killing. C) I did not realize that the murderous effects of Christian faith were petty. For this last part, I apologize profusely. Do you realize that's most of y'all? When the "extreme" ones are pushing wrongly against society, where the hell are all of you? Quite obviously, hiding in your rooms, hoping they win. So it wasn't Hitler, per se, but the people who agreed with him? In that sense I'll even concede the point, for there is much debate today about those who helped the Jews in Germany, whether they should, why they did, and whether they should have started earlier. It's a mess, I admit. But I think that pretty much reflects the state of any community witnessing persecution. The Christian community in general seems to ignore these allegedly minority elements of violence until called upon to answer for them. Like I said when I called Loone and your responses lazy: clean up the Christian house and don't take it out on us. Until that happens, Christianity is a source of sin and destruction. Once again we find an establishing of Christian virtue at the exploitation of other culture's difficulties. And women are not treated with high respect in Christianity. That is laughable except for the fact that misogyny is officially on the list of things that I have no obligation to tolerate. Of course, for all of you born into sin, it seems that you're supposed to blame the woman. The result of Genesis has been tragic for women, and if you have to resort to Islamic comparisons to make yourself feel better about Christian treatment of women .... Well? And you revel in the mistakes of the past; these issues shouldn't be present in our lifetime, yet they are. It seems that one must work rather hard to find a way to offer such a soft opinion of threats of cultural extinction. Calculated indeed. And to generally ignore the primary issue? The result of dangerous military metaphors? Definitely an evasion. It's a nice Christmas wish, I admit. Okay, here is the statement that I objected to, which has brought us to this particular point in the present debate: Remember, forgiveness is a huge part of Christianity. We are in need of forgiveness as well. even if it is on the part of non Christians who thought they were doing the will of God and were full of hate, and not love. (Deadwood, 6/12) You were advising me on forgivenes; it's kind of what compelled me to call you lazy as well as Loone; thitherto, I was inclined to make the point to Loone--it was an opportune time, since Lawdog handed me on a plate with all the trimmings the very issue of my concern. Your timing was what got you so nicely included in my furor over this militarism; in the context of the debate as it had shifted when I asked Loone if he was seeing the danger, your entry did seem quite lazy and devoid of rebuke. I'm starting to understand that. Your plethora of apologies ... I don't know what to say. Your personal faith is a growth process, as I understand the most positive incarnations of Christianity. It's now on the block, right in front of you. I appreciate your amends, but that's not what I seek. I can't picture Christianity as going away without some aggression against it, and for reasons I think we're now well familiar with, I find that unacceptable. It is actually my hope that Christians will learn to live in harmony with diverse people. But please understand, there's reasons why I'm discouraged. I live in a world beside many people who believe that I am wrong; this I understand and accept. Beyond my notions of the mysteries of the Universe, I do a number of disagreeable things that generally aren't anyone's business except for the fact that a couple of them are against the law and the government think's a stoner's dangerous. Thus, to limit it to the specific issue at hand: religious notions (and lack thereof, as I will not exclude atheists here). * We, who only stand apart from you by your own declaration, are apparently unacceptable as we are, and must be made into something that we are not. On behalf of religions and atheisms everywhere, and of every future generation, I ask that Christianity either grow up or go away. We are tired of being threatened. We are tired of decency being proscribed to Christian sentiment. We are tired of superstition being what inhibits progress: what purpose does a Witch have in the modern day for violence? I thought the object of society was to get a long, and thou harm many many less when we all getteth along. I will ask this of any idea that creates such divisions in society, that finds people unacceptable even when those people aren't hurting anyone or bothering anyone. I will ask this of any rule of conscience that compels a person to suppress another. I will ask it of any idea that threatens. We the human race have no need for these ideas. We are a living part of the Universe, and have much better things to do than fight about the inability of one idea to survive amid modernity. What hurts most about Christianity is that the potential is there for this leading idea to actually lead, except for the fundamental discouragements of human ambition: it seems almost an acceptable psychosis whereby one need only look forward to fancy and never get anything done. Check with those Christians who actually do things for society: needle exchanges, emergency relief, development of medical technologies. You'll find that they're much like anyone else: some are concerned with the idea of their work, some are concerned with the profit of their work. They will be imperfect as the next, and they will largely resemble their cohorts in their field. The point is that they work in harmony with others, and seek in their own way the betterment of the human race. Greed disgusts me especially in terms of medicine and life, but at the same time, we the human race have pulled off some pretty cool stunts lately. Heart valves, vaccines ... we're still in the running against HIV and that's no easy task. We invent economies, and can see so damn much of the Universe its dizzying. As much as we still have to work out about the human race and how to survive together, one of the biggest benefits ever will come when Christianity gets its stuff together and stops lagging up progress. I can't believe people find it that important to argue about things like evolution or creationism. How is it that this one volume of stories called The Holy Bible has created such a mess among humanity? That the pope even had to apologize for all those idiots insisting that the Earth must be the center of the Universe is laughable. It should never have happened in the first place, and the singlemindedness of the Christian vision is a large part of that bulwark against human progress. You know, we all know abortion's tragic but why in the heck is it that every time someone with a pro-choice conscience thinks up a way to reduce the need for abortion, they run into objections from Christians? At some point, you must realize that the Bible's going to become completely worthless to the progressing human race unless its adherents show some signs of life. This is what it's like to live in a world among Christians. It's confounding how everywhere one turns, one finds Christianity in the way of getting things done. I actually shouldn't pick on Christian censors so much for antagonizing rock and roll. Stryper, on the other hand, did much more damage. We the people of the world officially invite all of Christianity to join the human race. It's your own choice to continue to find us unacceptable. Oh, I'm sorry ... I forgot that it is not your own choice. I forgot that you have no choice in the matter. thanx, Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Sword of the Spirit! Proverbs 14:12, " There is a way that seemith right unto a man, but the end there of leads unto death." (destruction) The word of God is powerful but it is not the tool of death and mayhem that you (Tiassa) speaking of, and we are not like unto She-ite Moslems, or Moslem Extremist that could and would use deadly force to push there cause, ethnic cleansing and so on. That is DEFIANTLY NOT CHRISTIAN, and not the teaching of Christ. We Christians are to "be wise as serpents, and harmless as doves." Not the Slasher you are seeming to portray us.Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! We preach the Gospel of Peace, not of war! We fight with 'supernatural' enemies, (Devil and his fallen angels) not hand to hand combat with people, but not to say 'self defense', not to harm a soul but to save it!Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Pragmathen, the word of GOD is truth! (the Word of God, the Holy Bible) It is a product of Supreme intelligence, not of man but man inspired by GOD Himself! We battle with 'super intelligent beings' that has fallen from there thrones when Satan deceived them into rebellion against GOD. They have lost but now are working to, in a desperate attempt to keep people like you,.. and I from knowing our full potential, inlight of that we are created in the image of GOD the Creator, that we will rule and wrain with God, Farther, Son, Holy Spirit have a 'personal' relationship with Him, something not even the Angels have not had in eternity past, present or future! So the Devil and his gang are furious! They don't want any of this for us mortals! They are doomed! there time is short, [a thousand years is far too short of time for them]. Well we have this fallen nature also that would prevent us from coming the knowledge of the TRUTH, our 'pride' (GOD hates it!) ,our arrogant, will to please the 'god of self'. So this is a 'spiritual battle', not the "Happy hour in Berut Lebanon," ye and 'Tiassa' are framing us as. [unjustly of course] We preach and teach the 'Gospel of Peace'! Not war!
I have history on my side. You have only your craven desire to win something. Of the Devil I might advise, Loone, that you are advised against speaking of those things which you do not know. I love how you have to resort to comparing yourself to people who violate their own holy book in order to make yourself look better. Why not stand on the merits of your faith instead of the faults of others? Oh, that's right. There are no demonstrable merits. I mean, here you are accusing me of framing you, and also noting the death and destruction among Islam. Well? What of it? How many of our soldiers who prayed before battle prayed to your God? How many prayed to Goddess Aradia? Or to Bel? How many Islamic abortion clinic bombers have there been in the US? How many fathers rape their daughters but believe in your God? You've invited these comparisons, Loone. You have pointed out the worst elements of another religion in order to sharpen the contrast of the most sparkling pipe-dreams of your own. You ought to be more careful: logic can be dangerous when you don't know how to use it. You drew a broad enough bracket, and there you go. --Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Root for the underdogs! <blockquote> <font size="1">quote:</font> <hr> <i>Originally posted by Sir. Loone:</i> We fight with 'supernatural' enemies, (Devil and his fallen angels) not hand to hand combat with people, but not to say 'self defense', not to harm a soul but to save it!Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! <hr> </blockquote> Supernatural enemies implies that these enemies have somehow superceded the physical plane of existence, therefore they are greater than us in some way. Which could lend some credence to your desire that tiassa and the rest of us need to realize that we are under the iron hold of the Devil and his fallen angels. The devil was thrown out of heaven because he apparently spoke his mind, which happened to be in direct opposition to what our jealous and thoroughly favoritist God had originally declared. God was angry because the devil wanted the glory for himself, even though that meant that not one soul would be lost, so long as everyone followed the devil's will. The Devil's plan? Simple: [follow the devil] + [do not question] = [salvation for all]. His punishment for disagreeing with God? Eternal damnation. Christ was elected to take his place because Christ's plan was: [follow the christ] + [do not question] = [salvation for some, questionable at best though]. Hmmm, Sir. Loone. How do these rudimentary equations figure out? Ah yes. The devil's plan meant that no one would be lost, but it also meant that no one would be able to exercise their free will, because that meant they could decide not to follow the devil. The Christ's plan meant that some would be saved (and many others would be wondering constantly their entire lives if they were among the few), but it also meant that no one would be able to take a different path other than Christ's. If they did, then they would not be saved, thus they would then become the sole property of the devil. Which basically translates into the fact that Christ took away people's free will. If people exercised their free will to not follow Christ, then they were to be cast off for the pleasure of the devil. So, who's plan was the best? More importantly, Sir. Loone, who's plan do you think you're following now? What would happen if we died and you found out that nonbelievers and those dreaded 'unbelievers' were also amongst those 'saved' and restored on the other side? That would kind of be a gip for Christianity, eh? You'd be saying, "Well, shux. You mean to tell me I could have thought of God on my own terms, without all this praise God crap and still ended up here? Huh. Guess I could have been slightly more tolerant of others' beliefs and spent some more time in broadening my horizons, rather than gradually constricting them." Of course, if you're right, then all of us infidels will be spending a goodly portion of eternity roasting up to our eyeballs in sulfur pits. Not a good image, you say (hopefully)? I agree. Our way of thinking (and we could be wrong) means that you don't suffer for thinking differently, either in this life or the next. Your way of thinking (and you could be wrong) means that we will suffer, if not in this life, then definitely in the next. Now, which God do you prefer? The one that kills those that don't believe in him or the one that respects a person's right and desire to choose to think differently? <blockquote> <font size="1">quote:</font> <hr> We battle with 'super intelligent beings' that has fallen from there thrones when Satan deceived them into rebellion against GOD. <hr> </blockquote> You know what? I wouldn't put it past you, Loone, if you thought that all of us infidels were actually fallen angels in disguise. What if we were actually good people through and through? Impossible! Anyone that speaks disrespectfully of the Bible (God's good word!) cannot be good through and through, but are deceived! It's become apparent to me (as well as to other posters on this board, I'm sure) that ignorance is equated to intolerance and an ideology based on pain and suffering for stragglers and those that choose to think differently. And that intelligence is equated to tolerance and an intense desire to elevate others above the grime they're used to living in (Christianity). Loone, are you that much of an ingrate to think that most of us posters has not been in your shoes (in one respect or another) at one time in our life? Do you actually think that we were looking for the easy way out (maybe some, but not all) of religious thinking? For those of us that were religious, we crossed a chasm greater and deeper than you can imagine to believe the way we do now. It was not simple leap, it was life changing. But we could not go on believing similarly to the way in which you do. And from your posts, it's obvious we've made the correct choice to leave that mentality behind. If we're wrong, well then we can know we tried to treat others the same regardless of their belief system. We can understand others' points of view despite our own. We can let them know that we don't think they're going to hell for denouncing Christ or Buddha, or for embracing either. If we do good, it's because we want to not because we want some God to look favorably (more so than our neighbors) on us. If we do bad, it's because we decided, not because the devil influenced us in any way. In short (or long!), Loone, we are humans, man. God seeks to divide, but we seek to unite. There is nothing so evil as God, and nothing so greater than God, than man. thanks! prag
To the Glory of God! Hello, Pregmathen, You that no not God, is tuned to the frequency of 'Evil', if you think God is evil your very confused about realty. The Devil can easily come into an unbeliever, and make such statements. And can make such statements on there own! But the Devil is the 'bad guy' and GOD is the Creator of everything, Heaven and Earth and elsware. You are created though fallen ,created in the image of God, and the Devil would just have us ultimately destroyed, mind, body, soul, and spirit! Pragmathen, your on the wrong frequency! Tune into the Gospel Truth! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Love, Joy, Pease, meaning and purpose to life, and life everlasting! Being mislead of the Evil one! Jesus still loves you and could save you, so that you can use all that mind power to the Glory of your Creator!Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Loone, If we consider for a moment the hypothetical notion that God and the Devil exist, then we should review their alleged properties to see who is truly good and who is evil. Some characteristics of GOD: He gives commands and expects them to be obeyed without question. He threatens people with eternal torture if they question his authority. He has killed countless millions of people because they displeased him. He has provided a violent and dangerous world for people to live. He allows people to suffer from terrible and agonizing deceases. He expects people to accept the bible without exercising critical thought. These are the actions of a tyrant, a torturer, a murderer, a slave master, a terrorist, and a censor of freedom of thought. These are the very essences for which many millions of people have fought wars to overcome. Some of these actions are similar to the dictator Adolf Hitler, who had similar visions and desires – tyranny, censorship, abolition of freedom, mass murder. These are the traits of EVIL. Some characteristics of the Devil He tells the truth (e.g. tells Eve that she won’t die if she eats the apple). He encourages freedom of thought. He encourages people to question errant authority. He encourages imaginative and creative thinking. He encourages independent thought. He encourages people to question everything. These are the actions of wisdom and the encouragement one might expect from a loving father who cares deeply for his children. He knows that the world is dangerous, and knows that children must learn hard truths and be able to stand on their own if they are to survive. He encourages actions that support and prolong life. These are the traits of GOOD. It seems to me that if these two beings existed then the truly evil one would have been able to convince the gullible and ignorant among us of all the things that are bad are indeed good. This seems to fit very well the teachings of Christianity, since those who are able to think clearly can see with little doubt, are truly counter to health, survival, and life. You are an excellent example of someone who has been convinced that being ignorant is good, to not use your mind to help survive is good, to accept without question (sheeplike) is good, to accept mythology as if it were true, and to accept the incredible as if it were credible. In short you have sold your soul to a true evil tyrant – the Christian God. And unfortunately you are completely unable to perceive that this could be wrong. He has completely blinded you to wisdom and independent thought – you have become a slave to ignorance. But your bible teaches that these are good things, that wisdom is bad, that free thought is bad. Take a single moment to think for yourself. You have everything reversed. You have been misled my poor friend. Free yourself from your chosen enslavement. THINK FOR YOURSELF – I DARE YOU. But I doubt you can since I expect you would be terrified to leave the perceived safety of the religious cloak that you hide behind. Terror again is the trait of your truly evil religion. As a final thought: Consider this, if you truly loved someone deeply would you ever threaten them with eternal torture. If you truly loved them and they had made mistakes wouldn't you do everthing possible to help them. Someone who truly loves will never make threats - that would be evil - and that is your god. Survive if you can. I wish you luck. Cris
To the Glory of God! Cris, God is the Supreme Being and there is nothing you can do about Him! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! You will have to live and learn, and hopefully not to find out too late what is 'real' (fact or fiction) or not ! The Devil is real and probably using you and you may or may not even know it. He's the master deceiver and will use your 'scorn' , egos, arrogance and to manipulate you like a puppet ! I say again, that you are out side of Christ and no not the Word of God is a Spiritual book and can not be interpreted by pure earthly intellect alone! You have only spoken errors and misconceptions of the Scriptures and have no [real] understanding of them. Your comments can be a danger to you about the Bible if you would not come to a saving knowledge of the truth and come to Jesus for the forgiveness of sins.! All that was not confessed to God about these blasphemes about Bible and the words there in will come back on those that do these things at the Great White Throne of Judgement, to your shame. We Christians are covered by Jesus's supreme sacrifice, and no matter what your thinking of Christianity, and the condemnation of it, we will be the one's who will Judge! Jesus can save any one that will come unto Him for the forgiveness of many sins!
May the most glorified God uphold His claim on the next Judgement day. Slipping deadlines really does no good on His credit report. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
To the Glory of God! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Dakpaklakpak, you joker!Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Jesus is coming soon! Soon to Earth to set us free, totally from the power of the Evil One! "Prepare ye the way of the Lord!" The tree has grown, the leaves are green, and the flower is about to bud, and will soon be be in full bloom. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
